Even if all mobs were same level with players you still had to gear up for tougher mobs and instance bosses. Ofc you should somehow know the relative power level of mobs, which could be indicated by a small number in mob's portrait.
In Guild Wars 1, there were only 20 levels, and you could easily achieve max level before being half way through, especially in Prophecies. You then did progress through acquiring more skills (especially elite skills) and getting that shiny elite armor (that had the exact same stats as the regular version). You also optimized your build (so runes and skills). Once they were introduced, you also gathered more heroes, collected skills for them, adjusted their gear..
All while continuing with quests and dungeons, until you were ready for the really hard dungeons, with Slavers' Exile probably being the hardest.
Your level didn't change, but you certainly were not ready for those the moment you hit 20. Neither was the Guild Wars beyond storyline doable right away.
And with all the achievements added via the Hall of Monuments, you had plenty to do even when only playing one character. Progression was mostly horizontally, with you getting more choices on how to do things, instead of adding another zero to all stats.
The way it was set up also had the advantage that they didn't need to raise level cap with each addon or any other additional content, and that content wasn't suddenly useless.
A game were levels are not really important, without any hard gate keepers, but with lots of character progression and different levels of difficulty for instances is certainly possible, you just have to design it that way from the ground up.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step. If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power. It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
NPC power differentiation has always been a thing in RPGs with levels. It adds variety and challenge but that's about it. It has nothing to do with whether you or the NPC has a level number.
Levels are nothing more than an indicator of how far you've progressed in a given RPG system. It's a useful tool for you and for others to know your relative power and what you can and can't handle.
It doesn't have to be called levels. It can be called "champion points" or "paragon points." It can be done with colors or it can be done any other way you want but the whole point of RPGs is advancement and I sure as hell want some sort of system to let me know how far I've progressed and at least a rough estimate of whether I have a chance or no hope in hell of succeeding at something I'm thinking of doing.
I also want to know if a stranger I just met can help me succeed or will just be a passenger.
Let me know how I can know those things without a level system - whether explicitly called levels, renamed or disguised - and I'm all ears.
I haven't really since NPC disparity in a while. Most NPC are the same except models and power aesthetics. You don't use your powers differently except in dungeons and raids.
Again, obsession if there is levels hidden vs. how the game is fundamentally changed is side tracking. Its irrelevant. Levels as a power platform is a pretty specific way to design an RPG. But at the end of the day if you removed levels for most themeparks you'd have gameplay similar to level scaling without the levels.
Even if all mobs were same level with players you still had to gear up for tougher mobs and instance bosses. Ofc you should somehow know the relative power level of mobs, which could be indicated by a small number in mob's portrait.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sure would, just depends on what system replaces it. Just give me stats and I can function just fine. You would know when you can fight certain mobs based on your stats instead. Levels just provide a convenient and easy singular reference point.
You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step. If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power. It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
NPC power differentiation has always been a thing in RPGs with levels. It adds variety and challenge but that's about it. It has nothing to do with whether you or the NPC has a level number.
Levels are nothing more than an indicator of how far you've progressed in a given RPG system. It's a useful tool for you and for others to know your relative power and what you can and can't handle.
It doesn't have to be called levels. It can be called "champion points" or "paragon points." It can be done with colors or it can be done any other way you want but the whole point of RPGs is advancement and I sure as hell want some sort of system to let me know how far I've progressed and at least a rough estimate of whether I have a chance or no hope in hell of succeeding at something I'm thinking of doing.
I also want to know if a stranger I just met can help me succeed or will just be a passenger.
Let me know how I can know those things without a level system - whether explicitly called levels, renamed or disguised - and I'm all ears.
Did you need levels to know the that Naxx is higher progressive tier than Blackwing Lair, or that AQ was higher difficulty tier than Molten Core? Did "Character levels" tell you these things?
You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step. If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power. It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
NPC power differentiation has always been a thing in RPGs with levels. It adds variety and challenge but that's about it. It has nothing to do with whether you or the NPC has a level number.
Levels are nothing more than an indicator of how far you've progressed in a given RPG system. It's a useful tool for you and for others to know your relative power and what you can and can't handle.
It doesn't have to be called levels. It can be called "champion points" or "paragon points." It can be done with colors or it can be done any other way you want but the whole point of RPGs is advancement and I sure as hell want some sort of system to let me know how far I've progressed and at least a rough estimate of whether I have a chance or no hope in hell of succeeding at something I'm thinking of doing.
I also want to know if a stranger I just met can help me succeed or will just be a passenger.
Let me know how I can know those things without a level system - whether explicitly called levels, renamed or disguised - and I'm all ears.
Did you need levels to know the that Naxx is higher progressive tier than Blackwing Lair, or that AQ was higher difficulty tier than Molten Core? Did "Character levels" tell you these things?
In vanilla WoW what level was these things?
Character levels or gear levels... WTF is the difference? You were still leveling except by that point you were doing it with gear.
Man you guys are easily fooled.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Let me know how I can know those things without a level system - whether explicitly called levels, renamed or disguised - and I'm all ears.
Did you need levels to know the that Naxx is higher progressive tier than Blackwing Lair, or that AQ was higher difficulty tier than Molten Core? Did "Character levels" tell you these things?
In vanilla WoW what level was these things?
Character levels or gear levels... WTF is the difference? You were still leveling except by that point you were doing it with gear.
Man you guys are easily fooled.
Difference is that one is dependent on what you wearing, the other is not and permanently attached to your player character.
I can take off my gear as a level 60 and still be a level 60 but with a different item level. I can switch my gear to something else completely that fits the fight, such as fire resistance gear, etc. But still level 60.
Not sure why you don't see the difference there. A game world where everything from day one is level 60 and you start off at as a level 60. Same concept as having no character levels. All dungeons from day one is endgame progression, not just a few.
Here is a quick copy paste of a list of Dungeons by level in Vanilla WoW.
On that list alone there are 19,,,, "NINETEEN" dungeons that are low level content and meaningless to endgame progression or once you outlevel that Dungeon.
In a Levelless system all 19, ALL NINETEEN, of those dungeons are endgame progression since it's content designed around the same level with different difficulty different kinds of rewards for your character's development.
This above is just a list of the Dungeon instances by level. Now look up a list of all the Zones by level and you will see just how much of the game world is for lower level content that is meaningless to your progression if you outlevel that zone and on the flip side you are gated from exploring zones that you aren't at that level range, since Aggro ranges increase and damage crushing blows happen if you are below the level range to even explore the world.
All those zones would be same level. You would have full exploration in the game world. Go where you want, do what you want. Progress how you want. That's true freedom. Like a Skyrim Elder Scrolls game or something but as a MMORPG.
In Skyrim/Oblivion you can go anywhere and do anything in whatever order you want other than main quest. Since the world scaled with you it pretty much the same as one True Levelless MMO. Your character progresses but the whole game world stay relevant forever.
Difference is that one is dependent on what you wearing, the other is not and permanently attached to your player character.
I can take off my gear as a level 60 and still be a level 60 but with a different item level. I can switch my gear to something else completely that fits the fight, such as fire resistance gear, etc. But still level 60.
Not sure why you don't see the difference there. A game world where everything from day one is level 60 and you start off at as a level 60. Same concept as having no character levels. All dungeons from day one is endgame progression, not just a few. <snip>
On that list alone there are 19,,,, "NINETEEN" dungeons that are low level content and meaningless to endgame progression or once you outlevel that Dungeon.
In a Levelless system all 19, ALL NINETEEN, of those dungeons are endgame progression since it's content designed around the same level with different difficulty different kinds of rewards for your character's development.
This above is just a list of the Dungeon instances by level. Now look up a list of all the Zones by level and you will see just how much of the game world is for lower level content that is meaningless to your progression if you outlevel that zone and on the flip side you are gated from exploring zones that you aren't at that level range, since Aggro ranges increase and damage crushing blows happen if you are below the level range to even explore the world.
All those zones would be same level. You would have full exploration in the game world. Go where you want, do what you want. Progress how you want. That's true freedom. Like a Skyrim Elder Scrolls game or something but as a MMORPG.
In Skyrim/Oblivion you can go anywhere and do anything in whatever order you want other than main quest. Since the world scaled with you it pretty much the same as one True Levelless MMO. Your character progresses but the whole game world stay relevant forever.
I know you've played ESO so you know that there is no content there that becomes irrelevant - neither zones nor dungeons - and since the gear there is all about sets and their bonuses the gear at level 10 can be the same set with the same bonuses as at endgame. The gear doesn't level with you so you do have to re-craft it or re-grind for it but the point is that if you're happy with a set and want to keep using it, you can. You can also go anywhere in any order, etc., etc.,
You must have also noticed that THERE ARE STILL LEVElS and leveling in ESO. They're there in the traditional 1-50 sense, in the CP system after that and in the individual skill line, skill and morph leveling. It's got leveling up the yin yang in fact. And yet all these wonderful things you attribute to removing levels are still there right alongside all that leveling.
Obviously you can have both, levels as an indicator of progress and scaled content that is never irrelevant together in one game.
You are confusing the effects of level gated content with the levels themselves when in fact they are two different things.
ESO also has as I'm sure you know, horizontal gearing with a lot of special purpose sets that are not necessarily better than other sets, just different and more useful in some cases than others.
So there's that game with levels that has all the things you guys are always dreaming that a game without levels would have and it still has levels... go figure.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I probably felt I'm more forced to do things. In a level system I can play how ever I want. In an objective system I'm forced to do things.
Taking away leveling but telling people you need to complete quest which aren't skipable...
In most levelless systems quest would be skippable because you aren't forced to level.
The OP says you still need to complete objective to unlock skill and explore as normal. I'm not sure how much work that is. I probably have a misunderstanding on what he mean.
I probably felt I'm more forced to do things. In a level system I can play how ever I want. In an objective system I'm forced to do things.
Taking away leveling but telling people you need to complete quest which aren't skipable...
In most levelless systems quest would be skippable because you aren't forced to level.
The OP says you still need to complete objective to unlock skill and explore as normal. I'm not sure how much work that is. I probably have a misunderstanding on what he mean.
Example :
To unlock frost storm on your Mage/Shaman/whatever class insert here
You need to save a family of NPC from a burning house or forest.
There is your objective. Go into the game world and when you come across a similar scenario you save the family from the fire and unlock brand new spell your class uses.
Just like an achievement reward. Totally free exploration style. Didn't say it had to be done in zone 10, could be done in the the zone on the other side of the planet or something. But it's an objective. Not a "Hey level grind to level 30 to unlock X, y, z". Again the whole game is endgame.
Whole game is endgame kind of seems like a mobile game where you do the same content over and over but the rewards are determined by tier difficulty. Essentially a lobby gear grind game then where your power is mostly determined by gear? Hrmm, or maybe Vermintide 2 is a better example of the type of game you're proposing?
Edit cause I overlooked the part in your OP
"All gear is meaningful and not level gated since there is no levels"
I probably felt I'm more forced to do things. In a level system I can play how ever I want. In an objective system I'm forced to do things.
Taking away leveling but telling people you need to complete quest which aren't skipable...
In most levelless systems quest would be skippable because you aren't forced to level.
The OP says you still need to complete objective to unlock skill and explore as normal. I'm not sure how much work that is. I probably have a misunderstanding on what he mean.
Example :
To unlock frost storm on your Mage/Shaman/whatever class insert here
You need to save a family of NPC from a burning house or forest.
There is your objective. Go into the game world and when you come across a similar scenario you save the family from the fire and unlock brand new spell your class uses.
Just like an achievement reward. Totally free exploration style. Didn't say it had to be done in zone 10, could be done in the the zone on the other side of the planet or something. But it's an objective. Not a "Hey level grind to level 30 to unlock X, y, z". Again the whole game is endgame.
I like the concept. It could be more complicated, with multiple quests objectives, for more powerful skills or abilities. There's other possibilities too, like performing one of a set of objectives. Alternately, you could have objectives based on learning, from scrolls and tomes, or from scenes carved on dungeon or ruin walls...that sort of thing.
I've always dreamed about a game that removed the typical WoW-style questing, but offered progression strictly through dungeons/raids/events/whatever. Perhaps through gear or some other mechanic.
It really would be another form of leveling, but a much less tedious one IMO.
You're talking about Destiny.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I would cherry pick quests and dungeons based on skill and gear progression while simultaneously ignoring most of the world and kill/collection quests. The hard part would be getting enough money for mounts and it would involve a huge amount of traveling at the start and all the running is even worse than doing boring kill/collection quests just to level.
The carrot on a stick is what gets players started in mmorpg and what keeps them playing long after the game stopped being fun. Without that part most games ends up empty quickly.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Here is better question , if you let WOW players max level at start , how will they play the game ?
The same way they always do...stand around their faction major city calling everyone not in raid gear noob, "dueling" in Elwynn forest, or telling Chuck Norris jokes in Barrens chat. You know...because all of this is really fun stuff.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I probably felt I'm more forced to do things. In a level system I can play how ever I want. In an objective system I'm forced to do things.
Taking away leveling but telling people you need to complete quest which aren't skipable...
In most levelless systems quest would be skippable because you aren't forced to level.
The OP says you still need to complete objective to unlock skill and explore as normal. I'm not sure how much work that is. I probably have a misunderstanding on what he mean.
Example :
To unlock frost storm on your Mage/Shaman/whatever class insert here
You need to save a family of NPC from a burning house or forest.
There is your objective. Go into the game world and when you come across a similar scenario you save the family from the fire and unlock brand new spell your class uses.
Just like an achievement reward. Totally free exploration style. Didn't say it had to be done in zone 10, could be done in the the zone on the other side of the planet or something. But it's an objective. Not a "Hey level grind to level 30 to unlock X, y, z". Again the whole game is endgame.
I like the concept. It could be more complicated, with multiple quests objectives, for more powerful skills or abilities. There's other possibilities too, like performing one of a set of objectives. Alternately, you could have objectives based on learning, from scrolls and tomes, or from scenes carved on dungeon or ruin walls...that sort of thing.
I like it. I like it a lot.
In some games players used to be able to improve their skills by watching (being near) other players using said skills. That idea could be used here too, where a player could learn new skills/spells/actions by witnessing MOBs using them. Or at least in part. Maybe the player has to read a Tome first, then see it in action, to learn it. Or maybe there's only a chance to learn it so it's not too easily gained.
Edit: BTW, I've been proposing this sort of learning through world interaction for years. But the Level Grinders aren't too keen on change. lol
In Guild Wars 1, there were only 20 levels, and you could easily achieve max level before being half way through, especially in Prophecies. You then did progress through acquiring more skills (especially elite skills) and getting that shiny elite armor (that had the exact same stats as the regular version). You also optimized your build (so runes and skills). Once they were introduced, you also gathered more heroes, collected skills for them, adjusted their gear..
All while continuing with quests and dungeons, until you were ready for the really hard dungeons, with Slavers' Exile probably being the hardest.
Your level didn't change, but you certainly were not ready for those the moment you hit 20. Neither was the Guild Wars beyond storyline doable right away.
And with all the achievements added via the Hall of Monuments, you had plenty to do even when only playing one character. Progression was mostly horizontally, with you getting more choices on how to do things, instead of adding another zero to all stats.
The way it was set up also had the advantage that they didn't need to raise level cap with each addon or any other additional content, and that content wasn't suddenly useless.
A game were levels are not really important, without any hard gate keepers, but with lots of character progression and different levels of difficulty for instances is certainly possible, you just have to design it that way from the ground up.
Slaver's Exile was added with Eye of the North which completely changed how the game worked. That is the content addition that bridged the gap between GW1 and GW2. A lot changed with EotN. Before that Guild Wars didn't even have dungeons, and certainly not in Prophecies. It had missions and explorable areas not dungeons.
There was no real progression past level 20. Adding skills didn't make you inherently more powerful, they gave you options for offensive tactics and counters. Green and Gold gear could make you more powerful than lower level gear but once at 20 they didn't get more powerful either. It wasn't like you could get more and more powerful gear.
Any team could do all the Prophecies content without Golds/Greens and with skills/elites capped along the way. There were only 2 major rites of passage and that was fighting your own simulacrum in the desert and Infusion to ward against spectral agony, but those weren't level gated.
I can't agree that EotN represents how GW1 worked at all. A lot of MMO gamers I knew from Lineage went on to play WoW instead of GW1 because the latter didn't have any real progression. I didn't mind it. I also feel that EotN tried to add that in and it feels awkward.
