How would you play a MMO like Classic WoW if it had no Character levels(1-60)?

MMOExposed · September 2019

Just a hypothetical scenario.

But let's say Blizzard released a new Classic WoW simulator game, but in this version, there is no Character levels, as in no 1-60 level grind.
Everything in the game is endgame content and everything scaled around that. So no more low level zones being out leveled since your character is a max level type of stuff. Everything is the same tier as your character with some content being harder than others just like in the normal version.

The only difference is
You still have to unlock your skills by completing objectives in the game and you still have to discover the world as normal.

All gear is meaningful and not level gated since there is no levels.

How would such a game be played differently from the current iteration of the game?

Just curious what you all think.

bcbully · September 2019

It wouldn’t be played by me... There would not be enough to do outside of questing.

MMOExposed · September 2019

bcbully said:

It wouldn’t be played by me... There would not be enough to do outside of questing.

How so? Raids are still there. Every quest is still there. Every dungeon is still there. Every Battleground is still there. Everything you did before is still there and actually more to do now that everything would be endgame progression since there is no Character level zone gates.

Kyleran · September 2019

So, an utterly pointless MMO? No thanks.

Those who live under the bridge thrive on progression, and know gear isn't enough.

Utinni · September 2019

Sounds like OP hasn't hit 60 yet.

Quizzical · September 2019

You're asking if people would still play a theme park if it removed nearly all of its content?

MMOExposed · September 2019

Quizzical said:

You're asking if people would still play a theme park if it removed nearly all of its content?

I am trying to understand this logic. How is removing Character levels synonymous with removing all the content?
Explain that to me.

Wizardry · September 2019

No hypo needed,they already did that straight to 90 if you wanted.So Blizzard has already in essence already considered their game pre 90 as a waste of time.Nobody forced Blizzard to do it,maybe some asked but when you can ruin the integrity of your game that easily,it says a lot about the developer.

You could obviously still play Wow with no levels ,as long as they can see those hand holding yellow markers over npc heads,they will know what to do.

However the big problem is what Blizzard and Wow rely on >>GEAR.

Since gear is locked behind levels in every mmorpg,you would be stuck playing in level 1 gear and Wow would be unplayable.On the flip side,FFXI a game design done properly,you could use level 1 gear and still do anything up to 75 when the game deign changed to be like Wow...sigh.

The reason is Wow relies on gear,FFXI relies on skills and abilities,there is BIG difference in design philosophies.Blizzard thinks the gear should be more important than the player,is there a single person on this planet that agrees with Blizzard's design?Well apparently they must or why are they playing Wow?

MMOExposed · September 2019

Wizardry said:

No hypo needed,they already did that straight to 90 if you wanted.So Blizzard has already in essence already considered their game pre 90 as a waste of time.Nobody forced Blizzard to do it,maybe some asked but when you can ruin the integrity of your game that easily,it says a lot about the developer.
You could obviously still play Wow with no levels ,as long as they can see those hand holding yellow markers over npc heads,they will know what to do.

However the big problem is what Blizzard and Wow rely on >>GEAR.

Since gear is locked behind levels in every mmorpg,you would be stuck playing in level 1 gear and Wow would be unplayable.On the flip side,FFXI a game design done properly,you could use level 1 gear and still do anything up to 75 when the game deign changed to be like Wow...sigh.

The reason is Wow relies on gear,FFXI relies on skills and abilities,there is BIG difference in design philosophies.Blizzard thinks the gear should be more important than the player,is there a single person on this planet that agrees with Blizzard's design?Well apparently they must or why are they playing Wow?

Skipping 1-89 and making all that useless content isn't the same as making the game all one level.

In vanilla Wow you have low level zones and dungeons that you would never touch again as a max level 60.

In the OP scenario there is no lower level anything. Everything is max level content. From Scarlet to AQ, and all that other stuff is all max level content if there are no levels on characters. That means all that 1-59 content is now what would been level 60 stuff if a class wow sense. No more outleveling content. No level gated stuff. Explore the world from day one doing your own journey and discovery.

Azoth · September 2019

Where would be the character progression ? Gear only ?

cheeba · September 2019

bcbully said:

It wouldn’t be played by me... There would not be enough to do outside of questing.

How so? It would be the exact same game. Minus the levels. LMAO

Kyleran said:

So, an utterly pointless MMO? No thanks.

Those who live under the bridge thrive on progression, and know gear isn't enough.

So like every other MMO out there. There is no point to any MMO except the experience. There is no winners or losers. Think we have been here today already?

