Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Pantheon:RotF in trouble

13

Comments

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,293
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    Because crowdfunding changed the dynamic when they started selling the idea that any whale with a fat wallet could influence development. The more you "donate" the earlier in the process you can "test" the game.


    Precisely - the new model is all about $$$$

    <snip>
    On the issue of influencing development - different issue and a discussion can certainly be had about the relationship with crowdfunding.

    When it comes to releasing "early access" though how new is the "new model"?

    GW1 sold "early access" back in 2003 was it.
    Pretty sure Rift did something - access to "pre-launch" periods from memory. 
    EQ Next / Landscape certainly did.
    And there were others.

    None of which were "crowdfunded".
     
    More prevalent these days? I suspect so but I haven't counted if challenged. Maybe there are many, many games being developed of grid without a crowd funded penny to their name.

    Crowdfunded games need $$$ though to get made. And - at some point - backers get interested or even grumpy and want to know what is going on. Especially as the years pass. And ultimately words and pictures can only go so far. Devs would probably prefer not to have the hassle - pain even! - of laying it all out there. An alpha / beta / insert name here will bring in $$$ though. Gives (potential) backers something to experience. Double edged sword though, cuts through hype and takes a pitch fork to dodgy timescales.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,662
    When I got in early to Guild Wars, LotRO, and later Rift, those games were already made. Those were marketing periods to generate a viral buzz. They weren't underbaked monstrosities changing direction and adding features every few months for years on end selling something not yet made. There were a few like Vanguard, but they were the exception. The point being, "early access" didn't roll on for months or years. They were measured in days and weeks. It's a totally different beast now and I don't find the two equally comparable.
    YashaXAlBQuirkyVermillion_Raventhal
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

    It only took 3 people 8 words to rock Blizzard to its core.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,906
    gervaise1 said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    Because crowdfunding changed the dynamic when they started selling the idea that any whale with a fat wallet could influence development. The more you "donate" the earlier in the process you can "test" the game.


    Precisely - the new model is all about $$$$

    <snip>
    On the issue of influencing development - different issue and a discussion can certainly be had about the relationship with crowdfunding.

    When it comes to releasing "early access" though how new is the "new model"?

    GW1 sold "early access" back in 2003 was it.
    Pretty sure Rift did something - access to "pre-launch" periods from memory. 
    EQ Next / Landscape certainly did.
    And there were others.

    None of which were "crowdfunded".
     
    More prevalent these days? I suspect so but I haven't counted if challenged. Maybe there are many, many games being developed of grid without a crowd funded penny to their name.

    Crowdfunded games need $$$ though to get made. And - at some point - backers get interested or even grumpy and want to know what is going on. Especially as the years pass. And ultimately words and pictures can only go so far. Devs would probably prefer not to have the hassle - pain even! - of laying it all out there. An alpha / beta / insert name here will bring in $$$ though. Gives (potential) backers something to experience. Double edged sword though, cuts through hype and takes a pitch fork to dodgy timescales.
    As far as I recall those early examples you're bringing up were trivial cases of paying an extra $20 or so for earlier access to Beta, not  Alpha or pre-Alpha because no one was misusing that terminology back then.

    EQN with their Landmark access was a different case in modern times when early access on Steam and tiered crowdfunding were already well-established.

    What we have today is the organized sale of access tiers. And what they're selling is a fiction of influence. Those high-tier early access pre-alphas simply provide developers with a group of invested followers who will repeat the talking points provided to them, but the developers will still do exactly what they want to do anyway. One or two may be made to feel special and influential typically only if they have a strong YT or Twitch following :)

    I would be highly skeptical of the chance of success for any game where developers actually do allow themselves to be heavily influenced by the pre-Alpha invitees. That would just show a disturbing lack of vision and commitment to a solid development plan.
    TorvalMendelYashaXBeansnBreadAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,662
    Feature creep. 
    Just release a core game and allow backers to play it and test it while you roll out newer builds.
    Sometimes studios get too cute with a project and it causes delay after delay. 
    I have no interest in this game but from my brief play with Jim Lee it was a solid (if not a bit boring) older style mmorpg.
    Just no reason to be taking this long. 
    Remember the development time for EQ1? ;)  
    Good post and I think this is wise advice. I'm reminded of the saying, "perfect is the enemy of good" and it applies regarding crowd-funded MMOs. Project Gorgon has taken this route, and despite some inherent challenges and the scope of an indie team, it's working quite well.

    This might not work as well for a big budget AAA mass market game, but for an enthusiast hobby-oriented audience this approach makes a lot of sense to me.
    blueturtle13YashaXAlBQuirky
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

    It only took 3 people 8 words to rock Blizzard to its core.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,662
    edited September 21
    @Iselin in my case - in the case of LotRO it was a disc in a PC Gamer magazine. With Guild Wars and Rift any access costs were included in the box fee. It didn't cost more. It was something included for pre-purchasing. I bought that Rift key after being given a free beta trial very early.
    IselinYashaXAlBQuirky
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

    It only took 3 people 8 words to rock Blizzard to its core.
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,989
    Not to add more doom and gloom here but the Western MMO market for anything new is dead. The only MMOs are all crowd funded Indie projects that eventually fail. If this project dies so does all hope of and Western MMO being attempted for the next 10 years.
    YashaX


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,906
    Torval said:
    @Iselin in my case - in the case of LotRO it was a disc in a PC Gamer magazine. With Guild Wars and Rift any access costs were included in the box fee. It didn't cost more. It was something included for pre-purchasing. I bought that Rift key after being given a free beta trial very early.
    Yeah I was there in the beta for all 3 of those but my memory as to how I got there is old-man hazy :smile:

    I do remember getting some access perks for buying higher "special editions" for some games but I forget which had what exactly.
    TorvalYashaXAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,048
    I remember having to have the SW Galaxies disc sent to me for $9.99 back then.
    AlBQuirkyScot
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,935
    I remember having to have the SW Galaxies disc sent to me for $9.99 back then.
    I think UO was like 5 bucks for beta CD.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,453
    Those are crazy prices,i don't remember anything being that cheap.SWG was 2003 man i was paying 40-50 bucks for most games already in the 90's.I am quite certain that even the early console cartridges were 30 bucks and that was the 80's.
    The only time i could find a game for 10 bucks or cheaper was in the bargain bin.

    To me the cost is irrelevant,i go on VALUE,how valuable is the game to me,will i play hundreds of hours or play 2 and quit?

    Point being if Pantheons design systems..."make sense"i get a feeling of immersion,not a game on rails,more than just a dungeon loot grinder and world design that seems to gel together like it is a real world,i would pay a lot more than what is considered the norm.

    Right now,most of these mmorpg's are so badly done,you couldn't pay me to play them,it would be too painful.Now if Pantheon turns out to completely catch me by surprise,i could pay them $100 box price and a subscription.

    However,i better not ever see a cash shop,the game will go into the delete file so fast it isn't funny.
    Iselin

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,906
    Wizardry said:
    Those are crazy prices,i don't remember anything being that cheap.SWG was 2003 man i was paying 40-50 bucks for most games already in the 90's.I am quite certain that even the early console cartridges were 30 bucks and that was the 80's.
    The only time i could find a game for 10 bucks or cheaper was in the bargain bin.

    To me the cost is irrelevant,i go on VALUE,how valuable is the game to me,will i play hundreds of hours or play 2 and quit?

    Point being if Pantheons design systems..."make sense"i get a feeling of immersion,not a game on rails,more than just a dungeon loot grinder and world design that seems to gel together like it is a real world,i would pay a lot more than what is considered the norm.

    Right now,most of these mmorpg's are so badly done,you couldn't pay me to play them,it would be too painful.Now if Pantheon turns out to completely catch me by surprise,i could pay them $100 box price and a subscription.

    However,i better not ever see a cash shop,the game will go into the delete file so fast it isn't funny.
    They're talking about Beta disks, not full games.
    Hatefull
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,375
    edited September 23
    I remember having to have the SW Galaxies disc sent to me for $9.99 back then.
    I paid something like $50 over because I was in Brazil when husband was working there for a few years. I was very happy to pay that to beta SWG. I still have those discs.
    Hatefull
    image
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,794

    I totally believe the game will be released,

    I think they JUST started making it and that’s just a guess if its even started.  I'm sure will be playing it years down the road but small buggy and half done.  It will cater to older players and ones willing to put up with the bugs. 

    I changed from saying EVERYONE to now saying niche players only because it will be released as a mess.  

     

    I would guess they went dark in their production because of criticism of their videos.  Some day way down the line will all be surprised by an announcement. 

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,753
    cheyane said:
    I remember having to have the SW Galaxies disc sent to me for $9.99 back then.
    I paid something like $50 over because I was in Brazil when husband was working there for a few years. I was very happy to pay that to beta SWG. I still have those discs.
    Ahh Brazil...the beautiful landscapes, the vibrant culture...bugger that I am loading SWG. :D

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 6,896

    I totally believe the game will be released,

    I think they JUST started making it and that’s just a guess if its even started.  I'm sure will be playing it years down the road but small buggy and half done.  It will cater to older players and ones willing to put up with the bugs. 

    I changed from saying EVERYONE to now saying niche players only because it will be released as a mess.  

     

    I would guess they went dark in their production because of criticism of their videos.  Some day way down the line will all be surprised by an announcement. 

    Hey, it's a Star Citizen argument. They apparently just started development.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,734
    I believe in the genius of Brad McQuaid's game design skills.

    I have zero confidence in Brad McQuaid's time/project management skills.

    I sort of gleaned from the article I read about them making ladders that there isn't an intense benchmark requirement in sight.

    I expect they have enough money for now.

    I doubt they have enough money to go the distance.

    My expectation is that at some point they will sell the game = possibly to be finished by whoever they sell it to. 

    But that is just my speculation.

     
    cheyaneMendelPhaserlightTorval

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,036
    boris20 said:
    Can someone explain to me, what the point in "pre alpha" is, vs just calling it Alpha? So many different titles for the status of games anymore. Pre alpha 1,2,3, ect. the alphas, then Betas, then pre launch access, and so on. 
    Companies learned that if you call it beta, then players have expectations and want timetables...By using the alpha term, they have no time limits for launch or any other goal.
    Mendel
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,946
    edited September 23
    Amathe said:
    I believe in the genius of Brad McQuaid's game design skills.

    I have zero confidence in Brad McQuaid's time/project management skills.

    I sort of gleaned from the article I read about them making ladders that there isn't an intense benchmark requirement in sight.

    I expect they have enough money for now.

    I doubt they have enough money to go the distance.

    My expectation is that at some point they will sell the game = possibly to be finished by whoever they sell it to. 

    But that is just my speculation.

     
    @slapshot1188 hey, I think we might have a new Harbinger candidate here,  you still have any robes left or is it time to reorder?  (Membership has been booming lately)

     :D 
    AmatheTorval

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,280
    boris20 said:
    Can someone explain to me, what the point in "pre alpha" is, vs just calling it Alpha? So many different titles for the status of games anymore. Pre alpha 1,2,3, ect. the alphas, then Betas, then pre launch access, and so on. 
    Companies learned that if you call it beta, then players have expectations and want timetables...By using the alpha term, they have no time limits for launch or any other goal.
    Plus, if players are paying money to join in Beta, why not charge them to participate in Alpha, pre-Alpha, etc?  More chances to sell stuff.  I'm just surprised (and a little bit thankful) they haven't tried to sell "conceptual level access".




    DragonJockey

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Castekin1999Castekin1999 Newbie CommonPosts: 11
    Arterius said:
    This is a tough one to write as I put 1k into Pantheon:RotF shortly after the first PA test ended. I have been following the game with bated breath and have absorbed every bit of info I could on the game. I have been anticipating in playing in the Alpha and have been watching the last year and a half tick by with nothing. Now work continues on Project: Faerthale almost a year after the last PA started. According to newsletter PA3 started in November/December of 2018. 

    Now I don't consider Pantheon:RotF vaporware. We get a steady stream of updates and its obvious they are working on a game at this moment. We also know a few dozen devs are working on. Though technically vaporware is described as,  software or hardware that has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed.  So I guess lots of games are vaporware including Death Stranding, Cyberpunk 2077, and any game in development right now. 

    With a heavy heart I have to ask this question is Pantheon in trouble? There store is still open and Pantheon is the one of the only crowd funded MMO's that doesn't talk about how much money they raised. Nowhere. Not in one of there monthly blogs, on the website like Crowfall, Camelot: Uncleaned, Star Citizen, or Dual Citizen does. I would have to believe if they were getting quite a bit of money they would want to advertise that.

    Then on Wednesday they opened a store with ridiculous prices where the funds will also go to funding the game. I was led to believe that the game was already funded till launch. Though looking into this more I may have been a fool for thinking this. Confusing it with another upcoming MMO as I couldn't find that Reddit comment nor could I find a statement to that at all. All I could find was this:
    http://visionaryrealms.com/visionary-realms-closes-series-a-funding-for-highly-anticipated-videogame-pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/

    I hate to say this but I think Visionary Realms is burning through money. As much as people would like to blame this on Brad it wouldn't be him this time. He learned his mistake on Vanguard and hired someone else to keep track of the books and money. If they aren't bringing enough money in though not much that guy can do.

    This game is already taking longer then it was supposed to. PA was supposed to last a year, with Alpha for a year, and beta for 6-8 months. If they had kept to that timeline then we would be almost to the end of the Alpha phase. In January or so of 2020 we would be getting into beta.

    So I have to ask again... Is Pantheon in trouble? The honest answer is we will never know until someone official comes and tells us everything is ok. For now though I am going to say that it is.

    You put in 1K that is a shame it really is.  I know someone who put in triple that for the Reignborn pledge, I wanted to slap him when I found out.  Arterius despite what the fanboys on these forums tell you, that money is gone...…..wasted:/

     

    I do not know how Brad keeps getting away with this, how many times is he going to fool the community.


  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,989

    I do not know how Brad keeps getting away with this, how many times is he going to fool the community.


    About as many times a Smedley did.


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,946
    Tiller said:

    I do not know how Brad keeps getting away with this, how many times is he going to fool the community.


    About as many times a Smedley did.
    When Smed's crowd funded effort tanked he refunded everyones money, or so I've read. 

    Not likely to be the outcome here should the worst happen. 
    bcbully

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,662
    Kyleran said:
    Tiller said:

    I do not know how Brad keeps getting away with this, how many times is he going to fool the community.


    About as many times a Smedley did.
    When Smed's crowd funded effort tanked he refunded everyones money, or so I've read. 

    Not likely to be the outcome here should the worst happen. 
    They did. I bought into that project either on KS or Steam and they refunded me. They sent me a personal mail even with an apology. I was surprised.
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

    It only took 3 people 8 words to rock Blizzard to its core.
  • TokkenTokken Member RarePosts: 2,189
    I haven't bought into the game yet.... I want to...... but I want to see more progress first. I am hopeful. Just cautious.
    Amathe
    Make PvE GREAT Again!
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,196
    Selling T-shirts is not an omen of doom.
    Even games that are doing well sell merchandise.
    AdamantineAmathe
Sign In or Register to comment.