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So you want Open World Dungeons in future MMOs? Well tell us whats the best way to implement it

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  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    There's a lot of ideas posted here that I like a lot. 

    In my opinion if you want a world full of open world Dungeons, then you should design the game with low power gaps so that players can actually function in an "Open World." 
    It doesn't do any good to have open world Dungeons, and then heavily restrict them by levels. 
    That's just not "open" to the players. 


    Once upon a time....

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    There's a lot of ideas posted here that I like a lot. 

    In my opinion if you want a world full of open world Dungeons, then you should design the game with low power gaps so that players can actually function in an "Open World." 
    It doesn't do any good to have open world Dungeons, and then heavily restrict them by levels. 
    That's just not "open" to the players. 


    Well, you could have areas for higher level players but a larger group of lower level players could survive.
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  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    edited September 2019
    Sovrath said:
    There's a lot of ideas posted here that I like a lot. 

    In my opinion if you want a world full of open world Dungeons, then you should design the game with low power gaps so that players can actually function in an "Open World." 
    It doesn't do any good to have open world Dungeons, and then heavily restrict them by levels. 
    That's just not "open" to the players. 


    Well, you could have areas for higher level players but a larger group of lower level players could survive.
    Yes, but I would break it down more than that.

    First off, in a world with open Dungeons, I think there should be plenty of Dungeons, and they should have levels of depth that get increasingly harder.

    And most Dungeons, but not all, should start with a "level 1" area that's tailored for the first 20% of Character levels/skills. And each successive level deeper should be tailored for the next 20% of Character levels/skills. 
    And so on, to a level depth of 5, tailored for the top 20% of Character levels/skills. 

    Then some Dungeons should start moving beyond that, with Dungeon level 6, 7, and so on. 
    At these levels, it gets, say, 5% more difficult.

    In that formula I just listed, assume a party of 8 as the basis for survivability. 

    So a party of 10 of the highest 20% of Characters might be well suited for the 6th level of depth. 
    A party of 16 of the lowest 20% of levels should have survivability in the 2nd level. 
    And so on. 

    By "survivability" I don't mean without difficulty.

    That's just a rough guide to get the point across. 

    But there's another issue that's important here.
    Boss MOBs. 
    I don't think Bosses should be sitting there at the deepest levels waiting to be farmed.
    And I don't think Bosses, or any MOB, should have some special reward that's predictable in their possession. I think it should be random, much like P+P Advanced D&D had. So some few might not have any special item on them, although they would likely have good amounts of gold or some other basic need. 

    I think Boss MOBs should be spawned with world events, mostly in the deepest levels of Dungeons.
    And each Boss MOB should come with an army of some sort or another. 

    And their location should be random. Usually in a Dungeon or Ruins, maybe a Cemetery, etc. 

    And sometimes, multiple Boss spawns, armies included, should happen as part of one World Event. 

    And these Bosses should have a purpose, basically boiling down to the destruction of Humanity.
    GMs should play a role in this, guiding the World Event towards some goal. 

    Furthermore, when a Boss MOB spawns, the army should start spreading outward, or in the case of Dungeons, upward.
    Players will recognize that a Boss is spawned when they see an increase in difficulty in a Dungeon, or other place. 


    Sovrathkjempff

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    edited September 2019
    By the way, a couple more comments.

    What I've done here is reduce the power gaps as such.
    In a level based game with 80 levels, where zoned content is broken down into groups of 5 levels, each group is about 6+% of the players base. That's opposed to 20% in my example of "lower power gaps."

    Also, you can see that this allows for mixed groups more freely. 
    You can have some Characters of a lower 20% mixed in with some Characters of a higher 20%, and still have some survivability in the Dungeon levels that's tailored to the higher leveled Characters. 

    And greater numbers improve the odds. 

    But again, this is rough. It would need a lot more time and refinement than I've put into it to be workable in a great way. 

    One more thing.
    Randomness is the MMORPG's friend. Otherwise, the game's excitement, it's magic, gets stifled with predictability. 
    kjempff

    Once upon a time....

  • BiszcuitBiszcuit Newbie CommonPosts: 9

    There are places that have gates and portals similar to the .hack: infection game that lets you choose servers to try dungeons, etc. There are servers with lobbies for dungeons, temples, caves, castles, or etc that wait to be filled, to a limit, to start the dungeon, temple, cave, castle, or etc with the players that were in those lobbies. You have to travel to certain locations where you can talk to a NPC character who lets you enter servers that warp you to whatever section of the story that you're up to. Each server holds a limited amount of players and each server holds players that are all the same levels within intervals of 10 (example: server 1 - levels 1-10, server 2 - levels 10-20). You can always enter servers of any level higher than your level, but you can't enter servers that are any levels lower than it indicates that aren't your level.If the battle zone is locked when you get up to any boss/miniboss in the story, dungeon, temple, cave, castle, or etc, you can go up to something there and press a button to fight the battle in another server either alone or with other players to progress.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Biszcuit said:

    There are places that have gates and portals similar to the .hack: infection game that lets you choose servers to try dungeons, etc. There are servers with lobbies for dungeons, temples, caves, castles, or etc that wait to be filled, to a limit, to start the dungeon, temple, cave, castle, or etc with the players that were in those lobbies. You have to travel to certain locations where you can talk to a NPC character who lets you enter servers that warp you to whatever section of the story that you're up to. Each server holds a limited amount of players and each server holds players that are all the same levels within intervals of 10 (example: server 1 - levels 1-10, server 2 - levels 10-20). You can always enter servers of any level higher than your level, but you can't enter servers that are any levels lower than it indicates that aren't your level.If the battle zone is locked when you get up to any boss/miniboss in the story, dungeon, temple, cave, castle, or etc, you can go up to something there and press a button to fight the battle in another server either alone or with other players to progress.


    /joking
    Boy, if that doesn't make me feel immersed in a world open to exploration and adventure, I don't know what does. 

    Once upon a time....

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    first thing you need to do is get rid of the "dungeon" theme and replace it with "warfronts".  Each warfront then is a mini pve campaign in itself that has a start  and a conclusion, rewards and then a restart where the enemy retakes the ground in force. 

    so the new group dungeons are castles and lairs that arent a linear romp through. They are complete with monster generators ( barracks), siege, alarms ect.  Destroying the monster generators lets players advance until the campaign is completed. Then everyone who participated is rewarded for their participation, the enemy swarms and overwhelms at some random time after its over and its on again.  During that random time between when its over and before it begins there are resources that can be extracted and special crafting stations called enemy forges which  crafter types can make use of. 

    the monkey wrench is that the enemy will build new generators when possible or repair existing ones. There would also be a number of random elements like visiting bosses from other warfronts,  warparties, assasins, and even random natural disasters etc . Pure mayhem. 

    next thing to get rid of is the "group/raid group" window. People will then have to learn to work together as individuals. No bars to manage. The bar is right underneath their name now which will require additional awareness. 

    join anytime solo for some fun. All are welcome because there are no more "groups".  Players vs mobs. Get in and fight.

    That can easily be done now.  


    AmarantharVermillion_Raventhal
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Rungar said:
    first thing you need to do is get rid of the "dungeon" theme and replace it with "warfronts".  Each warfront then is a mini pve campaign in itself that has a start  and a conclusion, rewards and then a restart where the enemy retakes the ground in force. 

    so the new group dungeons are castles and lairs that arent a linear romp through. They are complete with monster generators ( barracks), siege, alarms ect.  Destroying the monster generators lets players advance until the campaign is completed. Then everyone who participated is rewarded for their participation, the enemy swarms and overwhelms at some random time after its over and its on again.  During that random time between when its over and before it begins there are resources that can be extracted and special crafting stations called enemy forges which  crafter types can make use of. 

    the monkey wrench is that the enemy will build new generators when possible or repair existing ones. There would also be a number of random elements like visiting bosses from other warfronts,  warparties, assasins, and even random natural disasters etc . Pure mayhem. 

    next thing to get rid of is the "group/raid group" window. People will then have to learn to work together as individuals. No bars to manage. The bar is right underneath their name now which will require additional awareness. 

    join anytime solo for some fun. All are welcome because there are no more "groups".  Players vs mobs. Get in and fight.

    That can easily be done now.  


    I love it! 
    You could do the same thing with Dungeons, if they were not such linear constructions (map wise). 
    That would be a blast to play! 

    Once upon a time....

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    #1 FUN experience,what does that even mean?
    #2 how to implement?

    We already have them and FFXI did it a game designed for the PS2.The ONLY time you went into an instance was to do the story line which makes perfect sense or Dyanamis which again makes sense because it involves triggers.

    The main world all wide open for players to enter in the drones.In the early days of FFXI it was extremely crowded but there was a choice maybe not the optimum choice but you could move your group ANYWHERE to kill mobs for xp.

    Thing is we are confusing the term "dungeons" as only meaning,a place to kill a Boss at the end of some long tunnel  for best loot,which is NOT accurate at all.You can throw some rare boss spawns in those dungeons but they are not just there waiting for your raid to come along to get some loot.

    Point is the idea is EASILY doable,already done,geesh it was even done in Runes of Magic as well,not always but it was there,open dungeons and not instanced.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    edited September 2019
    the second required innovation is for instanced group dungeons as follows. Once again we remove the linear aspect of dungeons and this time we replace it with a radial designed dungeon with random elements that focuses on  division of labor and problem solving to complete the dungeon.

    Example :  The Keymaster

    players come into the dungeon where they battle to a large central room that has two sets of  cage in the middle. The boss of the dungeon ( the keymaster) is visible beyond the two sets of cage. Players are prompted by an npc to enter the first cage but only 2 may enter here and these two face periodic waves of enemies. 

    Around this giant room there are numerous paths and the players who didnt enter the cage have to search these catacombs for the keys to both the first cage which locked after the two went in and the second cage.  There are chests everywhere and opening the chests has multiple effects. 

    opening a chest can: 
     -Yield one of the 4 required keys
    -Cause enemies to spawn in the cage
    -Cause a miniboss to spawn in the cage
    -Cause enemies to spawn on top of you
    -Cause a miniboss to spawn somewhere else
    -Switch you out for someone already in the cage
    -Treasure and items

    additionally there is a challenging but completely optional boss that can be completed by the members outside the cage. There is also an optional collection quest that can be completed during this time. 

    Above the cage there is a huge dagger on a chain that lowers a bit every minute and when the two go in the cage this chain begins lowering meaning the other players only have 60 minutes to find all the keys ( which are randomly located every time) and get to the boss. There is a huge crank outside the cage that players can use to increase the time a bit. 

    Once the keys are found the cages can be opened and the players square off against the boss which is the end of the dungeon. 

    This is a time challenge dungeon and rewards are based on what you were able to accomplish. 

    reward tier copper: Getting the keys and defeating the keymaster (finishing before the timer)
    reward tier silver: Getting the keys, completing the optional quest OR optional boss, and finishing
    reward tier gold:  Getting the keys, completing the optional quest AND optional boss, and finishing 
    reward tier platinum:  doing all that  in 45 minutes. 

    this dungeon model  changes the requirements of dungeons from a dps centric one to a more well rounded character requirement as players will be requires to split up. There are also time constraints and optional parts that can be avoided to provide more challenge for more experienced players. This also opens the door for other forms of gameplay like using stealth to avoid enemies to find the keys faster.  

    this allows players to get in and do the dungeons but also provides incentives to come back and improve. This technique utilizes what i call global mechanics so the dungeons dont devolve to "boss fight dances" . This gives players time to resolve the problem and doesnt solely rely on boss fight reaction speed mechanics typical of todays mmo's.  


     
    Post edited by Rungar on
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide Member RarePosts: 1,015
    i like ESO's approach with some small solo dungeons,public dungeons and others meant for grouping.

    i think too many latch on to the whole organized raiding crap but that only really caters to a small fraction of the players.

    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Rungar said:
    the second required innovation is for instanced group dungeons as follows. Once again we remove the linear aspect of dungeons and this time we replace it with a radial designed dungeon with random elements that focuses on  division of labor and problem solving to complete the dungeon.

    Example :  The Keymaster

    players come into the dungeon where they battle to a large central room that has two sets of  cage in the middle. The boss of the dungeon ( the keymaster) is visible beyond the two sets of cage. Players are prompted by an npc to enter the first cage but only 2 may enter here and these two face periodic waves of enemies. 

    Around this giant room there are numerous paths and the players who didnt enter the cage have to search these catacombs for the keys to both the first cage which locked after the two went in and the second cage.  There are chests everywhere and opening the chests has multiple effects. 

    opening a chest can: 
     -Yield one of the 4 required keys
    -Cause enemies to spawn in the cage
    -Cause a miniboss to spawn in the cage
    -Cause enemies to spawn on top of you
    -Cause a miniboss to spawn somewhere else
    -Switch you out for someone already in the cage
    -Treasure and items

    additionally there is a challenging but completely optional boss that can be completed by the members outside the cage. There is also an optional collection quest that can be completed during this time. 

    Above the cage there is a huge dagger on a chain that lowers a bit every minute and when the two go in the cage this chain begins lowering meaning the other players only have 60 minutes to find all the keys ( which are randomly located every time) and get to the boss. There is a huge crank outside the cage that players can use to increase the time a bit. 

    Once the keys are found the cages can be opened and the players square off against the boss which is the end of the dungeon. 

    This is a time challenge dungeon and rewards are based on what you were able to accomplish. 

    reward tier copper: Getting the keys and defeating the keymaster (finishing before the timer)
    reward tier silver: Getting the keys, completing the optional quest OR optional boss, and finishing
    reward tier gold:  Getting the keys, completing the optional quest AND optional boss, and finishing 
    reward tier platinum:  doing all that  in 45 minutes. 

    this dungeon model  changes the requirements of dungeons from a dps centric one to a more well rounded character requirement as players will be requires to split up. There are also time constraints and optional parts that can be avoided to provide more challenge for more experienced players. This also opens the door for other forms of gameplay like using stealth to avoid enemies to find the keys faster.  

    this allows players to get in and do the dungeons but also provides incentives to come back and improve. This technique utilizes what i call global mechanics so the dungeons dont devolve to "boss fight dances" . This gives players time to resolve the problem and doesnt solely rely on boss fight reaction speed mechanics typical of todays mmo's.  


     
    That's interesting. I don't know if I like that particular example, but I do have an appreciation for the goal you have in mind. 
    I think the thing I don't like about this example is that it feels contrived and gamey. No doubt because you are just coming up with something on the moment. But with a few modifications, it could be pretty good. 

    I do like, very much, the concept of splitting the players up for separate goals that must be done together. 
    It's not a thing for all, or even many, dungeons. Just a few, made to simulate a defensive layout by some evil demi-god or great power. 

    That's my thinking on this specific concept, anyways. 


    Once upon a time....

  • LuftwaffenLuftwaffen Member UncommonPosts: 101
    im sure this aint a popular opinion but I think UO from my experience had best dungeon system and the game is what 22 years old and had open world dungeons ?  yes if a spawn was taken you moved on  and big events like champ spawns were a ton of fun  that usually involved PvP but I love pvp and UOs dungeons made for great pvp action 
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    yes the example is a little gamey but i dont think its a bad thing.  I see your point though. 

    Ive found with modern dungeon design there is no time. Its more like a "get it over with"  rather than an actual experience.  The main idea is to remove the focus of a dungeon from the "boss mechanics" such that the entire dungeon is the mechanic. This allows for time and there are other advantages as well. 

    1) you get to select who does the hard tasks. Perhaps not everyone is up to it and this lets weaker players play with stronger ones where the stronger more experienced ones take the lead role.  

    2) while traditional roles would still exist players would be required to be more self sufficient and well rounded in anticipation of division of labor. Pve builds would better resemble pvp builds. 

    3) random components and variable rewards gives another layer of repeatability beyond the armor set you were looking for.  This time you do that task, next time i do it. Your getting more bang for your buck. 

    4) the focus on dps in games has reached a critical level where its not even really a game anymore. Its a dance off with a boss who does his mechanics and you avoid them until he dies. There is no gameplay value whats so ever.  Theres nothing interesting, nothing to do except avoid red.  The gameplay has to happen in the dungeon with the boss as the highlight and not the other way around.  We want to go the other way. 

    5) the radial design ensures it wont be a sprint to the finish line. You might actually get to type something. You also dont have to remember endless boss mechanics as they would be more subtle since we made the dungeon itself the mechanic. 

    the bottom line is that your spreading the challenge out from the boss encounter to the whole dungeon which means it can still be challenging but slightly less twitchy. 
    AlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    Log onto p99 green in about 2 months to see how not to do open world dungeons
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    edited September 2019
    project 1999 lol. 
    Post edited by Rungar on
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    edited September 2019
    im sure this aint a popular opinion but I think UO from my experience had best dungeon system and the game is what 22 years old and had open world dungeons ?  yes if a spawn was taken you moved on  and big events like champ spawns were a ton of fun  that usually involved PvP but I love pvp and UOs dungeons made for great pvp action 
    I understand the love of good PvP, but the fact is that unless you are all into it, and most gamers are not, then the game really sucks for those players. And they leave. 


    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

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