Quizzical said:

You're asking if people would still play a theme park if it removed nearly all of its content?

Help me here as your views I will still entertain.

cheeba · September 2019

Quizzical said:

You're asking if people would still play a theme park if it removed nearly all of its content?

The game hes describing doesn't sound very theme park to me. Sounds kinda sandbox with quests and raids and stuff..

Kyleran · September 2019

Azoth said:

Where would be the character progression ? Gear only ?

The OP thinks there would be enough of a game just to wander around and explore things.

He fails to realize for many (most?) the exploration is secondary to the main pillar of RPGs, measurable progression hence why level games have always been pretty popular.

I suspect the OP grew up on an early diet of arcade style games such as Mario and the like where character progression wasn't a factor.

Phry · September 2019

They would have to do something along the lines of SWG, after all SWG did not have any levels either. Would mean pretty much re-writing the game but it would be interesting to see how that went.

cheeba · September 2019

Removing levels doesn't mean removing progression. Don't have to remove the skill system.

You have Eve Online as an example. No levels and has skills. WURM Online, Guild Wars 1, SWG

Single player examples The Long Dark, KOTOR, Monster Hunter, Dark Souls.

You have the tabletop games like Dungeon World, Star Wars RPG, some of the horror ones.

MMOExposed · September 2019

Kyleran said:

Azoth said:

Where would be the character progression ? Gear only ?

The OP thinks there would be enough of a game just to wander around and explore things.

He fails to realize for many (most?) the exploration is secondary to the main pillar of RPGs, measurable progression hence why level games have always been pretty popular.

I suspect the OP grew up on an early diet of arcade style games such as Mario and the like where character progression wasn't a factor.

So what did people do all that time when they were level 60, 70, 80, etc?

Every time there was a max level there still was progression. That's not exclusive to level grind. So why would the game have no content just because it has no level grind. It actually would have the same number of content but will have more stuff to do that has meaningful content. All stuff you do will progress your character unlike a low level content in a level based mmo

Grunty · September 2019

cheeba said:

Removing levels doesn't mean removing progression. Don't have to remove the skill system.

You have Eve Online as an example. No levels and has skills. WURM Online, Guild Wars 1, SWG

Single player examples The Long Dark, KOTOR, Monster Hunter, Dark Souls.

You have the tabletop games like Dungeon World, Star Wars RPG, some of the horror ones.

You forgot Chutes and Ladders.

Quizzical · September 2019

MMOExposed said:

Quizzical said:

You're asking if people would still play a theme park if it removed nearly all of its content?

I am trying to understand this logic. How is removing Character levels synonymous with removing all the content?
Explain that to me.

Nearly all of the content in WoW is intended for lower levels, with only a tiny sliver at endgame. That's true for just about every other theme park with an endgame, too. Often, much of what there is to do at endgame is just stupid grinding of the sort that I wouldn't even consider real content. If you take out the bulk of a game's content and just leave some awful endgame, then no, that's not interesting.

If you have a ton of content but call it all endgame, that's not traditionally how theme park MMORPGs work. You'd have to give an explanation of what you mean if that's what you have in mind.

cheyane · September 2019

You know how every zone adjusts to you thing forgotten what that mechanic is called, isn't that similar to what you're suggesting?

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But a rose without its petals would not.

Leveling is as integral to the Classic WoW experience as petals are to a rose. Because you dislike levels, or petals, does not change that fact.

MMOExposed · September 2019

Quizzical said:

MMOExposed said:

Quizzical said:

You're asking if people would still play a theme park if it removed nearly all of its content?

I am trying to understand this logic. How is removing Character levels synonymous with removing all the content?
Explain that to me.

Nearly all of the content in WoW is intended for lower levels, with only a tiny sliver at endgame. That's true for just about every other theme park with an endgame, too. Often, much of what there is to do at endgame is just stupid grinding of the sort that I wouldn't even consider real content. If you take out the bulk of a game's content and just leave some awful endgame, then no, that's not interesting.

If you have a ton of content but call it all endgame, that's not traditionally how theme park MMORPGs work. You'd have to give an explanation of what you mean if that's what you have in mind.

but in the scenario there is no lower level content. all the dungeons, all the quest, all the raids, all the everything is same level, just different difficulty. Level is a grind just as endgame is a grind. only difference is level stuff in a traditional WoW can be outleveled and become useless content never to be touched again. In this version since there is no character levels, all content can never be outleveled. So all of it can contribute to meaningful progression no matter what path you take.

Instead of 2 or 3 endgame dungeons, all the dungeons in the game is endgame content since they not level content anymore.All of it.

Again removing Character levels is NOT removing content. I still dont get the logic in that argument since all the same content is still there.

MMOExposed · September 2019

Slapshot1188 said:

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But a rose without its petals would not.

Leveling is as integral to the Classic WoW experience as petals are to a rose. Because you dislike levels, or petals, does not change that fact.

Now imagine it another way. No character levels in Classic WoW. It would be one large game world with free exploration and all content as meaningful endgame progression. Instead of 3 Endgame Dungeons at max level 60,

you now have ALL DUNGEONS IN THE GAME is endgame dungeons. All of them. All Quest are endgame quest. No quest is low level only anymore. No zone is low level only/high level only.
ALL ZONES ARE SAME LEVEL SINCE THERE ARE NO LEVELS.

Something like that would play more like an Elder Scrolls Oblivion/Skyrim/Morrowind sort experience of going your own path doing the quest that interest you and the dungeons that interest you on your own Journey. There is no set path. All the same exact content from level grind would still be in the game but tailored to endgame content since there no need for level grind in a leveless MMO.

lahnmir · September 2019

You would still level through gear.
You would still level through better skills.
You would still level through proffessions.
You just wouldn’t level theough actual levels anymore.

Monster Hunter does this and it works perfectly fine, you just need to balance gear for it, put some more importance on resistances for instance.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Kyleran · September 2019

MMOExposed said:

Slapshot1188 said:

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But a rose without its petals would not.

Leveling is as integral to the Classic WoW experience as petals are to a rose. Because you dislike levels, or petals, does not change that fact.

Now imagine it another way. No character levels in Classic WoW. It would be one large game world with free exploration and all content as meaningful endgame progression. Instead of 3 Endgame Dungeons at max level 60,

you now have ALL DUNGEONS IN THE GAME is endgame dungeons. All of them. All Quest are endgame quest. No quest is low level only anymore. No zone is low level only/high level only.
ALL ZONES ARE SAME LEVEL SINCE THERE ARE NO LEVELS.

Something like that would play more like an Elder Scrolls Oblivion/Skyrim/Morrowind sort experience of going your own path doing the quest that interest you and the dungeons that interest you on your own Journey. There is no set path. All the same exact content from level grind would still be in the game but tailored to endgame content since there no need for level grind in a leveless MMO.

Err, why would you bother doing any of said content? Just for the "fun of it?"

What would you have to show for your efforts?

(If you say gear expect a Joe Gibbs back of the head slap.)

Amaranthar · September 2019

lahnmir said:

You would still level through gear.
You would still level through better skills.
You would still level through proffessions.
You just wouldn’t level theough actual levels anymore.

Monster Hunter does this and it works perfectly fine, you just need to balance gear for it, put some more importance on resistances for instance.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Yes, exactly. But gear wouldn't have levels as in classic WoW, just be a little more beneficial.
The big deal in progression, I would think, would be the new skills and abilities, and then progressing them up for their abilities and chances of success.

Such a game does need more game play sets, just like any good Sandbox (which are very few).
- Crafting gear and materials gathering, etc.
- economic game play, competition, businesses
- quest stories should be expanded into "world content"
- Underlying mysteries, plots, stories
- exploration with more meaning
- rare stuff with more value
- Player housing, guild castles, etc.
- more meaning to player "factions", not necessarily PvP oriented either. more along the lines of activities. So that Exploration League (or whatever it was called) could be a player thing as opposed to an NPC backdrop.

(These are suggestions, the game design could pick a few or a lot, the quality of the game depends on how much the players enjoy playing what's in it.)

etc., in other words, more of a world around the player with lots of depth.

Albatroes · September 2019

It would be easy enough to just spread the benefits you would get from levels into quests. Example: doing certain quests reward you with stats/resistance/etc and completing a chain/ranks of rep allows you to get rarer gear. Maybe it would honestly work out better because you would be motivated to do everything and see everything just to maximize your character. The core problem is replayability, which is why levels exist imo. Doing all that junk is fine once, but doing it again just to play a new class is not. This is essentially why the essence system is so bad atm in retail wow. You could of course curb that by just making all stat unlocks account wide but then you're essentially creating god mode toons out the gate, which leads to more issues. Imo, the only way a system like that could properly work is if you could just play every class on a single character.

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How would you play a MMO like Classic WoW if it had no Character levels(1-60)?

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How would you play a MMO like Classic WoW if it had no Character levels(1-60)?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV