"Designed to be fun on a gamepad"

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

Caspian ☁Today at 1:43 PM

Chronicles of Elyria is still being designed to be fun on a game pad. So all evolutions of the gameplay are going toward making it feel responsive, fun, and skill-based, without requiring a ton of different keyboard keys or buttons.

How does this mesh with the high RP concept they are pushing where they promote forum posts as game content? Are these same RPers really going to want Gamepad controls? Can they really build a game that can fully be played with a gamepad and yet promote the full RP that is promised? I do not see how a gamepad can be used in a real RP environment. Every conversation will just be clicking from a small selection of predetermined sentences?

Thoughts?

Tiller · September 2019

What the hell are they doing to this game? This is like the most open bait and switch I have seen in a long time; yet the fans still think it's glorious. Either they are delusional, or trying to convince themselves this is OK. Honestly I think this company is on the verge of bankruptcy, and basically it's down to 2 guys with no coding or art skills building this game hoping to salvage it.

Gutlard · September 2019

I'm sure there are some LARP'ers out there that have created a Flail from an actual controller/chord and duct tape.... So RP'ing is def possible.

Gut Out!

Mendel · September 2019

Can anyone confirm when this "game pad" became part of the COE concept? I don't remember seeing that before today, although it may be something I missed.

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

I think he mentioned it awhile back.

ChildoftheShadows · September 2019

I don’t see how controllers interfere with RP.

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

ChildoftheShadows said:

I don’t see how controllers interfere with RP.

RP usually involves communication. Since there is no voice server for the game, it will primarily be through text or emotes. Do you think a gamepad lends itself to good communication?

some-clueless-guy · September 2019

I have to admit I follow what's going on with this game just for the laughs, but this time around, this new piece of info seems to me a perfectly plausible decision, and that comes from someone who has not owned a gamepad since the times of the snes. Simple controls and "couch-gaming" friendly is not at odds with roleplaying: as long as they give the players the tools to make their stories, the freedom to sandbox around as much as they like, the roleplay will be there; heck people can RP even in WoW which is to me quite hilarious, but I'm digressing.

That being said, we all agree that this is all "wouldn't it be cool if..." kind of talk, right? This game is not going to launch, so they could be planning for a next generation VR suit integration, wouldn't make a difference anyway.

Iselin · September 2019

Slapshot1188 said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

I don’t see how controllers interfere with RP.

RP usually involves communication. Since there is no voice server for the game, it will primarily be through text or emotes. Do you think a gamepad lends itself to good communication?

Honestly? When I play with a mouse I let go of the mouse to type in chat with both hands. I don't really see much difference with a gamepad replacing the mouse.

And damn you for putting me in a position to defend this shit show even in a trivial way

Albatroes · September 2019

Hell, since the game doesn't exist, they should say that the game will be full VR compatible.

Lokero · September 2019

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

I don’t see how controllers interfere with RP.

RP usually involves communication. Since there is no voice server for the game, it will primarily be through text or emotes. Do you think a gamepad lends itself to good communication?

Honestly? When I play with a mouse I let go of the mouse to type in chat with both hands. I don't really see much difference with a gamepad replacing the mouse.

And damn you for putting me in a position to defend this shit show even in a trivial way

That's true. I doubt anyone types with their hand on the mouse, unless they are finger-peckers anyway.

Even though I agree, I will say that it is slightly more awkward to pick up and set down a controller constantly.

The real issue has nothing to do with communication. The problem is that when games design around a controller, they tend to be incredibly simple and shallow gameplay systems.

You can only do so much on a controller.

Completely going off-topic:

I know people play games like ESO with nothing but a controller(my father did for a while), but I just can't imagine playing an MMO without constantly putting my hands on the keyboard to do something.

A controller falls short because it needs both hands, whereas one hand on a mouse and one hand on the keyboard offers you way more options.

Slapshot1188 · September 2019

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

I don’t see how controllers interfere with RP.

RP usually involves communication. Since there is no voice server for the game, it will primarily be through text or emotes. Do you think a gamepad lends itself to good communication?

Honestly? When I play with a mouse I let go of the mouse to type in chat with both hands. I don't really see much difference with a gamepad replacing the mouse.

And damn you for putting me in a position to defend this shit show even in a trivial way

Fair enough. I cannot imagine playing like that and believe that conversations will be menu driven which just makes me cringe. But if people like the idea more power to em.

ChildoftheShadows · September 2019

Keyboard as mentioned or attached to the controller

I’m not a fan just don’t understand the correlation

Iselin · September 2019

Lokero said:

Completely going off-topic:
I know people play games like ESO with nothing but a controller(my father did for a while), but I just can't imagine playing an MMO without constantly putting my hands on the keyboard to do something.

A controller falls short because it needs both hands, whereas one hand on a mouse and one hand on the keyboard offers you way more options.

You should buy your dad a good gaming mouse - they're much better than controllers if you have a good one.

Another off-topic aside:

I've been playing a bit of WOW classic the past of couple of weeks and the combination of so many abilities with cast times and then cool downs and the 1.5s global CDs are reminding me why once upon a time I was a mouse clicker. The pace is just so glacially slow there's zero need for a gaming mouse or controller or anything else designed for speedy game play.

Quizzical · September 2019

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

I don’t see how controllers interfere with RP.

RP usually involves communication. Since there is no voice server for the game, it will primarily be through text or emotes. Do you think a gamepad lends itself to good communication?

Honestly? When I play with a mouse I let go of the mouse to type in chat with both hands. I don't really see much difference with a gamepad replacing the mouse.

And damn you for putting me in a position to defend this shit show even in a trivial way

It's a lot harder to type if you're mostly playing with a gamepad than keyboard and mouse. I have a lot of experience with this.

With a mouse, you've probably already got one hand on the keyboard. To switch to both hands on the keyboard to type, you just let go of the mouse and move one hand.

With a gamepad, you've probably got two hands on the gamepad and none on the keyboard. Furthermore, your hands are what is holding the gamepad up, so if you just let go of it to grab a keyboard, it drops on the floor or in your lap or whatever. Let go of a mouse and it just sits there on whatever surface it was already on. So with a gamepad, you don't just move a hand; you have to stop to place the gamepad in a stable position before you can go for the keyboard.

Worse, without a need for a hand on the keyboard, you're likely sitting further back and not right at the keyboard. So you don't just need to move a hand. You need to move your chair, or at least adjust how you're sitting. That takes a lot more time and effort than just moving a hand, so you might just decide that you don't actually need to say what you would have said if it were easier.

Even so, for lengthy chatting, you set aside whatever non-keyboard device you were using to play the game and have both hands on the keyboard, anyway. I'm not a role-player, but my notion of it mostly revolves around extended chats in a safe area, not trying to sneak in a sentence here and there between getting stabbed. The latter is what a gamepad would make much harder to do.

Iselin · September 2019

Quizzical said:

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

I don’t see how controllers interfere with RP.

RP usually involves communication. Since there is no voice server for the game, it will primarily be through text or emotes. Do you think a gamepad lends itself to good communication?

Honestly? When I play with a mouse I let go of the mouse to type in chat with both hands. I don't really see much difference with a gamepad replacing the mouse.

And damn you for putting me in a position to defend this shit show even in a trivial way

It's a lot harder to type if you're mostly playing with a gamepad than keyboard and mouse. I have a lot of experience with this.

With a mouse, you've probably already got one hand on the keyboard. To switch to both hands on the keyboard to type, you just let go of the mouse and move one hand.

With a gamepad, you've probably got two hands on the gamepad and none on the keyboard. Furthermore, your hands are what is holding the gamepad up, so if you just let go of it to grab a keyboard, it drops on the floor or in your lap or whatever. Let go of a mouse and it just sits there on whatever surface it was already on. So with a gamepad, you don't just move a hand; you have to stop to place the gamepad in a stable position before you can go for the keyboard.

Worse, without a need for a hand on the keyboard, you're likely sitting further back and not right at the keyboard. So you don't just need to move a hand. You need to move your chair, or at least adjust how you're sitting. That takes a lot more time and effort than just moving a hand, so you might just decide that you don't actually need to say what you would have said if it were easier.

Even so, for lengthy chatting, you set aside whatever non-keyboard device you were using to play the game and have both hands on the keyboard, anyway. I'm not a role-player, but my notion of it mostly revolves around extended chats in a safe area, not trying to sneak in a sentence here and there between getting stabbed. The latter is what a gamepad would make much harder to do.

I've been using a gaming mouse + KB for years. I don't even like using a controller unless I have to for the little bit of console gaming I do which is almost 100% NHL hockey.

There's no doubt that M+KB is more comfortable and natural for me. But I fail to see what the big deal is that this game, if it ever is a game, has controller support. ESO on the PC has it there as an option and some like that. I've never used it myself.

Theocritus · September 2019

This wasn't really on the radar anyway, but that will be a dealbreaker for sure.

Quizzical · September 2019

Iselin said:

Quizzical said:

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

I don’t see how controllers interfere with RP.

RP usually involves communication. Since there is no voice server for the game, it will primarily be through text or emotes. Do you think a gamepad lends itself to good communication?

Honestly? When I play with a mouse I let go of the mouse to type in chat with both hands. I don't really see much difference with a gamepad replacing the mouse.

And damn you for putting me in a position to defend this shit show even in a trivial way

It's a lot harder to type if you're mostly playing with a gamepad than keyboard and mouse. I have a lot of experience with this.

With a mouse, you've probably already got one hand on the keyboard. To switch to both hands on the keyboard to type, you just let go of the mouse and move one hand.

With a gamepad, you've probably got two hands on the gamepad and none on the keyboard. Furthermore, your hands are what is holding the gamepad up, so if you just let go of it to grab a keyboard, it drops on the floor or in your lap or whatever. Let go of a mouse and it just sits there on whatever surface it was already on. So with a gamepad, you don't just move a hand; you have to stop to place the gamepad in a stable position before you can go for the keyboard.

Worse, without a need for a hand on the keyboard, you're likely sitting further back and not right at the keyboard. So you don't just need to move a hand. You need to move your chair, or at least adjust how you're sitting. That takes a lot more time and effort than just moving a hand, so you might just decide that you don't actually need to say what you would have said if it were easier.

Even so, for lengthy chatting, you set aside whatever non-keyboard device you were using to play the game and have both hands on the keyboard, anyway. I'm not a role-player, but my notion of it mostly revolves around extended chats in a safe area, not trying to sneak in a sentence here and there between getting stabbed. The latter is what a gamepad would make much harder to do.

I've been using a gaming mouse + KB for years. I don't even like using a controller unless I have to for the little bit of console gaming I do which is almost 100% NHL hockey.

There's no doubt that M+KB is more comfortable and natural for me. But I fail to see what the big deal is that this game, if it ever is a game, has controller support. ESO on the PC has it there as an option and some like that. I've never used it myself.

Making a game controller friendly isn't about official controller support. That rarely works right, anyway, so official support doesn't matter. Rather, in order to make a game controller friendly:

1) Make sure that it never requires analog movements that are both fast and precise. (Requiring fast or precise but not both at once is okay.)

2) Try not to require all that much analog movement of the mouse pointer at all. Having to stop to navigate menus now and then is fine. Having mouse clicking on things as an option is fine so long as there is a non-mouse option. Needing analog movement for every single attack or skill use is not.

3) Have highly versatile keybinds so that every single control in the game can be remapped to any arbitrary keyboard key or mouse button, or an arbitrary combination of two of them. (Bonus points if you allow arbitrary combinations of three.)

I don't think there is anything objectionable about (3), even to players who don't use a gamepad. Points (1) and (2) do restrict what a game can do somewhat.

Kyleran · September 2019

Clearly they are planning for delivery on a console which is financially smart but limits the UI and designs in ways I don't care for.

ESO is the classic example of this and one of the reasons I don't play it.

POE suffers from this same issue to some degree however I was blown away this evening after downloading the new Blight expansion to see there are now control keys added to the interface. (CTRL-Q CTRL-W etc.)

Finally may be able to slot all of my skills instead of having to swap them out constantly which I Ioath doing.

Iselin · September 2019

Kyleran said:

Clearly they are planning for delivery on a console which is financially smart but limits the UI and designs in ways I don't care for.

ESO is the classic example of this and one of the reasons I don't play it.

POE suffers from this same issue to some degree however I was blown away this evening after downloading the new Blight expansion to see there are now control keys added to the interface. (CTRL-Q CTRL-W etc.)

Finally may be able to slot all of my skills instead of having to swap them out constantly which I Ioath doing.

If FFXIV didn't exist on the console and GW2 wasn't PC exclusive you might have a point.

Limited slotted abilities chosen from a larger pool of possible abilities is a design choice not necessarily dictated by future plans of console release. I prefer it to ability and hot bar bloat... but that's just me.

Quizzical · September 2019

Kyleran said:

Clearly they are planning for delivery on a console which is financially smart but limits the UI and designs in ways I don't care for.

ESO is the classic example of this and one of the reasons I don't play it.

POE suffers from this same issue to some degree however I was blown away this evening after downloading the new Blight expansion to see there are now control keys added to the interface. (CTRL-Q CTRL-W etc.)

Finally may be able to slot all of my skills instead of having to swap them out constantly which I Ioath doing.

Not sure what you're talking about there. PoE is pretty much the opposite of controller-friendly.

anemo · September 2019

Lokero said:

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

I don’t see how controllers interfere with RP.

RP usually involves communication. Since there is no voice server for the game, it will primarily be through text or emotes. Do you think a gamepad lends itself to good communication?

Honestly? When I play with a mouse I let go of the mouse to type in chat with both hands. I don't really see much difference with a gamepad replacing the mouse.

And damn you for putting me in a position to defend this shit show even in a trivial way

That's true. I doubt anyone types with their hand on the mouse, unless they are finger-peckers anyway.

Even though I agree, I will say that it is slightly more awkward to pick up and set down a controller constantly.

The real issue has nothing to do with communication. The problem is that when games design around a controller, they tend to be incredibly simple and shallow gameplay systems.
You can only do so much on a controller.

Completely going off-topic:
I know people play games like ESO with nothing but a controller(my father did for a while), but I just can't imagine playing an MMO without constantly putting my hands on the keyboard to do something.

A controller falls short because it needs both hands, whereas one hand on a mouse and one hand on the keyboard offers you way more options.

Fighting games are designed for controllers, and they some of the fastest, complex, and most responsive games around.

So it's more of a design problem. If you want to see a multiplayer rpg fighter you could check out Absolver. (It's fun though though not a real MMO and player base keeps itself above 100).

Thane · September 2019

console game, couldn't care less, inferior controls, and most likely they will end with like 8 skill at a time max.

not my mmo.

Quizzical · September 2019

bigmilk said:

anemo said:

Fighting games are designed for controllers, and they some of the fastest, complex, and most responsive games around.

So it's more of a design problem. If you want to see a multiplayer rpg fighter you could check out Absolver. (It's fun though though not a real MMO and player base keeps itself above 100).

I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that KB+Mouse dominates Controller players in the same game. Ask anyone playing an FPS on console vs the same FPS on a PC. It is one of the very good reasons to separate PC servers from console servers. You only think controllers are great because the games that use them give you auto-aim.

But this whole discussion is pointless because SBS is a sham, Caspain is incompetent, and CoE is nonexistent.

That all depends on the game. If the game requires fast, precise analog movement, then yeah, a mouse is going to destroy a controller. A game based where the skill part is mostly about dodging things will tend to favor controllers over keyboard and mouse, as a D-pad works better there than anything you can do with a keyboard or mouse.

Nubz_Unite · September 2019

I read Slap's and the first half of the thread, I also find myself dropping my mouse for any rp or whatever, I haven't used a controller since 360 was new but I remember my friend had a keyboard attachment and assuming typing is only going to be used for rp you will be using said keyboard in situations where the ability to utilize a gamepad's full controls isn't necessarily required.

Though the fact that Caspian/SBS/CoE is even considering this is ridiculous I think producing a game anyone can play would be more pertinent then making sure controllers can be utilized.

rojoArcueid · September 2019

Thane said:

inferior controls, and most likely they will end with like 8 skill at a time max.

not my mmo.

inferior only for people who play better with something else so that one is just preference. If they add only about 8 skills just because of the gamepad they they just suck at their job. FFXIV let you map 80+ buttons on the PS4 controller. Yes, 80+ and you can use all of them in real time. The same 80+ available on PC by enabling extra hotbars. But Square Enix have the money to make kb/m and gamepad play perfectly fine without screwing up UI or gameplay. These guys probably don't.

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"Designed to be fun on a gamepad"

Caspian ☁Today at 1:43 PM

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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"Designed to be fun on a gamepad"

Caspian ☁Today at 1:43 PM

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV