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Myth busters # 1 - Pantheon is not largely investor funded

KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,399
First in a series of critical looks at the many myths around crowd funded game efforts.

This direct quote from the September Dev blog completely dismisses the long running myth which has been propagated about Pantheon being largely investor or  self funded.  (Perhaps at the beginning, not any more)

”I wanted to take a moment to talk a little about how Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen is funded, and to introduce our newest revenue generator.

As you probably already know, the bulk of our funding comes directly from you, through crowdfundingYour pledges allow us to keep the lights on and keep the team fed. Any time we see an increase in revenue, our creative and finance folks put their heads together to decide where it can best be invested in Pantheon. Do we bring on a permanent team member? Do we hire an outside contractor? Do we buy new tools? Or something else entirely? This process keeps us nimble in development and can accelerate production timelines.”

“From the entire team, thanks for your continued support to bring Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen to life. We couldn’t do it without you.”

We who live under the bridge well understand the reality of any situation, even when others are still blinded by the white light.   >:) 

https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_september_underwraps/

"See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






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Comments

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,689
    That is interesting (and alarming). I have long believed that Pantheon had one or more actual major investors, and the funding from pledges, forum charges, coffee mugs and whatever were just extra money that might finance a specific project  (e.g., longer dwarf beards or something). 

    But if this is how it works, how do you plan anything? Just wait to the end of every month and see what came in? How do you hire people on that basis? "Bob, we would love to have you as a programmer. Each month we will check our pledges and see if we can keep you another month." Who takes that job?

    This looks more like making people feel good about sending them money (so you don't think they have enough). But if it's really how it is, this game will be worked on for another decade.


    MendelKyleran

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,519
    Hopefully they aren't secretly getting a bulk of their funding from a certain few countries I could think of.
    MendelbcbullyKyleranPhry
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
  • bng28bng28 Member UncommonPosts: 70
    Amathe said:
    That is interesting (and alarming). I have long believed that Pantheon had one or more actual major investors, and the funding from pledges, forum charges, coffee mugs and whatever were just extra money that might finance a specific project  (e.g., longer dwarf beards or something). 

    But if this is how it works, how do you plan anything? Just wait to the end of every month and see what came in? How do you hire people on that basis? "Bob, we would love to have you as a programmer. Each month we will check our pledges and see if we can keep you another month." Who takes that job?

    This looks more like making people feel good about sending them money (so you don't think they have enough). But if it's really how it is, this game will be worked on for another decade.


    They have said before that they have received enough money to fund the game through launch and dont quote me but im fairly certain that they have had an angel investor(s).  To what extent that means, is anyones guess.
    Mendel
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,082
    edited October 2019
    Kyleran, that’s marketing talk, as I explained to you in the other thread.

    He had to promote new Funders Packs and the bullshit shop (no he is not selling his blood like someone else, just normal mugs).
    Do you seriously think that admitting no one was buying the old Packs would have been a good incentive for people to buy the new ones?

    Pantheon didn’t have much money to start with, it was a matter of time until they started to rely on serious crowdfunded money.

    Was it a lie when he said that the money they had would suffice to finish the game?
    Maybe.
    But then everyone in the game industry is a liar, as most games go over budget and get released half finished, and that’s coming from AAA publishers.

    So expecting an Indie developer to stay within budget and on time, it’s a bit of a stretch.
    Don’t you think?

    Also I have the feeling there won’t be a #2 of this series of yours... that’s just my gut feeling ;)
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,689
    TEKK3N said:


    Also I have the feeling there won’t be a #2 of this series of yours... that’s just my gut feeling ;)
    No, you can't leave us hanging bro!

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,888
    They have been up front about this for a long time. Its from fans where the majority has been coming from. This also includes angel investors. 
    Catibrie



  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,674
    Nanfoodle said:
    They have been up front about this for a long time. Its from fans where the majority has been coming from. This also includes angel investors. 
    I'd like to believe that VR has been totally upfront about funding.  How do you correlate the "the majority from fans" idea with their statement (on several occasions) that they have enough money "to continue through launch"?  Those two ideas/sentiments/statements are at direct odds with one another.



    Kyleran

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,674
    Tiller said:
    Hopefully they aren't secretly getting a bulk of their funding from a certain few countries I could think of.
    Name that country and close a thread!  I got a good laugh from this one, @Tiller .



    KyleranTiller

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,603
    Kyle is just angling for his own reality TV series.
    Kyleranblueturtle13
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

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    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,399
    edited October 2019
    TEKK3N said:

    So expecting an Indie developer to stay within budget and on time, it’s a bit of a stretch.
    Don’t you think?

    Also I have the feeling there won’t be a #2 of this series of yours... that’s just my gut feeling ;)
    I completely agree with you, I never expected any of these indie MMOs to be built for the paltry sums of money they've raised and certainly not within the stated timeframes.

