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PvP and PvE, can they coexist ?

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
edited October 2019 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Everyone knows i'm a major Vanilla WoW fan, and I wasn't around during Eq1 during the early days to know if PvP was good or not. 
 

But here's my take on PvP regardless of being a WoW fan: 
Vanilla WoW was the only mmorpg that got open world PvP right.  Since then many tried and failed. 

Even still that was A LOT OF LUCK that PvP fit naturally in the world.  Other reasons why it fit naturally was because the world was HUGE and spread out where it could be avoided "or" you had to search it out. 

Because the game was HUGE the player was capable of playing strictly PvP if wanted and barely interfering with PvE safety if that player decided to not...... HUGE world is the key to it all !

PvP fans will argue this, why ?..... Because they love PvP and they want it all the time, but in every case it leaves the strict or part time PvE players behind.

Vanilla WoW was extremely large at release.  No one ever touched the size of the world, however Vanguard came close but the world had empty spots.  
 
Think about this:
In playing Classic WoW...... Ever notice how mad PvE players get when they get attacked ? 
So mad they feel compelled to tell their Guild or World chat.  That's because it rare, a surprise, or 2% of a HUGE game.  


Reference a movie called "Escape from New York"
Where all the murderers and violent people were placed behind the walls of NY city.
PvP was inevitable and couldn't be avoided WITHOUT SOLUTION.  
Post edited by delete5230 on
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Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    pvp in a rpg=two thumbs down

    I am too tired to write a huge post explaining it ..again.it does NOT work and never will.

    PVP works when everyone is there for the same reason,to pvp.Once you allow pvp to disrupt what others want from their gaming experience,you have created a toxic game.
    There are a LOT of people in this world who always THINK about themselves without considering the other people/players.

    Here is a thought..

    Just maybe some of us do NOT care about the BIG world,we do NOT want to be looking over our shoulder,we want  to game in a RELAXING atmosphere doing what WE want to do without some other player forcing his agenda on us.




    Scotdelete5230sumdumguy1rojoArcueidAlBQuirkybarasawaDeadSpock

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825
    Wizardry said:
    pvp in a rpg=two thumbs down

    I am too tired to write a huge post explaining it ..again.it does NOT work and never will.

    PVP works when everyone is there for the same reason,to pvp.Once you allow pvp to disrupt what others want from their gaming experience,you have created a toxic game.
    There are a LOT of people in this world who always THINK about themselves without considering the other people/players.

    Here is a thought..

    Just maybe some of us do NOT care about the BIG world,we do NOT want to be looking over our shoulder,we want  to game in a RELAXING atmosphere doing what WE want to do without some other player forcing his agenda on us.

    This is why zoned PvP is better and Realm verses Realm is the best. You have more reasons to PvP when it is realm versus yet you can still ignore it if you want to.
    RungarHatefullKyleranAlBQuirkyultimateduck
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    edited October 2019
    pvp and pve can coexist but what cant coexist is pve raids and pvp. One will always eat the other and both will suffer for it.

    so if you have a primarily pvp game you stop at dungeons and if you have a primarily pve game with raiding  you don't have pvp or just have limited pvp. 

    to expand on this if you have a primarily pvp game you have what i call warfronts for pve instead of raids. A warfront is just a very large open ended dungeon that plays like a pvp style campaign.  it has pve objectives, but anyone can join to the limits of the technology.  It has a start and a finish and everyone can contribute sort of like how pvp is. 

    Raids  have a certain culture that grows around them and forces exclusivity of gameplay because the nature of the controlled raid environment requires extreme efficiency above all else. This  is like a very vocal poison for the rest of the game and infects the rest of the game with its narrow ideas to the detriment of the rest of the game.  

    so you instead provide an uncontrolled environment for pve which will avoid most of the downsides while still providing interesting pve content. 



    .05 of a second to midnight
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Wizardry said:
    pvp in a rpg=two thumbs down

    I am too tired to write a huge post explaining it ..again.it does NOT work and never will.

    PVP works when everyone is there for the same reason,to pvp.Once you allow pvp to disrupt what others want from their gaming experience,you have created a toxic game.
    There are a LOT of people in this world who always THINK about themselves without considering the other people/players.

    Here is a thought..

    Just maybe some of us do NOT care about the BIG world,we do NOT want to be looking over our shoulder,we want  to game in a RELAXING atmosphere doing what WE want to do without some other player forcing his agenda on us.




    Nice post @Wizaddry
    I'm not a fan of PvP, just stating my opinion of how it can work if it came down to it.

    However to contradict myself, I like my Rogue to be capable of PvP when i'm in the rare mood.

    I love your statement about thoughtless people too..... Well worded !
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Ashes of Creation,
    Because of reasons above (must be a HUGE WORLD), this game will be a big let down to PvE fans.

    They can spin the ruleset anyway they like.  They can "think they found the solution" to coexist all they like...... Absolutely not !


    Players have no choice but to mold their game play to design. 

