They can be, but was the Ford model T, art or perfunctory utility design?
I find one of Clackson's quotes particularly interesting though:
"For something to be art, it has to have no purpose other than itself, no function".
So what is a video game? It's basically useless. Just like movies, music, paintings, etc... no other function that itself. To entertain. To be seen and experienced for itself. Like that Alfa Romeo.
PS: I never had the honor to drive that model, even though I also own an Alfa which model was only made at 512 exemplars in the world (GTV V6 3.2 24V). But I drove a Ferrari Enzo once. Yes, cars can be art. Impractical for everyday use, actually useless for anything else but existing and giving you feelings. Art.
The fact you own a rare Alfa for ten thousand euros is art.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I just noticed a tweeter discussion regarding the matter. Of course, being tweeter and all, the discussion was hard to follow and one of the members eventually chose to block the rest, because ...
Anyway.
What do you people think?
Are games art?
Are they merely products?
Or they start as products and have the potential to become art, given the test of time?
Also:
Are people working on these projects artists?
Or they are they just making a very good product?
The games that makes their own assets are. Seeing things come to life from sketches, to 3D models to animation. Its the closest to feeling we can have that gives us God's perspective on how he would have felt creating our Earth. Vision becomes something tangible.
I partly agree with you. Games can be art but not always. Sometimes game can be addictive and problems. I have one question to you Sims 4 How to Write Songs?
Can AI be art?
A year old thread necroed by a bot? If that's not AI art I don't know what is.
In 2011, in Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association , the United States Supreme Court ruled that games are entitled to First Amendment protection, with the majority opinion reading, "Like the protected books, plays, and movies that preceded them, video games communicate ideas—and even social messages—through many familiar literary devices (such as characters, dialogue, plot, and music) and through features distinctive to the medium (such as the player's interaction with the virtual world). That suffices to confer First Amendment protection."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
In 2011, in Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association , the United States Supreme Court ruled that games are entitled to First Amendment protection, with the majority opinion reading, "Like the protected books, plays, and movies that preceded them, video games communicate ideas—and even social messages—through many familiar literary devices (such as characters, dialogue, plot, and music) and through features distinctive to the medium (such as the player's interaction with the virtual world). That suffices to confer First Amendment protection."
What I underlined is why I say video games contain art, but are not art themselves. Some (a few?) fit into that category as a social statement alone, but most are simply entertainment, created for us to "play." Books, movies, music, pictures et al are not created for us to "play." That is the difference, in my opinion
So, I guess I respectfully disagree with the US Supreme Court, which is not the first or last time
I DO, however, agree that games should be protected under the first amendment, but that doesn't make them art. The first amendment covers "freedom of speech", not art only. Newspapers and magazines also get this protection while not being art, in and of themselves
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Apparently the Writers Guild Association agrees games can be art, but they are not giving out an award in the Video Game category this year as there appears to be few worthy contenders.
"There won't be a Videogame Writing Award in 2020," a representative of the WGA said. "However, the category will be reinstated when there is a critical mass of videogames covered by the WGA in order to provide a meaningful award selection process."
See, it's not just those who live under the bridge who think the video game industry for the most part is in the crapper these days.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Apparently the Writers Guild Association agrees games can be art, but they are not giving out an award in the Video Game category this year as there appears to be few worthy contenders.
"There won't be a Videogame Writing Award in 2020," a representative of the WGA said. "However, the category will be reinstated when there is a critical mass of videogames covered by the WGA in order to provide a meaningful award selection process."
See, it's not just those who live under the bridge who think the video game industry for the most part is in the crapper these days.
So they are going to keep in mind all titles released each year until they think there are enough of them to have a meaningful selection, when it comes to art gaming has become a feast fit for a pauper. But the fun guys don't forget how much fun we are having!
So, I guess I respectfully disagree with the US Supreme Court, which is not the first or last time
I DO, however, agree that games should be protected under the first amendment, but that doesn't make them art. The first amendment covers "freedom of speech", not art only. Newspapers and magazines also get this protection while not being art, in and of themselves
I understand.
The SC was dealing with what is protected speech. Art is a form of speech. But not all speech is art.