    It's just several of them (not Brad) actually argued with me and others on these and other forums that they had a way to pull both off, which even we armchair developers knew were total BS.

    It is no defense that "everyone does it," Mom used to say, if everyone was jumping off a bridge would you do it?

    Pointing at AAAs is a strawman at best, rarely do they require up front money from any customer to build their game, so not applicable.

    Finally the last justification which bothers me the most, people saying if Devs had been more truthful likely none of these games would have been made...to that I say, so be it.

    As Rorshach said in the Watchmen, "never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon...."


    pantaro

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 479
    I thought this was old news but maybe I am wrong, so hard keeping up with all this crap anymore. Wake me up when the game is out, that's all I care about at this point.
    Timukas
  • EQN13EQN13 Member UncommonPosts: 24
    i pledged but i think my money was a vacation for brad and nothing went to pantheon at this point.  ordered a shirt. it's terrible. I let my cat use it as a bed. I never wore it. 
    Basically, like the poster above, wake me up IF this game isn't vaporware. I seriously think they are just BS-ing when they say they have investors or are funded to release. Not buying it Brad. 
    Amathe
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 22,289
    edited October 2019
    I honestly think it doesnt matter at this point.

    I donated my money to Pantheon knowing that it is a 100% donation with zero guarantees.

    If the game is not good enough to get more money to finish then its fine I'd rather them give up on it then deliver another disappointment. 

    I just have this feeling that they hit a wall in development and are not certain how to get past it.


    TimukasKyleranHatefullMendelSovrathConstantineMerus
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,399
    edited October 2019
    DMKano said:
    I honestly think it doesnt matter at this point.

    I donated my money to Pantheon knowing that it is a 100% donation with zero guarantees.

    If the game is not good enough to get more money to finish then its fine I'd rather them give up on it then deliver another disappointment. 

    I just have this feeling that they hit a wall in development and are not certain how to get past it.


    Either that or their burn rate has finally caught up with them and exhausted their original funding.

    Games really can't have indefinite development cycles unless they can keep the crowd funding steadily rolling in like RI and SBS have managed to do so far.

    CU and CF appear to be running on the investor funding both received around the start of 2018, but even they can't go on forever.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MagnusAlanMagnusAlan Member UncommonPosts: 13
    They claim to be funded through to launch, but also to have no idea when that will be.  These statements are mutually exclusive.
    KyleranRnjypsygoldwheatbcbullyTenacio
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,399
    They claim to be funded through to launch, but also to have no idea when that will be.  These statements are mutually exclusive.
    They used to claim this, as of the Sep newsletter they now state they are relying on crowd funding to keep the lights on.

    Burn rates are real.


    Amathe

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,664
    edited October 2019
    Maybe this one will get nominated for forum discussion thread of the month? ;)

    Ok enough of me pulling the cats tail, the whole CF idea for MMORPG's has a question mark over it, but for me that's as far as it goes. Let me remind everyone that is we don't get one success in its own terms that's the end of us getting a new MMO we want to play for who knows how long? If one of the ones coming out (hopefully) in the next handful of years is not a success that is the death knell for indie MMOs. Well unless a new one could secure independent investment which is going to be nigh impossible after a litany of failures.

    We are unlikely to get anything that even has AA production values that originates in the West from the major players. Now while I was impressed by certain systems in MMOs like BDO, overall they are still at heart the grindy loreless games that have always produced in the East (FF XIV the honourable exception).

    So you can call me an optimist but I think I am more of a realist, it is either this current batch or we are done for. No one is going to touch a CF MMO with a 10ft adventurers pole if one of these is not a success. But if that's the way it pans out after launch we have to face up to it, after all before these CF MMOs started we were already more or less resigned to that position.
    Mendel

     25 Agrees

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,096
    edited October 2019
    Maybe i am arrogant idk but i seldom listen to other people lol.
    I always figured this was a low budget game,you have likely heard me mention it many times.
    Something i also said that i never see talked about by anyone,dev or yeah anyone is the fact that it is possible to make a good game on a low budget but it is really tough and MUST be a very small game to start.

    IMO there are a few ideas to creating longevity and keeping players happy on a low budget smallish game.This is a biggie and only one other game i remember has done it and that is the sub class design.I am not talking about those lame systems where you hit level 30 then pick a new class arch type,those designs are garbage.I am talking about being able to play EVERY single class in the game on the SAME player thereby advancing that player with more skills and abilities and versatility over time.

    It also keeps low level zones busy for a very long time instead of how we see games played now where everyone is at some end zone/raid within a month and everywhere else is dead.Then of course you need a quality character combat design so that players WANT to try and play al lthe classes which again keeps all the zones busy and players happy without needing tons of content/zones/quests.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,096
    Is this team capable of doing what i just said....well if you remember what i have been saying,not likely,at least i am very skeptical until i see something that changes my mind.
    i have also however wished this game luck,i WANT it to be a really good game,i WANT to play it but it has to be good or i am not giving it a second glance.