Due to the lack of progression past 20 I felt lost back when I played GW1. I kept going back after each expansion but would only really play PvP content. I ended up going to WoW and L2 back around that time as they offered a more structured experience.
You're on the right track but all zones being equal creates the same issue we have in other games with scaled mobs and content. There's a freedom to go anywhere you want, but it's also equally pointless. In a leveless game you don't have to complete quests for experience but only for story and quest rewards. If some gear items are among these rewards, then the quest also has to be a certain position in the power curve. A newly rolled character killing mobs for a reward that matches power with an item in - lets say - Razorfen Krauls would be a huge problem. For that reason "the leveless game" would indeed have levels, but only for mobs. Player characters are static and only gain power through gear (and possibly some other ways as well).
However, nothing would prevent the players with higher item level to "boost" dungeons for others. You could also buy any gear on auction house and skip whatever amount of content as long as you have gold to do so. Lets say you have a character who have cleared Molten Core. With all gold this character has in his pockets you could buy gear that matches the power level of gear acquired from Zul'Farrak, for example. Or, you could grind ordinary mobs for gold and buy a few items on AH that are more powerful than boss loot in the dungeon you're about to enter next, thus kind of "overleveling" it a bit to make things easier. So the game like this would face all the same issues it already has in its current form, which we're so anxious to get rid of.
One possible solution could be to create a system to "earn access" to gear of certain quality. Maybe a story related milestone system or some other kind of method to gate content properly. And when you're ahead enough in power curve your access to lower level dungeons should somehow be denied. Preferably with a system that makes sense also in the game world.
As you said in your post:
"In a Levelless system all 19, ALL NINETEEN, of those dungeons are endgame progression since it's content designed around the same level with different difficulty different kinds of rewards for your character's development".
This is, in my opinion, the bread and butter of any journey based MMORPG game and something worth to design well. A player shouldn't be able to outlevel any content, nor should he be allowed to progress further in game without constant upgrades in his character's power. People often say "the game beings in the end game", and they are right because that's the first time in the game you're not able to get more levels to make things easier for you. Everything comes from the gear at that point. This should be true throughout the game, not only after a long and pointless leveling period.
Comments
Even if all mobs were same level with players you still had to gear up for tougher mobs and instance bosses. Ofc you should somehow know the relative power level of mobs, which could be indicated by a small number in mob's portrait.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
What he is describing is an alternate progression system for a theme park game.
I am not a fan of WoW in any iteration since Vanilla, and I have already done that, so see no need to revisit it.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Again, obsession if there is levels hidden vs. how the game is fundamentally changed is side tracking. Its irrelevant. Levels as a power platform is a pretty specific way to design an RPG. But at the end of the day if you removed levels for most themeparks you'd have gameplay similar to level scaling without the levels.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
or that AQ was higher difficulty tier than Molten Core?
Did "Character levels" tell you these things?
In vanilla WoW what level was these things?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Man you guys are easily fooled.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I can take off my gear as a level 60 and still be a level 60 but with a different item level. I can switch my gear to something else completely that fits the fight, such as fire resistance gear, etc. But still level 60.
Not sure why you don't see the difference there.
A game world where everything from day one is level 60 and you start off at as a level 60. Same concept as having no character levels. All dungeons from day one is endgame progression, not just a few.
Here is a quick copy paste of a list of Dungeons by level in Vanilla WoW.
- (8)13-18: Ragefire Chasm
- (10)17-24: The Deadmines
- (10)17-24: Wailing Caverns
- (14)22-30: Shadowfang Keep
- (15)24-31: The Stockade
- (15)24-32: Blackfathom Deeps
- (19)29-38: Gnomeregan
- (19)29-38: Razorfen Kraul
- (21)34-45: The Scarlet Monastery
- (25)37-46: Razorfen Downs
- (30)41-51: Uldaman
- (35)44-54: Zul'Farrak
- (35)46-55: Maraudon
- (35)50-60: Temple of Atal'hakkar (The Sunken Temple)
- (40)52-60: Blackrock Depths
- (45)55-60: Blackrock Spire
- 55-60: Lower Blackrock Spire
- 58-60: Upper Blackrock Spire 10-man Raid
- (45)56-60: Dire Maul
- (45)58-60: Stratholme
- (45)58-60: Scholomance
- (50)60+: Onyxia's Lair 40-man Raid
- (60)60+: Zul'Gurub 20-man Raid
- (58)60+: Molten Core 40-man Raid
- (60)60++: Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj 20-man Raid
- (60)60++: Blackwing Lair 40-man Raid
- (60)60+++: Temple of Ahn'Qiraj 40-man Raid
- (60)60++++: Naxxramas 40-man Raid
On that list alone there are 19,,,, "NINETEEN" dungeons that are low level content and meaningless to endgame progression or once you outlevel that Dungeon.In a Levelless system all 19, ALL NINETEEN, of those dungeons are endgame progression since it's content designed around the same level with different difficulty different kinds of rewards for your character's development.
This above is just a list of the Dungeon instances by level. Now look up a list of all the Zones by level and you will see just how much of the game world is for lower level content that is meaningless to your progression if you outlevel that zone and on the flip side you are gated from exploring zones that you aren't at that level range, since Aggro ranges increase and damage crushing blows happen if you are below the level range to even explore the world.
All those zones would be same level. You would have full exploration in the game world. Go where you want, do what you want. Progress how you want. That's true freedom. Like a Skyrim Elder Scrolls game or something but as a MMORPG.
In Skyrim/Oblivion you can go anywhere and do anything in whatever order you want other than main quest. Since the world scaled with you it pretty much the same as one True Levelless MMO. Your character progresses but the whole game world stay relevant forever.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Nahh.
You must have also noticed that THERE ARE STILL LEVElS and leveling in ESO. They're there in the traditional 1-50 sense, in the CP system after that and in the individual skill line, skill and morph leveling. It's got leveling up the yin yang in fact. And yet all these wonderful things you attribute to removing levels are still there right alongside all that leveling.
Obviously you can have both, levels as an indicator of progress and scaled content that is never irrelevant together in one game.
You are confusing the effects of level gated content with the levels themselves when in fact they are two different things.
ESO also has as I'm sure you know, horizontal gearing with a lot of special purpose sets that are not necessarily better than other sets, just different and more useful in some cases than others.
So there's that game with levels that has all the things you guys are always dreaming that a game without levels would have and it still has levels... go figure.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
To unlock frost storm on your Mage/Shaman/whatever class insert here
You need to save a family of NPC from a burning house or forest.
There is your objective. Go into the game world and when you come across a similar scenario you save the family from the fire and unlock brand new spell your class uses.
Just like an achievement reward.
Totally free exploration style. Didn't say it had to be done in zone 10, could be done in the the zone on the other side of the planet or something. But it's an objective. Not a "Hey level grind to level 30 to unlock X, y, z". Again the whole game is endgame.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
It could be more complicated, with multiple quests objectives, for more powerful skills or abilities. There's other possibilities too, like performing one of a set of objectives.
Alternately, you could have objectives based on learning, from scrolls and tomes, or from scenes carved on dungeon or ruin walls...that sort of thing.
I like it. I like it a lot.
Once upon a time....
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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The carrot on a stick is what gets players started in mmorpg and what keeps them playing long after the game stopped being fun. Without that part most games ends up empty quickly.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
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That idea could be used here too, where a player could learn new skills/spells/actions by witnessing MOBs using them.
Or at least in part. Maybe the player has to read a Tome first, then see it in action, to learn it. Or maybe there's only a chance to learn it so it's not too easily gained.
Edit: BTW, I've been proposing this sort of learning through world interaction for years.
But the Level Grinders aren't too keen on change. lol
Once upon a time....
You're on the right track but all zones being equal creates the same issue we have in other games with scaled mobs and content. There's a freedom to go anywhere you want, but it's also equally pointless. In a leveless game you don't have to complete quests for experience but only for story and quest rewards. If some gear items are among these rewards, then the quest also has to be a certain position in the power curve. A newly rolled character killing mobs for a reward that matches power with an item in - lets say - Razorfen Krauls would be a huge problem. For that reason "the leveless game" would indeed have levels, but only for mobs. Player characters are static and only gain power through gear (and possibly some other ways as well).