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How would you play a MMO like Classic WoW if it had no Character levels(1-60)?

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,946
    edited September 22
    A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  But a rose without its petals would not.

    Leveling is as integral to the Classic WoW experience as petals are to a rose.  Because you dislike levels, or petals, does not change that fact.


    Now imagine it another way. No character levels in Classic WoW. It would be one large game world with free exploration and all content as meaningful endgame progression. Instead of 3 Endgame Dungeons at max level 60,

    you now have ALL DUNGEONS IN THE GAME is endgame dungeons. All of them. All Quest are endgame quest. No quest is low level only anymore. No zone is low level only/high level only. 
    ALL ZONES ARE SAME LEVEL SINCE THERE ARE NO LEVELS.

    Something like that would play more like an Elder Scrolls Oblivion/Skyrim/Morrowind sort experience of going your own path doing the quest that interest you and the dungeons that interest you on your own Journey. There is no set path. All the same exact content from level grind would still be in the game but tailored to endgame content since there no need for level grind in a leveless MMO.
    Err, why would you bother doing any of said content? Just for the "fun of it?"

    What would you have to show for your efforts? 

    (If you say gear expect a Joe Gibbs back of the head slap.)

     >:) 


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,414
    edited September 22
    lahnmir said:
    You would still level through gear.
    You would still level through better skills.
    You would still level through proffessions.
    You just wouldn’t level theough actual levels anymore.

    Monster Hunter does this and it works perfectly fine, you just need to balance gear for it, put some more importance on resistances for instance.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Yes, exactly. But gear wouldn't have levels as in classic WoW, just be a little more beneficial. 
    The big deal in progression, I would think, would be the new skills and abilities, and then progressing them up for their abilities and chances of success. 

    Such a game does need more game play sets, just like any good Sandbox (which are very few). 
    - Crafting gear and materials gathering, etc.
    - economic game play, competition, businesses
    - quest stories should be expanded into "world content"
    - Underlying mysteries, plots, stories
    - exploration with more meaning
    - rare stuff with more value
    - Player housing, guild castles, etc.
    - more meaning to player "factions", not necessarily PvP oriented either. more along the lines of activities. So that Exploration League (or whatever it was called) could be a player thing as opposed to an NPC backdrop.

    (These are suggestions, the game design could pick a few or a lot, the quality of the game depends on how much the players enjoy playing what's in it.)

    etc., in other words, more of a world around the player with lots of depth. 

    Once upon a time....

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,489
    edited September 22
    It would be easy enough to just spread the benefits you would get from levels into quests. Example: doing certain quests reward you with stats/resistance/etc and completing a chain/ranks of rep allows you to get rarer gear. Maybe it would honestly work out better because you would be motivated to do everything and see everything just to maximize your character. The core problem is replayability, which is why levels exist imo. Doing all that junk is fine once, but doing it again just to play a new class is not. This is essentially why the essence system is so bad atm in retail wow. You could of course curb that by just making all stat unlocks account wide but then you're essentially creating god mode toons out the gate, which leads to more issues. Imo, the only way a system like that could properly work is if you could just play every class on a single character.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,036
    When I hit level 60 in WoW it pretty much ended the game for me....I tried a couple more alts but started to get bored of it....That's why classic WoW has no appeal to me at all and no levels would have even less appeal than that.
    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,054
    A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  But a rose without its petals would not.

    Leveling is as integral to the Classic WoW experience as petals are to a rose.  Because you dislike levels, or petals, does not change that fact.


    Now imagine it another way. No character levels in Classic WoW. It would be one large game world with free exploration and all content as meaningful endgame progression. Instead of 3 Endgame Dungeons at max level 60,

    you now have ALL DUNGEONS IN THE GAME is endgame dungeons. All of them. All Quest are endgame quest. No quest is low level only anymore. No zone is low level only/high level only. 
    ALL ZONES ARE SAME LEVEL SINCE THERE ARE NO LEVELS.

    Something like that would play more like an Elder Scrolls Oblivion/Skyrim/Morrowind sort experience of going your own path doing the quest that interest you and the dungeons that interest you on your own Journey. There is no set path. All the same exact content from level grind would still be in the game but tailored to endgame content since there no need for level grind in a leveless MMO.
    You are quite stubborn.   Classic WoW without levels would be nothing like Classic WoW.  You dislike levels, GREAT.  Go find a game that doesn't have them.   There are a few.

    You know what would be great!  Let's take a peanut butter and jelly sandwich... but how about we tweak it a bit! Why don't we modernize that and instead of peanut butter and jelly... let's use Fluff and Nutella.  Those are sooo much better and have tons of flavors without the need for nasty jelly!  Wouldn't that be a better PB&J ?



    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,054
    Xodic said:
    A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  But a rose without its petals would not.
    .......


    Did you play the lottery numbers that were on the back of that?
    No.  But I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • BroomyBroomy Member UncommonPosts: 487
    Just a hypothetical scenario.

    But let's say Blizzard released a new Classic WoW simulator game, but in this version, there is no Character levels, as in no 1-60 level grind.
    Everything in the game is endgame content and everything scaled around that. So no more low level zones being out leveled since your character is a max level type of stuff. Everything is the same tier as your character with some content being harder than others just like in the normal version. 

    The only difference is
    You still have to unlock your skills by completing objectives in the game and you still have to discover the world as normal.

    All gear is meaningful and not level gated since there is no levels. 

    How would such a game be played differently from the current iteration of the game?

    Just curious what you all think. 
    Your basically describing a SKILL Based MMO, and I would be fine with it.  The "progression" would lie in acquiring and advancing skills which would most likely require you to quest, do dungeons and use the skills until they improve.  Gear could also be based on the level of the skills you attain.  Basically, questing, exploration, dungeons etc would get you "points" that you can then use to build up your skills so instead of saying "I need to get ot lvl 50 in order to wield this" it would be "I need to get to this skill expertise (Novice, Adept, etc) in order to wield that".  I don't see a problem with it.  People would probably mess up their skill leveling totally though.   :D :D :D

    Current Games: WOW, EVE Online

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,906
    So no more low level zones being out leveled since your character is a max level type of stuff. Everything is the same tier as your character with some content being harder than others just like in the normal version. 

    The only difference is
    You still have to unlock your skills by completing objectives in the game and you still have to discover the world as normal.

    All gear is meaningful and not level gated since there is no levels. 


    The first part has been done in ESO, retail WOW (to some extent), GW2 and others. Some like it and some hate it.

    As to the "completing objectives" part, how is that not the same as leveling? Sounds to me like you're just replacing 1-60 with the same skill-up grind minus the numbers.

    As far as gear goes, you're underestimating how much players want to get better gear drops/rewards through playing. It's a powerful carrot that motivates players to play the game. Some very successful games games are all about that... like all ARPGs and all the looter shooters. 

    And what you're suggesting already exists in WOW retail's heirlooms system. Have you ever leveled a character in WOW fully decked out with heirlooms? If you have then you'd know that a lot of the fun is taken out of the game by never getting any gear upgrades as you level.
    Torval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,946
    edited September 22
    lahnmir said:
    You would still level through gear.
    You would still level through better skills.
    You would still level through proffessions.
    You just wouldn’t level theough actual levels anymore.

    Monster Hunter does this and it works perfectly fine, you just need to balance gear for it, put some more importance on resistances for instance.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I play EVE where all you say is true,  but they are just another form of gating mechanism like levels which goes against what the OP is seeking.

    While its said end game starts at the beginning in EVE that is not entirely true.

    Until players acquire the skills, gear, and professions which take a considerable amount of time (or money) they are blocked from certain "end game" content such as Incursions, Wormholes, "Level 5" missions, Capital Ship combat etc.

    So call it levels, skills or whatever, the OP wants to be able to access all areas in WOW without having to do any form of progression first.

    I think only ESO is even close and I suspect there is content which can't really be accessed or completed without achieving a certain "level" of progression first.

    Those living under the bridge can't fathom playing a game just for the "fun" of it.

     >:) 

    Torval

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,946
    edited September 22
    A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  But a rose without its petals would not.

    Leveling is as integral to the Classic WoW experience as petals are to a rose.  Because you dislike levels, or petals, does not change that fact.


    Now imagine it another way. No character levels in Classic WoW. It would be one large game world with free exploration and all content as meaningful endgame progression. Instead of 3 Endgame Dungeons at max level 60,

    you now have ALL DUNGEONS IN THE GAME is endgame dungeons. All of them. All Quest are endgame quest. No quest is low level only anymore. No zone is low level only/high level only. 
    ALL ZONES ARE SAME LEVEL SINCE THERE ARE NO LEVELS.

    Something like that would play more like an Elder Scrolls Oblivion/Skyrim/Morrowind sort experience of going your own path doing the quest that interest you and the dungeons that interest you on your own Journey. There is no set path. All the same exact content from level grind would still be in the game but tailored to endgame content since there no need for level grind in a leveless MMO.
    As one of the favorite cartoon villains of those living under the bridge Syndrome might say, 'if all content is meaningful, none of it actually is'

     >:) 


    TorvalIselin

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,906
    Kyleran said:


    I think only ESO is even close and I suspect there is content which can't really be accessed or completed without achieving a certain "level" of progression first.



    Close but no cigar. You still have levels in your character sheet - you're just bolstered to the level 50 / CP160 standard the whole game is at when you're below that.

    Dungeons still unlock based on your level the same way they do in WOW. Some content does not unlock until you're CP160 so that gating lasts for a good long while. Gear still has levels and needs replacing until you get your permanent stuff after CP160.

    Players still accept or don't accept each other in group content based on how many CPs you have and you are nearly useless in high end content if you're not at or near max CP.

    The overland zones may all be at the same CP160 level but there is progression and grind just like in any other MMORPG.
    Torval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Jamar870Jamar870 Member UncommonPosts: 362
    edited September 22
    I'm begining to think OP wants a WoW where ALL the mobs are the same level, same hp and hit for the same damage irrespected of wether there in Dead Mines or Black Rock Spire.
    Kyleran
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,945
    Jamar870 said:
    I'm begining to think OP wants a WoW where ALL the mobs are the same level, same hp and hit for the same damage irrespected of wether there in Dead Mines or Black Rock Spire.
    I did say the Whole game was endgame, the whole game. I didn't say make everybody level 60 and remove all non level 60 stuff in the game.

    I said a whole game world that has no level grind. It's built all around this concept. Same game world as classic WoW. Same Quest, same zones, same dungeons, etc, 
    But it's all tuned around one base character level. There are just different difficulty for the content in the world. Some dungeons and Raids requiring better gear and certain stats to complete just like Classic WoW currently works for endgame. 

    Instead of a few dungeons at endgame, all dungeons in the game are endgame dungeons that can reward better rewards and gear to use for harder dungeons and quest. 

    Create your own path. Everything is endgame. It's like an Elder Scrolls game but in MMO form. 

    Gain skills by doing task in the world. This could be something tied to the certain quest rewards and dungeon rewards. 

    image

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,054
    Jamar870 said:
    I'm begining to think OP wants a WoW where ALL the mobs are the same level, same hp and hit for the same damage irrespected of wether there in Dead Mines or Black Rock Spire.
    I did say the Whole game was endgame, the whole game. I didn't say make everybody level 60 and remove all non level 60 stuff in the game.

    I said a whole game world that has no level grind. It's built all around this concept. Same game world as classic WoW. Same Quest, same zones, same dungeons, etc, 
    But it's all tuned around one base character level. There are just different difficulty for the content in the world. Some dungeons and Raids requiring better gear and certain stats to complete just like Classic WoW currently works for endgame. 

    Instead of a few dungeons at endgame, all dungeons in the game are endgame dungeons that can reward better rewards and gear to use for harder dungeons and quest. 

    Create your own path. Everything is endgame. It's like an Elder Scrolls game but in MMO form. 

    Gain skills by doing task in the world. This could be something tied to the certain quest rewards and dungeon rewards. 
    Looks like most folks don't support the concept.  But lucky for you, there are different games for different people.  Hopefully, you find what you seek.  For me... I'm enjoying leveling my Shadow Priest, Druid and Shammy in WoW Classic.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,936
    bcbully said:
    It wouldn’t be played by me... There would not be enough to do outside of questing. 

    How so? Raids are still there. Every quest is still there. Every dungeon is still there. Every Battleground is still there. Everything you did before is still there and actually more to do now that everything would be endgame progression since there is no Character level zone gates. 
    Honesty, you just as well be speaking Chinese. You will not get most to even understand the concept let alone get most to agree.

    How gear works would have to be changed.  You may need "difficulty" rating for NPCs as well.  The biggest changes really is no area is gated. The game still plays the same for the most part outside of one shotting NPC some people need to feel powerful.
    Iselin
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,906
    edited September 22
    bcbully said:
    It wouldn’t be played by me... There would not be enough to do outside of questing. 

    How so? Raids are still there. Every quest is still there. Every dungeon is still there. Every Battleground is still there. Everything you did before is still there and actually more to do now that everything would be endgame progression since there is no Character level zone gates. 
    Honesty, you just as well be speaking Chinese. You will not get most to even understand the concept let alone get most to agree.

    How gear works would have to be changed.  You may need "difficulty" rating for NPCs as well.  The biggest changes really is no area is gated. The game still plays the same for the most part outside of one shotting NPC some people need to feel powerful.
    IDK man. When you think everyone but you is wrong the sane thing to do is take another look at what you're saying.

    Here's the key for this thread as well as 99.9% of all other "let's get rid of levels" threads:

    "You still have to unlock your skills by completing objectives in the game"

    What we get is that this is merely hiding level numbers and changing nothing.

    If you're going to propose a system that gets rid of the level numbers you need to also get rid of the things that levels do. If you don't, it's just a cosmetic change.

    TorvalKyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,936
    Iselin said:
    bcbully said:
    It wouldn’t be played by me... There would not be enough to do outside of questing. 

    How so? Raids are still there. Every quest is still there. Every dungeon is still there. Every Battleground is still there. Everything you did before is still there and actually more to do now that everything would be endgame progression since there is no Character level zone gates. 
    Honesty, you just as well be speaking Chinese. You will not get most to even understand the concept let alone get most to agree.

    How gear works would have to be changed.  You may need "difficulty" rating for NPCs as well.  The biggest changes really is no area is gated. The game still plays the same for the most part outside of one shotting NPC some people need to feel powerful.
    IDK man. When you think everyone but you is wrong the sane thing to do is take another look at what you're saying.

    Here's the key for this thread as well as 99.9% of all other "let's get rid of levels" threads:

    "You still have to unlock your skills by completing objectives in the game"

    What we get is that this is merely hiding level numbers and changing nothing.

    If you're going to propose a system that gets rid of the level numbers you need to also get rid of the things that levels do. If you don't, it's just a cosmetic change.

    If you say a motorcycle had 2 wheels and the complaints about it have to do with it having 4 wheels like a car... you assume they don't understand.

    Yes, RPGs are number games.  But claiming that because their is progression it is all the same doesn't mean it is because you say it is.  Gating content behind skill vs. numbers is a big change.  
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,662
    If you have to change how gear works, the trait trees, and how skills work then it's not even the same game. It's some other game with WoW assets.

