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How would you play a MMO like Classic WoW if it had no Character levels(1-60)?

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  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,171
    Themepark without levels.

    So just run quests for ... umm .. lore?

    I'd rather disembowel myself with a butter knife.
    IselinKyleranWaan
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,095
    edited September 22
    I probably felt I'm more forced to do things.  In a level system I can play how ever I want.  In an objective system I'm forced to do things.  

    Taking away leveling but telling people you need to complete quest which aren't skipable...
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,902
    Iselin said:
     Gating content behind skill...  
    You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
    Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step.  If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power.  It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
    NPC power differentiation has always been a thing in RPGs with levels. It adds variety and challenge but that's about it. It has nothing to do with whether you or the NPC has a level number.

    Levels are nothing more than an indicator of how far you've progressed in a given RPG system. It's a useful tool for you and for others to know your relative power and what you can and can't handle.

    It doesn't have to be called levels. It can be called "champion points" or "paragon points." It can be done with colors or it can be done any other way you want but the whole point of RPGs is advancement and I sure as hell want some sort of system to let me know how far I've progressed and at least a rough estimate of whether I have a chance or no hope in hell of succeeding at something I'm thinking of doing.

    I also want to know if a stranger I just met can help me succeed or will just be a passenger.

    Let me know how I can know those things without a level system - whether explicitly called levels, renamed or disguised -  and I'm all ears.
    Kyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 6,894
    I've always dreamed about a game that removed the typical WoW-style questing, but offered progression strictly through dungeons/raids/events/whatever. Perhaps through gear or some other mechanic.

    It really would be another form of leveling, but a much less tedious one IMO.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,933
    AAAMEOW said:
    I probably felt I'm more forced to do things.  In a level system I can play how ever I want.  In an objective system I'm forced to do things.  

    Taking away leveling but telling people you need to complete quest which aren't skipable...
    In most levelless systems quest would be skippable because you aren't forced to level.  

    MMOExposed
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,344
    You would play it through gear progression.

    Even if all mobs were same level with players you still had to gear up for tougher mobs and instance bosses. Ofc you should somehow know the relative power level of mobs, which could be indicated by a small number in mob's portrait. ;)
  • AnirethAnireth Member UncommonPosts: 938
    In Guild Wars 1, there were only 20 levels, and you could easily achieve max level before being half way through, especially in Prophecies. You then did progress through acquiring more skills (especially elite skills) and getting that shiny elite armor (that had the exact same stats as the regular version). You also optimized your build (so runes and skills). Once they were introduced, you also gathered more heroes, collected skills for them, adjusted their gear..

    All while continuing with quests and dungeons, until you were ready for the really hard dungeons, with Slavers' Exile probably being the hardest.

    Your level didn't change, but you certainly were not ready for those the moment you hit 20.  Neither was the Guild Wars beyond storyline doable right away.

    And with all the achievements added via the Hall of Monuments, you had plenty to do even when only playing one character. Progression was mostly horizontally, with you getting more choices on how to do things, instead of adding another zero to all stats.

    The way it was set up also had the advantage that they didn't need to raise level cap with each addon or any other additional content, and that content wasn't suddenly useless.

    A game were levels are not really important, without any hard gate keepers, but with lots of character progression and different levels of difficulty for instances is certainly possible, you just have to design it that way from the ground up.

    I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
    And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
    Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
    And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,179
    cheeba said:
    Quizzical said:
    You're asking if people would still play a theme park if it removed nearly all of its content?


    The game hes describing doesn't sound very theme park to me.  Sounds kinda sandbox with quests and raids and stuff..
    Nothing about that describes a Sandbox. For the record, Sandbox games can have quests and Raids.

    What he is describing is an alternate progression system for a theme park game.

    I am not a fan of WoW in any iteration since Vanilla, and I have already done that, so see no need to revisit it.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,933
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
     Gating content behind skill...  
    You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
    Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step.  If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power.  It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
    NPC power differentiation has always been a thing in RPGs with levels. It adds variety and challenge but that's about it. It has nothing to do with whether you or the NPC has a level number.

    Levels are nothing more than an indicator of how far you've progressed in a given RPG system. It's a useful tool for you and for others to know your relative power and what you can and can't handle.