     I have said many times that an EQ1.5 is NOT a good idea.All you will do is attain a very niche old school crowd and a small one at that.There is no reason to NOT aim for a large audience,it is possible but need some good minds to pull it off.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,399
    edited October 2019
    Scot said:
    Maybe this one will get nominated for forum discussion thread of the month? ;)

    Ok enough of me pulling the cats tail, the whole CF idea for MMORPG's has a question mark over it, but for me that's as far as it goes. Let me remind everyone that is we don't get one success in its own terms that's the end of us getting a new MMO we want to play for who knows how long? If one of the ones coming out (hopefully) in the next handful of years is not a success that is the death knell for indie MMOs. Well unless a new one could secure independent investment which is going to be nigh impossible after a litany of failures.

    We are unlikely to get anything that even has AA production values that originates in the West from the major players. Now while I was impressed by certain systems in MMOs like BDO, overall they are still at heart the grindy loreless games that have always produced in the East (FF XIV the honourable exception).

    So you can call me an optimist but I think I am more of a realist, it is either this current batch or we are done for. No one is going to touch a CF MMO with a 10ft adventurers pole if one of these is not a success. But if that's the way it pans out after launch we have to face up to it, after all before these CF MMOs started we were already more or less resigned to that position.
    I saw similar arguments recently put forth by the backers of COE with regards to their enthusiastic purchases during the DS and KServersary.

    The fear of the game's failure being the end of their dream of getting the MMORPG they've always wanted.

    Maybe, just maybe, the dream was never real in the first place with most of these indie game efforts futilely chasing the "dying light."

    MMORPGs are dead. Long live MMORPGs.
    MendelScot

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,664
    edited October 2019
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    Maybe this one will get nominated for forum discussion thread of the month? ;)

    Ok enough of me pulling the cats tail, the whole CF idea for MMORPG's has a question mark over it, but for me that's as far as it goes. Let me remind everyone that is we don't get one success in its own terms that's the end of us getting a new MMO we want to play for who knows how long? If one of the ones coming out (hopefully) in the next handful of years is not a success that is the death knell for indie MMOs. Well unless a new one could secure independent investment which is going to be nigh impossible after a litany of failures.

    We are unlikely to get anything that even has AA production values that originates in the West from the major players. Now while I was impressed by certain systems in MMOs like BDO, overall they are still at heart the grindy loreless games that have always produced in the East (FF XIV the honourable exception).

    So you can call me an optimist but I think I am more of a realist, it is either this current batch or we are done for. No one is going to touch a CF MMO with a 10ft adventurers pole if one of these is not a success. But if that's the way it pans out after launch we have to face up to it, after all before these CF MMOs started we were already more or less resigned to that position.
    I saw similar arguments recently put forth by the backers of COE with regards to their enthusiastic purchases during the DS and KServersary.

    The fear of the game's failure being the end of their dream of getting the MMORPG they've always wanted.

    Maybe, just maybe, the dream was never real in the first place with most of these indie game efforts futilely chasing the "dying light."

    MMORPGs are dead. Long live MMORPGs.
    To say the dream was not real, about four MMORPG's would have to launch and not get the players need for a solid MMORPG. So too early to raise that question as yet. Let be redo that last line for you:

    MMORPGs are dead. Long live MMO's. But with strange aeons, even death may die.

    Maybe we hoped for too soon a turn around? Well in about three to four years we will know for sure. :)

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • goldwheatgoldwheat Member UncommonPosts: 23
    edited October 2019
    <wrong thread>
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,689
    Kyleran said:

    I saw similar arguments recently put forth by the backers of COE with regards to their enthusiastic purchases during the DS and KServersary.

    The fear of the game's failure being the end of their dream of getting the MMORPG they've always wanted.


    Speaking only for myself, I do not regard Pantheon as the last great hope for mmorpgs. 

    To me, Everquest 3 might be that, someday when someone makes it. 

    If I just want an old school game I can (someday) play Saga of Lucimia, which seems to be getting work done at a respectable clip with a minimum of drama. 

    Pantheon looks interesting. But it is looking more and more like it won't be finished for 10 years.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,287
    DMKano said:
    I honestly think it doesnt matter at this point.

    I donated my money to Pantheon knowing that it is a 100% donation with zero guarantees.

    If the game is not good enough to get more money to finish then its fine I'd rather them give up on it then deliver another disappointment. 

    I just have this feeling that they hit a wall in development and are not certain how to get past it.


    Your #2 point is so often lost on people. Its a donation until they release a game, then it's an investment.

    I do hope they get past this block (agreeing with you) this is a game I have been quietly keeping an eye on.
    svann

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,693
    I leave for a few months and they give you your own TV show? Can I be a guest? pLeaSe!?
    Kyleran
    Constantine, The Console Poster

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