    Levels aren't strictly important to me but progression is.
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,906
     Gating content behind skill...  
    You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,936
    Iselin said:
     Gating content behind skill...  
    You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
    Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step.  If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power.  It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,414
    edited September 22
    Iselin said:
     Gating content behind skill...  
    You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
    Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step.  If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power.  It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
    There's other options. 
    Gating content behind skills is just another way of creating the levels system that locks you out of all of the world content except for you're skill range (as opposed to level range). 

    What you'd want, in order to keep the world open, is MOBs that are tougher by a combination of HPs, their own skills, and stats (as they affect things like damage and die rolls). Also magical powers/attacks. 
    This makes some MOBs and their dungeons/locations tougher, but still allows players of all progression to go try them out. 
    Kyleran

    Once upon a time....

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,936
    Iselin said:
     Gating content behind skill...  
    You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
    Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step.  If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power.  It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
    There's other options. 
    Gating content behind skills is just another way of creating the levels system that locks you out of all of the world content except for you're skill range (as opposed to level range). 

    What you'd want, in order to keep the world open, is MOBs that are tougher by a combination of HPs, their own skills, and stats (as they affect things like damage and die rolls). Also magical powers/attacks. 
    This makes some MOBs and their dungeons/locations tougher, but still allows players of all progression to go try them out. 
    Some people are already locked out by skill, ability to tolerate tedium/boredom, social skills. But you are right NPC tactics and tendencies are part of difficulty.  NPCs that use teamwork or just NPCs with good powers, stats and script.
  • HazenXIIIHazenXIII Member UncommonPosts: 41
    Kyleran said:
    So, an utterly pointless MMO? No thanks.

    Those who live under the bridge thrive on progression, and know gear isn't enough.
    SWG originally didn't have levels, and is still to this day one of the most progression-driven MMOs I've ever played with over 32 different professions (not counting Jedi) to master or mix and match. "Levels" are just a visual aid to help convey progression, not the mechanism to create progression.
    Hatefull
  • ThaneThane Member RarePosts: 3,422
    Just a hypothetical scenario.

    But let's say Blizzard released a new Classic WoW simulator game, but in this version, there is no Character levels, as in no 1-60 level grind.
    Everything in the game is endgame content and everything scaled around that. So no more low level zones being out leveled since your character is a max level type of stuff. Everything is the same tier as your character with some content being harder than others just like in the normal version. 

    The only difference is
    You still have to unlock your skills by completing objectives in the game and you still have to discover the world as normal.

    All gear is meaningful and not level gated since there is no levels. 

    How would such a game be played differently from the current iteration of the game?

    Just curious what you all think. 
    i'd guess i'd play it like ESO after reaching the level cap ;)

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,414
    edited September 22
    Iselin said:
     Gating content behind skill...  
    You're going to have to explain that one once you point out where in this thread anyone is talking about gating content behind skill.
    Again. If you understand the concept then it's the next logical step.  If you don't have artificial power done by levels you will need another way to differentiate NPCs power.  It doesn't have to happen but it is the logic step.
    There's other options. 
    Gating content behind skills is just another way of creating the levels system that locks you out of all of the world content except for you're skill range (as opposed to level range). 

    What you'd want, in order to keep the world open, is MOBs that are tougher by a combination of HPs, their own skills, and stats (as they affect things like damage and die rolls). Also magical powers/attacks. 
    This makes some MOBs and their dungeons/locations tougher, but still allows players of all progression to go try them out. 
    Some people are already locked out by skill, ability to tolerate tedium/boredom, social skills. But you are right NPC tactics and tendencies are part of difficulty.  NPCs that use teamwork or just NPCs with good powers, stats and script.
    Some day, some game will develop an AI simulation (weighted randomized choices based on battle situations), and that will be yet another level to work with. 

    Tedium and boredom, to me, can't be better applied than the typical levelling system in MMO's. Predictable, expected, same for all rinse and repeat. You know, those things that make for an exciting time. lol

    Once upon a time....

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