    It doesn't have to be called levels. It can be called "champion points" or "paragon points." It can be done with colors or it can be done any other way you want but the whole point of RPGs is advancement and I sure as hell want some sort of system to let me know how far I've progressed and at least a rough estimate of whether I have a chance or no hope in hell of succeeding at something I'm thinking of doing.

    I also want to know if a stranger I just met can help me succeed or will just be a passenger.

    Let me know how I can know those things without a level system - whether explicitly called levels, renamed or disguised -  and I'm all ears.
    I haven't really since NPC disparity in a while. Most NPC are the same except models and power aesthetics. You don't use your powers differently except in dungeons and raids.

    Again, obsession if there is levels hidden vs. how the game is fundamentally changed is side tracking.  Its irrelevant.  Levels as a power platform is a pretty specific way to design an RPG.  But at the end of the day if you removed levels for most themeparks you'd have gameplay similar to level scaling without the levels.






    MMOExposed
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,913
    edited September 22
    deniter said:
    You would play it through gear progression.

    Even if all mobs were same level with players you still had to gear up for tougher mobs and instance bosses. Ofc you should somehow know the relative power level of mobs, which could be indicated by a small number in mob's portrait. ;)
    Time for a Jethro Gibbs headslap.

     >:) 
    Hatefull

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,829
    Sure would, just depends on what system replaces it.  Just give me stats and I can function just fine.  You would know when you can fight certain mobs based on your stats instead.  Levels just provide a convenient and easy singular reference point.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,945
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
     Gating content behind skill...  
    You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
    Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step.  If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power.  It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
    NPC power differentiation has always been a thing in RPGs with levels. It adds variety and challenge but that's about it. It has nothing to do with whether you or the NPC has a level number.

    Levels are nothing more than an indicator of how far you've progressed in a given RPG system. It's a useful tool for you and for others to know your relative power and what you can and can't handle.

    It doesn't have to be called levels. It can be called "champion points" or "paragon points." It can be done with colors or it can be done any other way you want but the whole point of RPGs is advancement and I sure as hell want some sort of system to let me know how far I've progressed and at least a rough estimate of whether I have a chance or no hope in hell of succeeding at something I'm thinking of doing.

    I also want to know if a stranger I just met can help me succeed or will just be a passenger.

    Let me know how I can know those things without a level system - whether explicitly called levels, renamed or disguised -  and I'm all ears.
    Did you need levels to know the that Naxx is higher progressive tier than Blackwing Lair,
    or that AQ was higher difficulty tier than Molten Core?
    Did "Character levels" tell you these things?

    In vanilla WoW what level was these things? 
    IselinKyleranSlapshot1188

    image

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,902
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
     Gating content behind skill...  
    You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
    Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step.  If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power.  It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
    NPC power differentiation has always been a thing in RPGs with levels. It adds variety and challenge but that's about it. It has nothing to do with whether you or the NPC has a level number.

    Levels are nothing more than an indicator of how far you've progressed in a given RPG system. It's a useful tool for you and for others to know your relative power and what you can and can't handle.

    It doesn't have to be called levels. It can be called "champion points" or "paragon points." It can be done with colors or it can be done any other way you want but the whole point of RPGs is advancement and I sure as hell want some sort of system to let me know how far I've progressed and at least a rough estimate of whether I have a chance or no hope in hell of succeeding at something I'm thinking of doing.

    I also want to know if a stranger I just met can help me succeed or will just be a passenger.

    Let me know how I can know those things without a level system - whether explicitly called levels, renamed or disguised -  and I'm all ears.
    Did you need levels to know the that Naxx is higher progressive tier than Blackwing Lair,
    or that AQ was higher difficulty tier than Molten Core?
    Did "Character levels" tell you these things?

    In vanilla WoW what level was these things? 
    Character levels or gear levels... WTF is the difference? You were still leveling except by that point you were doing it with gear.

    Man you guys are easily fooled.
    KyleranSlapshot1188Torval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,945
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
     Gating content behind skill...  
     about gating content behind skill.

    help me succeed or will just be a passenger.

    Let me know how I can know those things without a level system - whether explicitly called levels, renamed or disguised -  and I'm all ears.
    Did you need levels to know the that Naxx is higher progressive tier than Blackwing Lair,
    or that AQ was higher difficulty tier than Molten Core?
    Did "Character levels" tell you these things?

    In vanilla WoW what level was these things? 
    Character levels or gear levels... WTF is the difference? You were still leveling except by that point you were doing it with gear.

    Man you guys are easily fooled.
    Difference is that one is dependent on what you wearing, the other is not and permanently attached to your player character.

    I can take off my gear as a level 60 and still be a level 60 but with a different item level. I can switch my gear to something else completely that fits the fight, such as fire resistance gear, etc. But still level 60.

    Not sure why you don't see the difference there. 
    A game world where everything from day one is level 60 and you start off at as a level 60. Same concept as having no character levels. All dungeons from day one is endgame progression, not just a few.

    Here is a quick copy paste of a list of Dungeons by level in Vanilla WoW. 

    On that list alone there are 19,,,, "NINETEEN" dungeons that are low level content and meaningless to endgame progression or once you outlevel that Dungeon.

    In a Levelless system all 19, ALL NINETEEN, of those dungeons are endgame progression since it's content designed around the same level with different difficulty different kinds of rewards for your character's development.

    This above is just a list of the Dungeon instances by level. Now look up a list of all the Zones by level and you will see just how much of the game world is for lower level content that is meaningless to your progression if you outlevel that zone and on the flip side you are gated from exploring zones that you aren't at that level range, since Aggro ranges increase and damage crushing blows happen if you are below the level range to even explore the world. 

    All those zones would be same level. You would have full exploration in the game world. Go where you want, do what you want. Progress how you want. That's true freedom. Like a Skyrim Elder Scrolls game or something but as a MMORPG.

    In Skyrim/Oblivion you can go anywhere and do anything in whatever order you want other than main quest. Since the world scaled with you it pretty much the same as one True Levelless MMO. Your character progresses but the whole game world stay relevant forever. 

    image

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    Sounds like level scaling to me....
    Nahh.
    Amaranthar
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,902

    Difference is that one is dependent on what you wearing, the other is not and permanently attached to your player character.

    I can take off my gear as a level 60 and still be a level 60 but with a different item level. I can switch my gear to something else completely that fits the fight, such as fire resistance gear, etc. But still level 60.

    Not sure why you don't see the difference there. 
    A game world where everything from day one is level 60 and you start off at as a level 60. Same concept as having no character levels. All dungeons from day one is endgame progression, not just a few.
    <snip>

    On that list alone there are 19,,,, "NINETEEN" dungeons that are low level content and meaningless to endgame progression or once you outlevel that Dungeon.

    In a Levelless system all 19, ALL NINETEEN, of those dungeons are endgame progression since it's content designed around the same level with different difficulty different kinds of rewards for your character's development.

    This above is just a list of the Dungeon instances by level. Now look up a list of all the Zones by level and you will see just how much of the game world is for lower level content that is meaningless to your progression if you outlevel that zone and on the flip side you are gated from exploring zones that you aren't at that level range, since Aggro ranges increase and damage crushing blows happen if you are below the level range to even explore the world. 

    All those zones would be same level. You would have full exploration in the game world. Go where you want, do what you want. Progress how you want. That's true freedom. Like a Skyrim Elder Scrolls game or something but as a MMORPG.

    In Skyrim/Oblivion you can go anywhere and do anything in whatever order you want other than main quest. Since the world scaled with you it pretty much the same as one True Levelless MMO. Your character progresses but the whole game world stay relevant forever. 
    I know you've played ESO so you know that there is no content there that becomes irrelevant - neither zones nor dungeons - and since the gear there is all about sets and their bonuses the gear at level 10 can be the same set with the same bonuses as at endgame. The gear doesn't level with you so you do have to re-craft it or re-grind for it but the point is that if you're happy with a set and want to keep using it, you can. You can also go anywhere in any order, etc., etc.,

    You must have also noticed that THERE ARE STILL LEVElS and leveling in ESO. They're there in the traditional 1-50 sense, in the CP system after that and in the individual skill line, skill and morph leveling. It's got leveling up the yin yang in fact. And yet all these wonderful things you attribute to removing levels are still there right alongside all that leveling.

    Obviously you can have both, levels as an indicator of progress and scaled content that is never irrelevant together in one game.

    You are confusing the effects of level gated content with the levels themselves when in fact they are two different things.

    ESO also has as I'm sure you know, horizontal gearing with a lot of special purpose sets that are not necessarily better than other sets, just different and more useful in some cases than others.

    So there's that game with levels that has all the things you guys are always dreaming that a game without levels would have and it still has levels... go figure.