    It will turn strictly PvP, 
    At a geometric rate, the PvE players will leave, turning it to deeper PvP.
  • TaishiFoxTaishiFox Member RarePosts: 999
    imo WAR (Warhammer Online) was good for PVE/P game, however they did have certain areas for PVP so you weren't ganked in PVE. imo it depends how it's done, I personally can't stand open world PVP as you get ganked while trying to level on a constant basis and that to me just isn't fun.
    sumdumguy1

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  • thamighty213thamighty213 Member UncommonPosts: 1,637
    edited October 2019
    yep done in a GW2 or ESO style with a large pvp world seperate from the PVE world.

    But even then the other side of the PVE/PVP debate comes in and thats class balance.  How often do you find a certain class is FOTM for PVP because it was buffed as underperforming in PVE or vice versa and a class nerfed because of PVP prowess that it becomes absolutely useless in PVE.

    I'veseen a few games get the PVP right and the PVE right but never the class balance right when they co-exist


  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    edited October 2019
    Eso's pvp community has greatly suffered its trial community. Barely anyone pvp's anymore  except the minimal amount to get transmutation stones and pvp content updates are few and far between. 
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825
    edited October 2019
    TaishiFox said:
    imo WAR (Warhammer Online) was good for PVE/P game, however they did have certain areas for PVP so you weren't ganked in PVE. imo it depends how it's done, I personally can't stand open world PVP as you get ganked while trying to level on a constant basis and that to me just isn't fun.
    Two problems with WO, the PVP zones were not as good as we hoped, but also the classic error of having a second PVP mechanic. Something that was more fun than zone PVP, the Scenarios I think they were called? These little fights had members of the guild forgetting to level up in the PvE game as well as impacting PvP. This same issue effected SWTOR, the PVP zone was abandoned once Hutball and such launched.

    The only to solve this is to make the PvP zone more exciting and give different PvP rewards, if you give the same rewards for any element of a MMO be it PvP or PvE players will always go down the easy path.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Scot said:
    TaishiFox said:
    imo WAR (Warhammer Online) was good for PVE/P game, however they did have certain areas for PVP so you weren't ganked in PVE. imo it depends how it's done, I personally can't stand open world PVP as you get ganked while trying to level on a constant basis and that to me just isn't fun.
    Two problems with WO, the PVP zones were not as good as we hoped, but also the classic error of having a second PVP mechanic. Something that was more fun than zone PVP, the Scenarios I think they were called? These little fights had members of the guild forgetting to level up in the PvE game as well as impacting PvP.
    The reason Scenarios were popular was only because developers shifted "all level experience" to them..... People instantly flocked to Scenarios because of this reason. 

    I remember this was fact as clear as day.
    Scot
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    just because its a pve environment doesnt mean you cant have realm vs realm elements in your pve campaigns. 

    ideally in a pvp game you still have elements of pvp in the form of realm vs realm competition even in the pve. You just wont have players fighting other players. The three opposing factions need never meet eachother in combat to have this in the game and it bridges the gap between the different playstyles. 
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    FOr me it was never fun to be killing mobs in an area, then some high level jerk one shots me and corpse camps. PVP is only fun if you're the wolf, not the lamb.
    sumdumguy1dragonlee66
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    It really depends.

    RvR works, also GvG works.
    WoW is RvR that’s why it works.

    What doesn’t work in MMORPGs is the KOS type of PvP, with no rules and on top of that, FFA loot.

    I just don’t get how developers don’t get it, they keep making this crap and failing miserably.
    Last one is Aria.

    Competitive PvP is for Mobas, not for MMORPGs.
    delete5230Kyleran
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    FOr me it was never fun to be killing mobs in an area, then some high level jerk one shots me and corpse camps. PVP is only fun if you're the wolf, not the lamb.
    FOr me it was never fun to be killing mobs in an area, then some high level jerk one shots me and corpse camps. PVP is only fun if you're the wolf, not the lamb.
    Agree,
    Its only fun if: 
    -the fight is on equal terms.
    -not zerged.
    -and most important, I'm in the mood and that not too often.  
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    DAoC4VR
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  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,056
    Define coexist....open world or just in the game? Because I think DAoC and Warhammer Online proved they could certainly coexist in a game. 
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  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,056
    edited October 2019
    TEKK3N said:
    It really depends.

    RvR works, also GvG works.
    WoW is RvR that’s why it works.

    What doesn’t work in MMORPGs is the KOS type of PvP, with no rules and on top of that, FFA loot.

    I just don’t get how developers don’t get it, they keep making this crap and failing miserably.
    Last one is Aria.

    Competitive PvP is for Mobas, not for MMORPGs.


    There is a difference between RvR and faction based pvp imo. WoW is faction based pvp, not RvR. True RvR games have battlefields designated for RvR warfare with objectives and such. Faction based pvp is just open world pvp with sides and zero purpose, all of which shares that same space with PvE. 
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • sumdumguy1sumdumguy1 Member RarePosts: 1,373
    edited October 2019
    FOr me it was never fun to be killing mobs in an area, then some high level jerk one shots me and corpse camps. PVP is only fun if you're the wolf, not the lamb.
    This right here so much.  Far and away the biggest complaint by game players when it comes to open world pvp.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    edited October 2019
    I think space and time as a deterrent in PvP is highly underrated.  My ideal for PvP was something you actually had to seek it.  Content would be procedural and localized so you may travel the size of typical MMORPG but you were just in a small region of the world that is friendly to you.  If you traveled far you could find unfriendly factions but you are also on hostile territory.  
    Lokero
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,685
    edited October 2019
    Rather than "Can they coexist?", a better question IMHO is "SHOULD they coexist?" and "Why?"
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    I think space and time as a deterrent in PvP is highly underrated.  My ideal for PvP was something you actually had to seek it.  Content would be procedural and localized so you may travel the size of typical MMORPG but you were just in a small region of the world that is friendly to you.  If you traveled far you could find unfriendly factions but you are also on hostile territory.  
    Exactly, a large game world
    MY vanilla wow example was exactly that. 
    Alliance would travel all the way to the Barrens, Horde would travel all the way to Darkshire, and Southshore, and Blackrock was common grounds..... You had to work for it other than sparse random events.

    You would have to put in the effort if wanted. Also easy to avoid. 
  • GroqstrongGroqstrong Member RarePosts: 815
    edited October 2019
    WoW worked because the population was there to support open world pvp, can you imagine open world pvp on a dead server.  Rift and Aion also did an excellent job of open world pvp.
  • thamighty213thamighty213 Member UncommonPosts: 1,637
    WoW worked because the population was there to support open world pvp, can you imagine open world pvp on a dead server.  Rift and Aion also did an excellent job of open world pvp.
    loved Aions open world when you would rift in to the opposing factions lands, that was a great example as you couldnt perma go in there and camp you were taking a risk going in at all because as soon as you were spotted you knew a force would be coming for you. when they killed rifting is when I left.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    delete5230 said:
    FOr me it was never fun to be killing mobs in an area, then some high level jerk one shots me and corpse camps. PVP is only fun if you're the wolf, not the lamb.
    Agree,
    Its only fun if: 
    -the fight is on equal terms.
    -not zerged.
    -and most important, I'm in the mood and that not too often.  
    I imagine that's the number one reason most people hate OW PVP.

    This isn't even a PVE vs PVP issue, so much as a terrible game design one.
    Any time you can one shot someone is just not going to work for PVP.

    I mean, yeah if you gank a dude at 10 health, of course.  But, in that case, the problem is usually that someone has total-invisibility-stealth, which is also bad game design.

    I like PVP, and would even prefer an open world that included PVP... if it was designed well.  But, as has been mentioned, there's nothing fun about invisible people lurking around watching you until you get low health and then finish you off.

    PVP is rarely designed well in MMOs.  You just can't have FPS-style head-shotting in an MMORPG.  A PVP fight needs to be a bit longer-lasting and slow-paced in an MMO to make up for the class variances. 

    In other words, a fight needs to last long enough for the class imbalance to be countered by strategy, knowledge, and skill.

    That last point @delete5230 is a tough one.  I think there are times when most just want to be left alone and get things finished without having to watch over both shoulders.  I guess that's why people were fond of the SWG flagging system and such, even though it was kind of kooky.
    Arglebargle
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    I don't really know.  It's a good question, @Delete5230.

    Most games have put too much effort into one side or the other, PvP or PvE.  The game mechanics weren't compatible.  Here's my view of how EQ1 tackled the problems.

    In EQ1, a level 5 character might have 200 HPs, while a typical mob of the same level probably had 2x-4x that many HPs.  The PvE was balanced so that the player's weapons would do enough damage to reduce that bloated mob HPs to zero at a relative predictable pace.  Those same PvE weapons and HPs didn't work against another player (in PvP).  There needed to be substantial changes in the game mechanics to make the damage/HPs work.  Essentially, this created separate mechanics depending on the target, a mob (PvE) or a character (PvP).  The desire to include PvP caused much additional work for the developers, and it was very difficult to balance.

    Can PvE and PvP mechanics co-exist?  Yes, but the game has to be designed with both aspects in mind.  DAoC and other games had pretty reasonable games with dual-purpose mechanics.

    The bigger challenge for including PvP is the social/behavioral aspects of PvP.  A PvP player can initiate a fight without regards to what the second player wants to do.  The PvE player wants some places where there is safe, where they can engage in non-combat activities when they choose.  This desire can be accommodated with specific 'rules' for different areas that define the nature of the player-to-player conflicts permitted.

    So, there are mechanics that can allow equal PvP, and mechanics to divide the game world into regions with differing rules.  The final hurdle is the person.  Can a game entice a person to engage in activity that they don't like?  Even if I find the game to be otherwise fair and equitable, the PvP activity doesn't appeal to me personally, and I probably won't play that game for long.



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