Action combat: Taken too far in ESO?

Rungar · October 2019

my opinion is that all mmo players really wanted for action combat was the ability to block and roll dodge on demand. Eso ran with the action combat theme at the time to an offensive way to improve damage ( animation cancelling) that involved alot of clicking and practice training, at least for those who didnt find a way around it.

do you think they went to far in the quest to provide action combat? You cant have a real discussion on the eso site because of all the aggressive defenders they have there so ill post it here instead.

Noobmaster_95 · October 2019

Of course they went too far, ppl who say it's great are probably company's bots

Theocritus · October 2019

The combat absolutely ruined ESO...I have no idea how anyone can play that beyond a couple of weeks.

cameltosis · October 2019

The combat is the primary reason I didn't stick with ESO.

But, that's because action combat is shallow (or, at least in every game i've played) and I require depth in my combat systems. If the combat is shallow, it means you can master it within a few minutes, perhaps hours. Once you've mastered it, it then becomes boring. Which is what happened to me - about 1 hour into the game, the combat started feeling boring. I stuck with it, tried to push through the pain to unlock more skills/upgrades/etc, but it remained boring.

So, I'm not sure what you mean by "gone too far". All action combat sucks, especially in MMOs. ESO doesn't seem to have done a particularly bad job (though, going from wildstar to eso did make me feel like i was going back in time 10 years to some sluggish hell).

Is it purely the animation cancelling that is bothering you?

If so, kinda tough luck right? Devs admitted their mistake, then told the world they weren't going to fix it. ESO isn't a game for skilled players, that isn't their target market, so I imagine that the vast majority of their playerbase don't care as it doesn't affect them.

Jakdstripper · October 2019

what is the point of combat animation if, in order to remain competitive, you are forced to cancel it anyways? cancelling animation is not a higher level of skill, it's a higher level of annoyance. just and added layer of clunkyness and retarded button mashing. if there are animations, you shouldn't be able to cancel them.

bcbully · October 2019

ESO has the most heart pounding visceral combat I’ve ever experienced in an mmorpg.

is it that hard to hold your heavy attack the hit a skill? Lmao go back to wow.

fcwedd · October 2019

I just want simple action combat, e.g., Zelda.

Tiller · October 2019

I thought it sucked when I first tried it; not gonna lie. I went back a year later and got into the game a bit more and found that there are some tactics to fights if you play it that way, not sure whether by design or accident but I've had some intense and fun battles. It's not always pool noodle combat action if you really plan you attacks. If you want clicker heroes spam action you can certainly play it that way, though it won't be fun.

If you wanna talk about terrible combat mechanics try the ground game in STO, man that is a shit show, It's got attacks that won't fire when hit, getting stuck on objects while moving, sometimes attacks go through walls, other times not, animation canceling all over the place, yet I still play it lol.

Aeander · October 2019

When I think Action Combat, I don't think ESO. I think Blade and Soul. Now THAT'S a great action combat system. (Shame the game built around it isn't very good).

thamighty213 · October 2019

bcbully said:

ESO has the most heart pounding visceral combat I’ve ever experienced in an mmorpg.

is it that hard to hold your heavy attack the hit a skill? Lmao go back to wow.

are you joking ?

swing giant sword dont even feel like your connecting with something other than air.

Its combat system and auction house or lack of ruin whats IMO the best mmo out there, world, lore, visuals, storylines are all absolutely superb utterly destroyed by uninspiring classes (aside warden) terrible combat and a few fundamental mmo features being missing

gervaise1 · October 2019

Rhoklaw said:

When I hear "animation cancelling" what I'm really hearing is "legitimate exploitation" and thanks to lazy developers, it makes their game suck.

Any game with a global cooldown has animation cancelling. So you must believe that an awful lot of developers were lazy yes?

As for "legitimate exploitation" then you probably have a point. Games e.g. WoW do indeed have macros designed to cast the next "power" exactly when the global cooldown expires.

Ironically there is a strong argument that things that track gcds and say cast now etc. are not common in ESO. There is no gcd so no need to track that. Nor can you simply "chain cast" since casting is driven by resource and your ability to replenish it. Stuff to track how much damage etc. you do does exist but that is more a "training" aid rather than a "do it for you" aid.

As for anyone wanting "deep combat" - as @cameltosis says - you should be playing other games.

Aeander · October 2019

Torval said:

Not 'too far', but not far enough. That is they didn't finish and tighten up the system. I like the combat in ESO, but not the animation cancelling. Overall it still feels pretty solid.

Great MMO action combat is Neverwinter Online. It offers a great balance of mobility along with animation locking. The great thing is that you can interrupt actions, up to a point, but the skill doesn't execute. That's why the mobility feels better than many games in my opinion. It's punch and smooth. The rest of the game is a wreck.

Blade and Soul has decent combat, not as good as Neverwinter. Wolcen (not an MMO) has great combat. This is the stuff I'd like to see in an MMO. I really hope they finish that game well. It could be so cool.

ESO combat is like the rest of the game, above average but could have been so much better. The problem isn't that the combat or game is bad, it's that it lets you see how much better it could have been and that can be a drag.

Funny, I always thought that Neverwinter was too rigid and locked in. I didn't care for it much.

I suppose where one draws the line on animation locking is a matter of taste.

gervaise1 · October 2019

Jakdstripper said:

what is the point of combat animation if, in order to remain competitive, you are forced to cancel it anyways? cancelling animation is not a higher level of skill, it's a higher level of annoyance. just and added layer of clunkyness and retarded button mashing. if there are animations, you shouldn't be able to cancel them.

People like "pretty". Which is why games have them. The animations however can mess other things up however. SWTOR had multiple issues around gcds when it launched for example.

Nor is there anything to stop people waiting until the animations play out. Now there may be consequences. More deaths maybe but if you are solo no big deal if that is how you want to play. Multi-player though - yeah: "Why did't you heal me?", "I was just waiting for the animation for that buff I cast to finish", "Wtf!".

Which is why you get macros that track gcds.

alkarionlog · October 2019

action combat in eso is too lazy made, I could even say its hardly a "action" combat, aion had more action then eso did

Aeander · October 2019

Torval said:

Aeander said:

Torval said:

Not 'too far', but not far enough. That is they didn't finish and tighten up the system. I like the combat in ESO, but not the animation cancelling. Overall it still feels pretty solid.

Great MMO action combat is Neverwinter Online. It offers a great balance of mobility along with animation locking. The great thing is that you can interrupt actions, up to a point, but the skill doesn't execute. That's why the mobility feels better than many games in my opinion. It's punch and smooth. The rest of the game is a wreck.

Blade and Soul has decent combat, not as good as Neverwinter. Wolcen (not an MMO) has great combat. This is the stuff I'd like to see in an MMO. I really hope they finish that game well. It could be so cool.

ESO combat is like the rest of the game, above average but could have been so much better. The problem isn't that the combat or game is bad, it's that it lets you see how much better it could have been and that can be a drag.

Funny, I always thought that Neverwinter was too rigid and locked in. I didn't care for it much.

I suppose where one draws the line on animation locking is a matter of taste.

I do think rigidity and the locking are also its weakest points. It does have flaws and could be better. Compared to its peers it's a lot better. I think of it sort of like TERA which had decent combat when it launched but hasn't aged as well in my opinion compared to newer iterations (BnS for example).

BnS would rate a lot higher in my world if it didn't feel so programmatic. I think that's why I contrasted Wolcen to it. Skills feel more intuitive and tactical in the moment in Wolcen.

I so agree on TERA. I find the game's combat massively overhyped.

Also, when I returned, that redesigned new player experience was just dreadful. Because, you know nothing screams true action combat like babysitting a little girl for half an hour.

klash2def · October 2019

ESO combat is better than WoW and its legion of clones so there's that.

I think it could be better of course, but the way you can literally build any type of character you can imagine is amazing.

Also, what type of combat? You are talking melee? I agree then, Melee could be better. There are other parts to ESO combat though. We only see this same argument come up about Melee animations.

The sneak style is amazing, the bow and arrows are decent, the magic is fantastic. The fact that you can have a character that mixes the three is amazing.

The best MELEE combat I've seen in an MMO was BDO. I hate that game but their melee is top-notch. Imagine ESO with that Melee.. 10/10 game. Right now its like 8/10. ESO is still the best MMO on the market IMO.

BTH Bethesda's combat systems have never been that great, so I say props to Zenimax for "retaining the charm" of Bethesda's RPGs but adding something new to it. I like it.. could be better, but I like it.

FlyByKnight · October 2019

Chill.

Action combat can be managed different ways and it's all about execution.

There's combat where using certain skills/attacks have responsive risk versus reward (what many of you button mashers call animation locking or rooting) implications. Heavy/Medium/Slow or Run/Walk/Stand.

Then there's the more free form style where you press what you want, and more or less something happens. This is mostly found in FPS games and reticle based/skill shot games. Those have more to do with the speed/velocity/size of projectiles.

Both executions have been done outside of MMORPGs with excellence. They even throw in scissor, paper, rock meta.

The problem isn't the style that is being used, it's that MMORPG developers typically SUCK at integrating action combat AND there is a player base (Walter Mathau & Jack Lemmon

) that still demand tab targeting and macros.

TERA was decent but the issue is that under the hood it still had tab target mechanics. This is clearly visible when the game had to deal with projectiles aka magic bullets. BAM and BOSS fights were pretty good though. It was a breath of fresh air for those who came from an arcade background. Not so much for you Leisure Suit Larry, Space Quest, Black Cauldron mf'ers (I kid... sorta).

The problem in ESO is the combat is a poorly put together version of masked tab targeting + the freedom of that FPS reticle style.

It's not about taking action combat too far, it's about taking it too wrong.

Vermillion_Raventhal · October 2019

I found ESO combat clunky. Something just off about it.

Amathe · October 2019

I found the UI and movement controls in ESO a hot mess, which made combat troublesome, which led me to move on to something else.

Iselin · October 2019

I'm in the "didn't go far enough" camp also. The fact that this option is missing from the poll tells me everything I need to know about the poll's agenda.

ESO is a hybrid tab/action MMO simply because you can either click on something to lock the target or even use the tab key to cycle and lock just like you can in WOW. If you don't, it'll target whatever is closest to the crosshairs at the center of your FOV IF the ability needs a target. That's the action targeting part of the hybrid.

But it's more action oriented because the vast majority of offensive or defensive skills are not single target and don't need to be targeted on a player or NPC.

It has more cone and ground targeted AOE skills than any other MMO I've ever played. And if you heal you know that even 99% of healing skills that are neither ground targeted nor cones still don't require a target because they use "smart heal" and heal the one or 2 group mates that need it the most or don't have that HOT already on them. The only exception I can think of is the Psijiic skill that toggles your basic weapon attack into a targeted heal.

The whole game is designed to be fast paced. Not only is specific targeting only needed when trying to pick one target out of dense group (just looking at them will do it otherwise) but all buffs and debuffs are of very, very short duration compared to games like WOW and all its tab-target clones. This is a good thing.

Aggro in ESO is also short duration and single target only. That's deliberate and made so that all party members need to stay active avoiding damage. Most bosses, even in the easiest content, also have specific aggro-ignoring mechanics. Tank'n'spank fights with bosses are few and far between.

Active defending is also a big feature with everyone having the ability and need to block and bash with whatever weapon they use - not just shields. Moving, dodging and blocking are things that every player - not just the tank - need to do. And oh yeah, everything you can cast can be cast while moving - no horseshit self-rooting as in WOW. This is also good.

All of this put together creates a combat mechanic that is 100 times more engaging than WOW combat (speaking from very recent experience since I've been playing WOW, not ESO, for the past couple of months.) Does it have issues? Sure. Melee impact is not as impactful as it should be. But overall the whole combat system ranks a lot higher than most MMOs out there.

Where I think it needs to be more action combat oriented is in the feel and aesthetics of the actions. That's an area where the tab-target part of the hybrid shows its ugly teeth. They say they're reworking that (again lol) so we'll see if any positive changes come out of that.

Oh and my apologies for not attacking or defending animation cancelling in my post. It's such a tired and much misunderstood subject that ESO tourists like to obsess about. So sorry to disappoint you if that's what you really wanted to talk about... it was, wasn't it?

Iselin · October 2019

thamighty213 said:

bcbully said:

ESO has the most heart pounding visceral combat I’ve ever experienced in an mmorpg.

is it that hard to hold your heavy attack the hit a skill? Lmao go back to wow.

are you joking ?

No he's not joking. He just wasn't an ESO tourist and played it at the highest level for quite a while. A few of us here did.

As an aside... just how many of you commenting in this thread completed vMA (that's the veteran version of Maelstrom Arena)? I know he did and so did I

boris20 · October 2019

Rungar said:

my opinion is that all mmo players really wanted for action combat was the ability to block and roll dodge on demand. Eso ran with the action combat theme at the time to an offensive way to improve damage ( animation cancelling) that involved alot of clicking and practice training, at least for those who didnt find a way around it.

do you think they went to far in the quest to provide action combat? You cant have a real discussion on the eso site because of all the aggressive defenders they have there so ill post it here instead.

Animation cancelling is the sole reason I will not play ESO. I think I could have a good time with the amount of content and large player base. But in order to not get kicked from groups and stay competitive you need to learn how to animation cancel. And it really annoyed me and lost the feel of actual combat to me.

goboygo · October 2019

Rhoklaw said:

When I hear "animation cancelling" what I'm really hearing is "legitimate exploitation" and thanks to lazy developers, it makes their game suck.

Yup, oh but dude. animation cancelling is a "game feature" for skilled players to master. Honestly its one of the three reasons I stopped playing. Two was the dismantling of archery turning bows into guns then adding the restrictions of melee weapons. The other is a heavily instanced closed in game world.

Rungar · October 2019

Iselin said:

I'm in the "didn't go far enough" camp also. The fact that this option is missing from the poll tells me everything I need to know about the poll's agenda.

ESO is a hybrid tab/action MMO simply because you can either click on something to lock the target or even use the tab key to cycle and lock just like you can in WOW. If you don't, it'll target whatever is closest to the crosshairs at the center of your FOV IF the ability needs a target. That's the action targeting part of the hybrid.

But it's more action oriented because the vast majority of offensive or defensive skills are not single target and don't need to be targeted on a player or NPC.

It has more cone and ground targeted AOE skills than any other MMO I've ever played. And if you heal you know that even 99% of healing skills that are neither ground targeted nor cones still don't require a target because they use "smart heal" and heal the one or 2 group mates that need it the most or don't have that HOT already on them. The only exception I can think of is the Psijiic skill that toggles your basic weapon attack into a targeted heal.

The whole game is designed to be fast paced. Not only is specific targeting only needed when trying to pick one target out of dense group (just looking at them will do it otherwise) but all buffs and debuffs are of very, very short duration compared to games like WOW and all its tab-target clones. This is a good thing.

Aggro in ESO is also short duration and single target only. That's deliberate and made so that all party members need to stay active avoiding damage. Most bosses, even in the easiest content, also have specific aggro-ignoring mechanics. Tank'n'spank fights with bosses are few and far between.

Active defending is also a big feature with everyone having the ability and need to block and bash with whatever weapon they use - not just shields. Moving, dodging and blocking are things that every player - not just the tank - need to do. And oh yeah, everything you can cast can be cast while moving - no horseshit self-rooting as in WOW. This is also good.

All of this put together creates a combat mechanic that is 100 times more engaging than WOW combat (speaking from very recent experience since I've been playing WOW, not ESO, for the past couple of months.) Does it have issues? Sure. Melee impact is not as impactful as it should be. But overall the whole combat system ranks a lot higher than most MMOs out there.

Where I think it needs to be more action combat oriented is in the feel and aesthetics of the actions. That's an area where the tab-target part of the hybrid shows its ugly teeth. They say they're reworking that (again lol) so we'll see if any positive changes come out of that.

Oh and my apologies for not attacking or defending animation cancelling in my post. It's such a tired and much misunderstood subject that ESO tourists like to obsess about. So sorry to disappoint you if that's what you really wanted to talk about... it was, wasn't it?

blah blah blah i explained upfront what my opinion was.

Iselin · October 2019

Rungar said:

blah blah blah i explained upfront what my opinion was.

Yeah all you want is dodge and block - the simple shit. But you're dead wrong in your opinion that this is what mmo players wanted.

What action combat is all about is in the blah blah blah you apparently don't know shit about.

BlazerX · October 2019

LOL you guys are late to the party. There has been multiple threads on the official ESO forums regarding this previously. I played for a long time, everything golded gear, got/did all the content. Even learned animation cancelling.

But personally I thought the combat was fucked up when they forced Animation Cancelling as a REQUIREMENT for end game content to parse higher DPS. This is also the reason why the stupid company kept doing huge balance changes almost every major patch and many people got fed up with this and quit. Talk about a fallout...

The blame for this is squarely on the devs who endorsed Animation Cancelling to parse higher dps and then build the end game around THAT <- how fucking stupid.

So basically you don't know how to animation cancel, you cant play end game content because no progression guild will ever let you in because of your "lower" dps.

btw I parsed 45k+, which was ok and was acceptable for end game content but most players was struggling to hit 20k+ because they couldn't get the animation cancelling down + rotation.

And then the idiot devs kept "balance changing" the whole racial passives + every fucking main skillset for a class almost every big patch cycle. You can imagine how this didn't take very well with most of the playerbase (except maybe newbies who didn't know shit)

So this is why ESO is a dying game at the moment.

Oh and yes I myself quit this game cold turkey about 2 months ago. Best decision I ever made in/for a game

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