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,095
    edited September 23
    AAAMEOW said:
    I probably felt I'm more forced to do things.  In a level system I can play how ever I want.  In an objective system I'm forced to do things.  

    Taking away leveling but telling people you need to complete quest which aren't skipable...
    In most levelless systems quest would be skippable because you aren't forced to level.  

    The OP says you still need to complete objective to unlock skill and explore as normal.  I'm not sure how much work that is.  I probably have a misunderstanding on what he mean.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,945
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I probably felt I'm more forced to do things.  In a level system I can play how ever I want.  In an objective system I'm forced to do things.  

    Taking away leveling but telling people you need to complete quest which aren't skipable...
    In most levelless systems quest would be skippable because you aren't forced to level.  

    The OP says you still need to complete objective to unlock skill and explore as normal.  I'm not sure how much work that is.  I probably have a misunderstanding on what he mean.
    Example :

    To unlock frost storm on your Mage/Shaman/whatever class insert here

    You need to save a family of NPC from a burning house or forest. 

    There is your objective. Go into the game world and when you come across a similar scenario you save the family from the fire and unlock brand new spell your class uses. 

    Just like an achievement reward. 
    Totally free exploration style. Didn't say it had to be done in zone 10, could be done in the the zone on the other side of the planet or something. But it's an objective. Not a "Hey level grind to level 30 to unlock X, y, z". Again the whole game is endgame. 

    Amaranthar

    image

  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member RarePosts: 1,633
    edited September 23
    Whole game is endgame kind of seems like a mobile game where you do the same content over and over but the rewards are determined by tier difficulty. Essentially a lobby gear grind game then where your power is mostly determined by gear? Hrmm, or maybe Vermintide 2 is a better example of the type of game you're proposing?

    Edit cause I overlooked the part in your OP
    "All gear is meaningful and not level gated since there is no levels"

    That sounds like MH type progression.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,414
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I probably felt I'm more forced to do things.  In a level system I can play how ever I want.  In an objective system I'm forced to do things.  

    Taking away leveling but telling people you need to complete quest which aren't skipable...
    In most levelless systems quest would be skippable because you aren't forced to level.  

    The OP says you still need to complete objective to unlock skill and explore as normal.  I'm not sure how much work that is.  I probably have a misunderstanding on what he mean.
    Example :

    To unlock frost storm on your Mage/Shaman/whatever class insert here

    You need to save a family of NPC from a burning house or forest. 

    There is your objective. Go into the game world and when you come across a similar scenario you save the family from the fire and unlock brand new spell your class uses. 

    Just like an achievement reward. 
    Totally free exploration style. Didn't say it had to be done in zone 10, could be done in the the zone on the other side of the planet or something. But it's an objective. Not a "Hey level grind to level 30 to unlock X, y, z". Again the whole game is endgame. 

    I like the concept. 
    It could be more complicated, with multiple quests objectives, for more powerful skills or abilities. There's other possibilities too, like performing one of a set of objectives.
    Alternately, you could have objectives based on learning, from scrolls and tomes, or from scenes carved on dungeon or ruin walls...that sort of thing.

    I like it. I like it a lot. 

    Once upon a time....

  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,542
    I've always dreamed about a game that removed the typical WoW-style questing, but offered progression strictly through dungeons/raids/events/whatever. Perhaps through gear or some other mechanic.

    It really would be another form of leveling, but a much less tedious one IMO.
    You're talking about Destiny.
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  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,007
    edited September 23
    I would cherry pick quests and dungeons based on skill and gear progression while simultaneously ignoring most of the world and kill/collection quests. The hard part would be getting enough money for mounts and it would involve a huge amount of traveling at the start and all the running is even worse than doing boring kill/collection quests just to level.

    The carrot on a stick is what gets players started in mmorpg and what keeps them playing long after the game stopped being fun. Without that part most games ends up empty quickly.
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  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 1,968
    Here is better question , if you let WOW players max level at start , how will they play the game ?
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,179
    iixviiiix said:
    Here is better question , if you let WOW players max level at start , how will they play the game ?
    The same way they always do...stand around their faction major city calling everyone not in raid gear noob, "dueling" in Elwynn forest, or telling Chuck Norris jokes in Barrens chat. You know...because all of this is really fun stuff.
    iixviiiix

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,517
    I like the non blizzard leveling experience in older MMORPGs so I probably won't play it unless there is a number that can be improved somewhere.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

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