Keep in mind, however, that not all art is "good" art. Some of it is shit. But it's still art. The bar is set pretty low. I mean, some consider this art:
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I ran into this old video a few days ago. If you can disregard Electronic Arts featured as the good guys, it's still good viewing about the games as art subject:
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I ran into this old video a few days ago. If you can disregard Electronic Arts featured as the good guys, it's still good viewing about the games as art subject:
It may be just me, that link got me to YouTube, but the video was "unavailable."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I ran into this old video a few days ago. If you can disregard Electronic Arts featured as the good guys, it's still good viewing about the games as art subject:
It may be just me, that link got me to YouTube, but the video was "unavailable."
It still works for me. It's a video from the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.) It may be region locked I suppose but I didn't think that happened with YT videos. Weird.
The title is "Can a computer make you cry?" It's the first of a 10 part series of shorts (all under 12 minutes) on CBC called The Artists - The Pioneers Behind the Pixels.
This is a link to all 10 parts on the CBC site itself but if the YT link doesn't work outside Canada, I doubt this one will:
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
In the way that it it's a marriage of various artforms - music, art, animation, direction and story-telling. They are the product of creative minds that can be shared with and experienced by others.
I think they're also entertainment and can be enjoyed simply as that, without the "art question" even being considered.
When it's taken to pretentious, preachy levels, where "games are art, and art must convey a message, and that message must instill the "correct opinions" in players..." and all that, that's when I roll my eyes and hop off the train.
I don't play games to be told how or what to think, and am annoyed when I realize a game is trying to push some ideology on me, even if I agree with it. If it's germaine to the setting and story, fine. If it's the designer/developer preaching at me, no way. And it's usually pretty easy to tell which is the case.
Also haven't read the whole thread, but here's my opinion.
Computer Games as a whole are an Art Form, and should be considered alongside painting, dance, music etc. They can convey beauty, emotion, tell stories, and educate us. Just like all other art forms.
However, just because computer games are an art form, doesn't mean each game is a piece of art.
As with all art forms, most of the works produced are not art, but the result of craft. Painting is a craft, as is dancing, and we can all go off a learn the basics of the craft, then practice the craft until we're pretty good.
The transition from craft to art tends to come when we, the audience, can appreciate that the craft is very good AND the piece of art pushes past our boundaries and challenges us in some way. For example, we can all appreciate the craft behind the Mona Lisa - it's a very detailed and well done painting - but what pushes it into art is the shape of the smile. That smile is unreadable - is she smirking? laughing? condescending? We each tend to come to our own conclusions, or even change our mind each time we see it, and it's that that makes it art.
So, the same is true of games.
We can all appreciate the craft of games - we can spot a well polished game, or really smooth gameplay, or a deep meta-game. But it's when a game challenges us in some way that it moves into art. Maybe it challenges us through the story, by letting a bad guy win when we expected to win. Maybe it's the world building, providing us with the same sense of delight that we got the first time we saw Star Wars or Avatar. Maybe its some of the gameplay mechanics, like the first time you played a shooter that included a cover mechanic. Maybe it's the choices/freedom we are given as a player that let us discover something about ourselves.
From this, you can also see why all art is subjective. We all come from different starting points, so what challenges one person (because they've never seen its like before) may come off as derivative to someone else who has seen 1000 paintings like it in the past. This is why kids can find something like Fortnite amazing, whilst a lot of us older folks view it as garbage compared to all the games we've seen in the past.
Yes it is art. Sometimes we get a piece that is revered through the ages, like Pong, Tetris, or Mario bro’s. Sometimes we get notebook paper drawings magnetized to mothers refrigerator. Often we get reprints...
It should be art, but in today market it’s quite rare to find games you can categorise as art.
Example: Bioware pre-EA is art. Bioware post-EA is sh... aehm sorry, I mean it’s not art.
Basically anything that is made with people’s heart and passion is art. Anything made with marketing guidelines isn’t, though it can still be a good game.
A useful way to look at art in the context of making games is that it's not a science. It's not something we have deduced to a formula really. Otherwise all games would be hit games. It's kind of that way simply because of the complexity of it all. So many moving parts, and you don't know what if we did A how will it impact the larger game. You just have to put it in and play test it. And then it might end up impacting a dozen other things you didn't expect.
Even the technical side, I spend hours as a developer iterating on little things to get them to 'feel' right. Like just the other day I was working on character jumping. You know how it's usually challenging to make those short jumps to a confined surface in games? Well there are a lot of little details that go into making that even work well and feel good. Your velocity has to decay just right based on distance and height and it's tied to the input and does that feel right also for the action it results in. Is it all timed just right. It's very much a does this feel right thing where there is no formula per say you just keep tweaking the numbers until you nail it.
And games have tons of detailed stuff like that where it's not really about software design or hard math.
I ran into this old video a few days ago. If you can disregard Electronic Arts featured as the good guys, it's still good viewing about the games as art subject:
It may be just me, that link got me to YouTube, but the video was "unavailable."
It still works for me. It's a video from the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.) It may be region locked I suppose but I didn't think that happened with YT videos. Weird.
The title is "Can a computer make you cry?" It's the first of a 10 part series of shorts (all under 12 minutes) on CBC called The Artists - The Pioneers Behind the Pixels.
This is a link to all 10 parts on the CBC site itself but if the YT link doesn't work outside Canada, I doubt this one will:
Yea, that said "Not available outside of Canada." The YouTube link brought me to the video, so I had all the info, just not the video. Dangit! That sounded interesting
I'll see what Google finds for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
,,,and the toast I had this morning looked just like Jesus!
Anyone can call anything art. It's in the eye (or ear) of the beholder, or believer
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
So, I guess I respectfully disagree with the US Supreme Court, which is not the first or last time
I DO, however, agree that games should be protected under the first amendment, but that doesn't make them art. The first amendment covers "freedom of speech", not art only. Newspapers and magazines also get this protection while not being art, in and of themselves
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"There won't be a Videogame Writing Award in 2020," a representative of the WGA said. "However, the category will be reinstated when there is a critical mass of videogames covered by the WGA in order to provide a meaningful award selection process."
See, it's not just those who live under the bridge who think the video game industry for the most part is in the crapper these days.
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-10-03-wga-drops-video-game-award-category
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The SC was dealing with what is protected speech. Art is a form of speech. But not all speech is art.
Keep in mind, however, that not all art is "good" art. Some of it is shit. But it's still art. The bar is set pretty low. I mean, some consider this art:
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Fg-Fe70oo
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The title is "Can a computer make you cry?" It's the first of a 10 part series of shorts (all under 12 minutes) on CBC called The Artists - The Pioneers Behind the Pixels.
This is a link to all 10 parts on the CBC site itself but if the YT link doesn't work outside Canada, I doubt this one will:
https://gem.cbc.ca/season/the-artists/season-1/6ec08750-b8fd-4841-9d62-5d05760af9be
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
In the way that it it's a marriage of various artforms - music, art, animation, direction and story-telling. They are the product of creative minds that can be shared with and experienced by others.
I think they're also entertainment and can be enjoyed simply as that, without the "art question" even being considered.
When it's taken to pretentious, preachy levels, where "games are art, and art must convey a message, and that message must instill the "correct opinions" in players..." and all that, that's when I roll my eyes and hop off the train.
I don't play games to be told how or what to think, and am annoyed when I realize a game is trying to push some ideology on me, even if I agree with it. If it's germaine to the setting and story, fine. If it's the designer/developer preaching at me, no way. And it's usually pretty easy to tell which is the case.
Example:
Bioware pre-EA is art.
Bioware post-EA is sh... aehm sorry, I mean it’s not art.
Basically anything that is made with people’s heart and passion is art.
Anything made with marketing guidelines isn’t, though it can still be a good game.
Even the technical side, I spend hours as a developer iterating on little things to get them to 'feel' right. Like just the other day I was working on character jumping. You know how it's usually challenging to make those short jumps to a confined surface in games? Well there are a lot of little details that go into making that even work well and feel good. Your velocity has to decay just right based on distance and height and it's tied to the input and does that feel right also for the action it results in. Is it all timed just right. It's very much a does this feel right thing where there is no formula per say you just keep tweaking the numbers until you nail it.
And games have tons of detailed stuff like that where it's not really about software design or hard math.
I'll see what Google finds for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Anyone can call anything art. It's in the eye (or ear) of the beholder, or believer
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR