How does DSS square up with the Kickstarter promise of no world map?

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

From the Kickstarter, one of the highlights was that there would be no world map and players would have to discover everything:

• No World or Mini-Map | Map makers and cartographers have a place in CoE, helping players navigate their world.

So now now there are detailed (If poor quality) maps of every part of the world. Sure it may not show every cave, but all major landmarks, towns, names, roads... everything is there. Heck it even shows the content of what’s there down to the professions of the inhabitants and the crops/resources you can find there.

Seems like a major change of direction that I really haven’t heard anyone discuss...

goldboyy45 · September 2019

Great point Slap, I've got no answers for you...they said one thing during KS and did something different.

Albatroes · September 2019

Depends on if they allow addons or not (even if they dont, someone will find a way to overlay). In my opinion, it would be best to allowing addons so they can cut development time/cost on say how detailed the UI will be/map details/etc. After all, it worked out for ESO. ESO's in game info was a hot mess when it first released then progressively got better.

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

goldboyy45 said:

Great point Slap, I've got no answers for you...they said one thing during KS and did something different.

I mean... not only do they have world maps, but zoom maps of Dutchies and then even Counties. And those show all the features, landmarks, rivers and roads... And even explicitly show what people live where and what professions they have.

What the heck?

Wizardry · September 2019

I have no problem at all with maps showing towns or landmarks but when games start putting magical markers on the map telling you where to go,that is where i draw the line on stupidity.That is why i hate Themepark rpg so much,all they do is hand hold you through every phase of the game,it is like the parent taking their 8 year old through the Themepark.

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

Wizardry said:

I have no problem at all with maps showing towns or landmarks but when games start putting magical markers on the map telling you where to go,that is where i draw the line on stupidity.That is why i hate Themepark rpg so much,all they do is hand hold you through every phase of the game,it is like the parent taking their 8 year old through the Themepark.

Not arguing about whether having detailed maps available before the game starts is a good or bad thing. Simply pointing out the dramatic difference from what was promised is Kickstarter and that as far as I can see this change was not even discussed...

Heck, they even now are selling "detailed maps of your starting county" for $4 in their cash shop...

TiamatRoar · September 2019

It's a thing crowdfunded games do, really. Promise anything and everything that sounds amazing even when they're mutually exclusive with each other and other things.

Kyleran · September 2019

Seems to be some of the backers are more concerned over the early introduction of gliders unbalancing things.

While the maps do provide a frame of reference, in game there's no built in map which shows the player where in the world they are on it so won't be as useful as one might think.

I recently played an old school version of DAOC which had a small scale map with high level markers, but players didn't appear on it so wasn't terribly helpful.

What the DAOC shard did have was slash commands which displayed the x,y,z coordinates of the player on the current map grid which I often used to navigate having them bound on my keyboard.

No idea if COE will have similar or not, as no one has actually been allowed into the game, in whatever state it currently exists.

Also, there is no compass (well there is for development, but they plan to turn it off) so players will have to pull one out to use.

A player traveling on a moonless night will have to carry a torch and compass in hand, meaning they'll be vulnerable to attack with no weapon at the ready.

Those living under the bridge don't consider struggling to find one's bearings in the world as interesting game play, and will take a good in game map with personal and group locators (but not quest markers) any day.

AnOldFart · September 2019

Ok I have two points here.

1) there is supposed to be no mini map or world map available (not sure how this will work out in game)

2) let's be honest, this game has changed drastically from its early days and Kickstarter. Given the choice now, if I wasn't already invested into it, I would not even look at it.

My whole wish for this game was to be able to explore the unknown, to be the first to find that mysterious fountain spewing out blood (dramatic license there). To have the choice to find a group of people, head out into a vast world, explore, find some land, settle there and take it...

To have created a unique empty world (no settlements or civilisation) would have been alot easy than what they did develop

bcbully · September 2019

This would be no different than old school games which included a map...

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

bcbully said:

This would be no different than old school games which included a map...

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Except the old school games did not promise “no map” did they? The map was actually advertised and I loved my cloth UO ones!

Torrsk · September 2019

I always took that as meaning in game. Not something out of game.

Honestly there are so many better options around if you wanted to attack them with. Yet you go with this? You are losing your touch.

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

Torrsk said:

I always took that as meaning in game. Not something out of game.

Honestly there are so many better options around if you wanted to attack them with. Yet you go with this? You are losing your touch.

It's not attacking. It is comparing what was said with what happened. They said No World Map. They delivered World Maps, Dutchy Maps, County Maps. You can even BUY a County Map in their Cash Shop.

Its fine to think this is OK.

I simply hold folks accountable for doing what they say they will do. Or explaining why they can't. It's not about "attacking" them. Believe me, in the past 2 weeks I have had 2 different people (1 Count and 1 Duke) come to me with screenshots and private conversations that would utterly embarrass SBS. That is not my role. I told both of those folks that if they want to go public that is for THEM to do.

Dleatherus · September 2019

hrmmm - my own opinion is that it is fine

it was stated that there would be no in-game world map or mini map

it was stated, not in the kickstarter but in the IRC chats at that time, that there would be 'crude' maps for domain and settlement selection and for KoE (kingdoms of elyria - a prelaunch web based territory conquest game

it was also stated that biome, tribe percentages, whether resources such as minerals were present (but not specifically where or in what amount or whether it was iron ore, salt or some other mineral) would be reflected on the map

i don't recall them stating at that time that rivers, mountains and professions would be

given that for map voting a fairly detailed google earth style map for each server was made available, the fantasy map style doesn't bother me personally, and was necessary to be able to make at least a somewhat educated decision as to where to place

detailed county maps etc were part of some of the pledge packages during kickstarter so i have no issue with that either

i don't have a problem publicly calling out the studio over bullshit or lies or inexplicable changes to the concept/design of the game that have impacting results that deviate substantially from the original - for me this just doesn't happen to be one of them

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

Dleatherus said:

hrmmm - my own opinion is that it is fine

it was stated that there would be no in-game world map or mini map

it was stated, not in the kickstarter but in the IRC chats at that time, that there would be 'crude' maps for domain and settlement selection and for KoE (kingdoms of elyria - a prelaunch web based territory conquest game

it was also stated that biome, tribe percentages, whether resources such as minerals were present (but not specifically where or in what amount or whether it was iron ore, salt or some other mineral) would be reflected on the map

i don't recall them stating at that time that rivers, mountains and professions would be

given that for map voting a fairly detailed google earth style map for each server was made available, the fantasy map style doesn't bother me personally, and was necessary to be able to make at least a somewhat educated decision as to where to place

detailed county maps etc were part of some of the pledge packages during kickstarter so i have no issue with that either

i don't have a problem publicly calling out the studio over bullshit or lies or inexplicable changes to the concept/design of the game that have impacting results that deviate substantially from the original - for me this just doesn't happen to be one of them

And that is a fair opinion to have. I disagree, because all your info came from IRC and not the actual Kickstarter so I think your expectations may not match what others who did not join the IRC chat had/have. But from your perspective, I can understand.

bcbully · September 2019

Slapshot1188 said:

Dleatherus said:

hrmmm - my own opinion is that it is fine

it was stated that there would be no in-game world map or mini map

it was stated, not in the kickstarter but in the IRC chats at that time, that there would be 'crude' maps for domain and settlement selection and for KoE (kingdoms of elyria - a prelaunch web based territory conquest game

it was also stated that biome, tribe percentages, whether resources such as minerals were present (but not specifically where or in what amount or whether it was iron ore, salt or some other mineral) would be reflected on the map

i don't recall them stating at that time that rivers, mountains and professions would be

given that for map voting a fairly detailed google earth style map for each server was made available, the fantasy map style doesn't bother me personally, and was necessary to be able to make at least a somewhat educated decision as to where to place

detailed county maps etc were part of some of the pledge packages during kickstarter so i have no issue with that either

i don't have a problem publicly calling out the studio over bullshit or lies or inexplicable changes to the concept/design of the game that have impacting results that deviate substantially from the original - for me this just doesn't happen to be one of them

And that is a fair opinion to have. I disagree, because all your info came from IRC and not the actual Kickstarter so I think your expectations may not match what others who did not join the IRC chat had/have. But from your perspective, I can understand.

Slap when I first saw your criticisms of CoE, I really believe they were honest and came from the right place. This here is ridiculous. This is not a good look...

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

bcbully said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Dleatherus said:

hrmmm - my own opinion is that it is fine

it was stated that there would be no in-game world map or mini map

it was stated, not in the kickstarter but in the IRC chats at that time, that there would be 'crude' maps for domain and settlement selection and for KoE (kingdoms of elyria - a prelaunch web based territory conquest game

it was also stated that biome, tribe percentages, whether resources such as minerals were present (but not specifically where or in what amount or whether it was iron ore, salt or some other mineral) would be reflected on the map

i don't recall them stating at that time that rivers, mountains and professions would be

given that for map voting a fairly detailed google earth style map for each server was made available, the fantasy map style doesn't bother me personally, and was necessary to be able to make at least a somewhat educated decision as to where to place

detailed county maps etc were part of some of the pledge packages during kickstarter so i have no issue with that either

i don't have a problem publicly calling out the studio over bullshit or lies or inexplicable changes to the concept/design of the game that have impacting results that deviate substantially from the original - for me this just doesn't happen to be one of them

And that is a fair opinion to have. I disagree, because all your info came from IRC and not the actual Kickstarter so I think your expectations may not match what others who did not join the IRC chat had/have. But from your perspective, I can understand.

Slap when I first saw your criticisms of CoE, I really believe they were honest and came from the right place. This here is ridiculous. This is not a good look...

Sure. Just look at your reactions to every post I made for the past few months. Seems legit (not).

But honestly, could not care less. Someone has to make up for Capt LOL being gone.
The beauty of these forums is that you can hit the button and never see another one of my posts. Feel free to do so although I will miss the free WTFs.

goldboyy45 · September 2019

Dleatherus said:

hrmmm - my own opinion is that it is fine

it was stated that there would be no in-game world map or mini map

it was stated, not in the kickstarter but in the IRC chats at that time, that there would be 'crude' maps for domain and settlement selection and for KoE (kingdoms of elyria - a prelaunch web based territory conquest game

it was also stated that biome, tribe percentages, whether resources such as minerals were present (but not specifically where or in what amount or whether it was iron ore, salt or some other mineral) would be reflected on the map

i don't recall them stating at that time that rivers, mountains and professions would be

given that for map voting a fairly detailed google earth style map for each server was made available, the fantasy map style doesn't bother me personally, and was necessary to be able to make at least a somewhat educated decision as to where to place

detailed county maps etc were part of some of the pledge packages during kickstarter so i have no issue with that either

i don't have a problem publicly calling out the studio over bullshit or lies or inexplicable changes to the concept/design of the game that have impacting results that deviate substantially from the original - for me this just doesn't happen to be one of them

Since you are here I wanted to hear your thoughts on Pre-Elyria? Caspian stated in the last state of Elyria write-up that Pre-Elyria "should" take until the end of summer 2019 to be completed. Summer 2019 in NA has come to an end with Caspian being silent/absent...thoughts?

Dleatherus · September 2019

goldboyy45 said:

Since you are here I wanted to hear your thoughts on Pre-Elyria? Caspian stated in the last state of Elyria write-up that Pre-Elyria "should" take until the end of summer 2019 to be completed. Summer 2019 in NA has come to an end with Caspian being silent/absent...thoughts?

hrmmm - the public livestream i put out a month or two ago should leave no doubt as to my opinion regarding what I believe was the intentional setting of fake dates and misleading of the CoE community.

i don't have the time or inclination to find the post i made in late 2016 or early 2017 publicly questioning caspian in regards to the timeline he put out before the 'cone of certainty' timeline one

I personally believe the game isn't vaporware and that the devs are working earnestly on the project

However when i see things like caspian's post today that they need 2 weeks to take a break and get caught up with things like settlement name approvals and sorting the map out, and then try to imagine what a potential clusterfuck delay Design Experiences are going to be (think it's tough deciding on whether a name is acceptable or not, wait until they see the tattoos, hairstyles, food and drink recipes, armor and palace designs rofl) it has me resigned to my own belief that EVERYTHING is delayed, period, not just Pre-Elyria (which in my opinion is already significantly delayed, therefore if it came out tomorrow, it wouldn't change the fact of existing significant delay)

and when i say delayed, i mean substantially, not just a few days or weeks or even months, i'm talking about year(s)

i'm an optimist, and personally i don't see the game, if it does make it to launch, coming out within 24-30 months at the earliest end of my estimates (something i'd like the studio to prove me wrong on and release prior to that)

again on a personal note, having been involved in prelaunch communities for 15 years and experienced delays etc, i'm somewhat accepting of them because shit happens

i'm not accepting of being, in my opinion, intentionally lied to and/or misled (again see livestream for my documented take on this - NOT plugging the livestream, just am tired of retyping my opinion on it when it can be viewed just as easily)

i support the project and the studio, but not some of the behavior, which moving forward i hope to see change for the better - the view of a self-confessed optimist

AnOldFart · September 2019

Nice to see you back Dleatherus

Rheanon · October 2019

I suppose the generation of world maps was necessary for domain selection. I think it was a good thing. One thing is to see the world map kingdoms, duchies, settlements etc. for the purpose of selecting a settlement, and another when your character is standing in some county and has to figure out which way to go if initially there are no maps ingame. I've been following this game sporadically over the past couple of years. Some issues have been brought up in this post which are quite disturbing. I'll just keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best. It does sound like an awesome game idea. I am hoping it comes to fruition before this rl is over

After reading this thread, I guess I am a concerned backer at this point.

OrangeBoy · October 2019

After seeing the demo, I know for a fact a lot of people are sweating because they have to adopt the "I'm in this too deep" mindset.

Gl all

Wizardry · October 2019

As mentioned in the OP,i also mentioned the same MANY years ago,i would rather see a blank slate and a Cartographer skill.
A RPG should be about investing in your player,you LEARN skills,you LEARN the world and the npc's within.
This goes further into the entire design,LEARN your character within combat,quit these lame hate meters and dps loggers/addons.These add ons are also used in the rpg's,heck open up the map and EVERYTHING is already on there thanks to POI markers.Like seriously gaming in rpg's has become a hangout of VERY lazy people that just want everything simplified as if mmorpg's have been too difficult to play or something?

Here lies the same problem all these modern mmorpg's have,LAZY ,CHEAP developers.We don't want housing because it will eat into our server space and our profits,we don't want many skills like a Cartographer it takes more coding,more effort.
Instead we just want to sell you a hand holding Themepark with very little that makes sense and a half assed effort.

I am not giving one single developer a pass until they EARN it.

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How does DSS square up with the Kickstarter promise of no world map?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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How does DSS square up with the Kickstarter promise of no world map?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV