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The Eorzea Prospect - Final Fantasy XIV - The Dark Side Of The Community - MMORPG.com

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  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    Tiller said:
    Well based on some of the replies to this article it would seem the author's point was proven. People take raiding in FFXIV too serious. Most games I have PUG'd in over the years people rarely speak, even if someone is messing up. We just finish it, or don't and move on with our lives.
    wrong its that on all MMO, if you belive ff14 is the only problem, lol
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  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,095
    I have not experienced this level of toxicity in the casual random duty finder. Maybe at end game raiding, but not before it.

    Saying that.....if you treat people like shit in a game you are a shit person and are probably too much of a coward to do the same in real life. It's a game, get over yourselves.
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  • mmrvmmrv Member RarePosts: 305
    I find this to be a microcosm of our society right now. You have this self entitle set of people who
    Demand the world gives endlessly to them otherwise “you”re toxic”. The ironic part is that it’s these selfish inconsiderate people expect the world accommodates them who are the actual toxic people in the community.

    Imagine joining very difficult content in a game and being so inconsiderate you have no idea why to do and destroying the fun of 7 other people because in your mind you are entitled to do so because well you exist.

    Even worse imagine being a “journalist” who would write about such a thing and actually victim blame the other people in the group who had their game time ruined because someone else was that inconsiderate.

    That is the disaster of modern western culture right now it’s disgusting. What you voluntarily immigrated to another country and have some disadvantages who would thing but naa let’s blame the people of the country who were willing to give you an opportunity and call them oppressors overflowing with privilege when actually you are an ungrateful selfish greedy ahole.
  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 11,404
    edited September 2019
    Tiller said:
    Well based on some of the replies to this article it would seem the author's point was proven. People take raiding in FFXIV too serious. Most games I have PUG'd in over the years people rarely speak, even if someone is messing up. We just finish it, or don't and move on with our lives.
    wrong its that on all MMO, if you belive ff14 is the only problem, lol
    It also seems the be the one people get the most defensive over when it comes to defending over raiding toxicity. It's been number 1# on the top 5 list for toxic raiding environments for years now, and I have played hundreds and hundreds of MMOs so I've actually seen it all firsthand for myself. 
    [Deleted User]wingoodBuschkatze
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  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 11,404
    mmrv said:
    I find this to be a microcosm of our society right now. You have this self entitle set of people who
    Demand the world gives endlessly to them otherwise “you”re toxic”. The ironic part is that it’s these selfish inconsiderate people expect the world accommodates them who are the actual toxic people in the community.

    Imagine joining very difficult content in a game and being so inconsiderate you have no idea why to do and destroying the fun of 7 other people because in your mind you are entitled to do so because well you exist.

    Even worse imagine being a “journalist” who would write about such a thing and actually victim blame the other people in the group who had their game time ruined because someone else was that inconsiderate.

    That is the disaster of modern western culture right now it’s disgusting. What you voluntarily immigrated to another country and have some disadvantages who would thing but naa let’s blame the people of the country who were willing to give you an opportunity and call them oppressors overflowing with privilege when actually you are an ungrateful selfish greedy ahole.
    You are conflating two separate things. Lazy people are a separate issue. I don't think that is always the case, most times it has to do with the fact that there is zero tolerance for f-ups when it comes to raiding in this game, raid guilds treat it like it's a first job and all you should dedicate your existence to it. There was actually even an article here about it a year or so ago. It's not noob or casual friendly at all.
    [Deleted User]wingood
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  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,043
    Tiller said:
    mmrv said:
    I find this to be a microcosm of our society right now. You have this self entitle set of people who
    Demand the world gives endlessly to them otherwise “you”re toxic”. The ironic part is that it’s these selfish inconsiderate people expect the world accommodates them who are the actual toxic people in the community.

    Imagine joining very difficult content in a game and being so inconsiderate you have no idea why to do and destroying the fun of 7 other people because in your mind you are entitled to do so because well you exist.

    Even worse imagine being a “journalist” who would write about such a thing and actually victim blame the other people in the group who had their game time ruined because someone else was that inconsiderate.

    That is the disaster of modern western culture right now it’s disgusting. What you voluntarily immigrated to another country and have some disadvantages who would thing but naa let’s blame the people of the country who were willing to give you an opportunity and call them oppressors overflowing with privilege when actually you are an ungrateful selfish greedy ahole.
    You are conflating two separate things. Lazy people are a separate issue. I don't think that is always the case, most times it has to do with the fact that there is zero tolerance for f-ups when it comes to raiding in this game, raid guilds treat it like it's a first job and all you should dedicate your existence to it. There was actually even an article here about it a year or so ago. It's not noob or casual friendly at all.
    Well, it is for 95% of the game. But if you want high level raiding? Then you need to make an effort. That goes for FFXIV, and WoW etc. etc. The idea that FFXIV is different in that aspect than other MMOs is absurd. It only gets noticed and pointed out because up till that point the community is extremely friendly in comparison to lots of other games.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
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  • EhliyaEhliya Member UncommonPosts: 223
    End game elite toxicity is actually a game design issue. Developers channel everyone at maximum level into doing repeated "runs" of a limited number of instances. Naturally, the premium for grouping is on the most experienced/YouTube watcher players, who end up dominating these. Casuals and newcomers are met with hostility. The solution? Be more creative in allowing casual and solo players satisfying alternative things to do. Lord of the Rings Online is great at this. You have end game instances. But also solo skirmishes, story line, etc. You can have a ton of fun and earn competitive gear and nice cosmetics, just not as fast and perhaps not the real top of the line stuff. But this is enough for most people - honestly, not everyone wants to grind to just get a tick or two added to their DPS. Bad designs channel casuals and newcomers into these toxic elite environments which means many people basically avoid them.
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  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 3,026
    In random queues literally 76 out of 100 people are helpfull to brand new players. 20 stay silent and say nothing. The other 4 are complete toxic jack asses. PF attitude is generally if you're not good enough don't join. Post end game stuff pretty much watch a YT video. You can say it's your first time which usually goes down well as one good thing about this game is you can explain / have things explained to you and people don't mind generally. Sometimes depends on the party. Usually the only reason why someone explains something in a PF situation is they want it done and don't want to try and do it 3 or 4 times.

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
     I have  always seen nothing but helpful and nice people in FF14 ...

      That being said i always also take the time to watch the Videos for each instance ..

       I recommend Mizzteq. her videos are very well done each instance is very well explained and she has a pleasent voice and delivery ..

      Here is an ex..

     



    Viper482
  • Dr_BinksDr_Binks Member UncommonPosts: 271

    Asch126 said:

    Imagine being so sensitive that you cry like a baby on your husband's shoulder because some random people on FFXIV got mad at your mistake.



    As a FF14 player since 2.0 I have been in quite a few parties that have kicked someone. I was kicked one time because I wasn't doing enough AOE's, but the funny thing was no one told me what I was doing wrong I only found out because one of the party members was in my FC.

    Now just kicking someone with out telling them what they are doing wrong is BS. Sure at lvl 70 content you really should have a good understanding of what is going on but to be such a cold human not to think that saying mean things and treating someone like shit just because they're not as good as you think you are is just BULLSHIT!

    People have feeling and when ever you inter act with anyone you need to think about your actions! I have read a lot of these post like the one here that I'm quoting and they all show the sad state that this culture is coming to!

    Sure it's a pain to try to help someone but what if you need help trying to learn something, how would you feel if everyone around you just said FUCK YOU I don't have the time and kicked you because you made a stupid mistake I don't care how tough you think you are it hurts!!!

    You expect these new people to watch a youtube before running the raid, skip the cut scene and so on,,, you want the to have common decency to YOU! What about your common decency to them? It's a two way street!

    I just hope that the day you need help or a little understanding that your with people that have some common decency!!!
    BuschkatzeTacticalZombeh
  • mmrvmmrv Member RarePosts: 305
    Tiller said:
    mmrv said:
    I find this to be a microcosm of our society right now. You have this self entitle set of people who
    Demand the world gives endlessly to them otherwise “you”re toxic”. The ironic part is that it’s these selfish inconsiderate people expect the world accommodates them who are the actual toxic people in the community.

    Imagine joining very difficult content in a game and being so inconsiderate you have no idea why to do and destroying the fun of 7 other people because in your mind you are entitled to do so because well you exist.

    Even worse imagine being a “journalist” who would write about such a thing and actually victim blame the other people in the group who had their game time ruined because someone else was that inconsiderate.

    That is the disaster of modern western culture right now it’s disgusting. What you voluntarily immigrated to another country and have some disadvantages who would thing but naa let’s blame the people of the country who were willing to give you an opportunity and call them oppressors overflowing with privilege when actually you are an ungrateful selfish greedy ahole.
    You are conflating two separate things. Lazy people are a separate issue. I don't think that is always the case, most times it has to do with the fact that there is zero tolerance for f-ups when it comes to raiding in this game, raid guilds treat it like it's a first job and all you should dedicate your existence to it. There was actually even an article here about it a year or so ago. It's not noob or casual friendly at all.
    There is no conflating the issue, it’s one issue with Two perspectives. One is entitled people thinking that they own others and the other side is don’t ruin my gaming time. Gaming is literally the only place in life this perversion occurs where people who want to play competitive are labeled toxic “elitists”. It’s simply absurd you would never suggest an avid hiker was a toxic elitist because they want to tackle a 6 hour advance hiking trail and didn’t want some out of shape novice in flip flops ruining the experience for them. Not sure how this behavior became acceptable in games to demand your way into every aspect of the game and that others accommodate you. 
    Linif
  • Xbob42Xbob42 Member UncommonPosts: 1
    People aren't bad or toxic for wanting to get things done in a totally voluntary party finder, but it's very toxic of you to name and shame people because you were personally affronted by the groups clearly not being for you. If I have limited time, I want to use it efficiently.

    Now people being huge dicks about someone underperforming or messing up, that's a different story. No one needs a lecture on how bad people think they suck. Anything you can accomplish with a long angry rant is just as easily accomplished with "I'm sorry, but we have limited time and have to replace you. I'm sure you'll get it with some practice, but unfortunately this isn't a practice group. Thanks for your time, and I hope you don't take it personal."

    I can totally understand people being frustrated if they're forming a get-shit-done group and someone is trying to, I don't know, fight against the man? Break to the toxicity? By joining their group with no experience. You're going in intentionally wasting the time of people who clearly communicated the type of group they're forming. In that instance, you are most definitely the toxic asshole. Not to mention presumptuous, disrespectful, audacious and all astride a very high horse.

    You see how you don't want to confirm to how they play? That goes both ways.
    LinifBuschkatze
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,126
    I learn the mechanics because other peoples time are just as valuable to them as mine is to me. I do not join advanced groups if I cannot handle it. I think expecting people to teach you should mean you choose a learning group. Perfectly fine for groups to set out their conditions and kick you if you fail to meet them. 
    Linifcheyane

  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 3,191

    Tiller said:

    Well based on some of the replies to this article it would seem the author's point was proven. People take raiding in FFXIV too serious. Most games I have PUG'd in over the years people rarely speak, even if someone is messing up. We just finish it, or don't and move on with our lives.



    ..and, that's why I hate today's "MMO's". If you do end game content with a mind-set like this, then you pretty much don't actually care at all about the others who .. might actually give a shit about what they do in a (end-game) MMO.

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  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 340
    edited September 2019
    I used to have a problem like this when I first started doing endgame content. The problem was I needed experience of the fights to join most PF parties. I couldn't get experience because I couldn't join parties, it felt like a cruel circle, so I snuck in to parties. That did not go down well, as it was pretty clear I didn't know what I was doing and so the fight was quickly abandoned and I was promptly kicked.

    It felt like I had no way to break my way in to the scene... Then I remembered I could make my own parties, with my own requirements. It was a slow process but I got there in the end, using a combination of FC mates and randoms.

    Yes, there are massive buttholes that play the scene. This is the kind of environment that attracts them and they thrive within competition, but you have ways and tools to deal with them, so utilize these tools. Respect the right of these players to set the requirements of their party in their own vision. Just make your own. Nothing comes out of slinging mud at each other. Live and let live.
    Post edited by Linif on
  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 340
    edited September 2019
    It’s ridiculous to expect players to train themselves on content before playing. Just play and let play. It’s just a game.

    Linif:
    (Quoting on phones is very annoying.)

    That's a very broad stroke. There's so much more to it than that. Let's cherry pick one scenario, DPS. DPS that don't do enough DPS can't hope to pass any of the DPS checks, but there is a way to practice and track your progress. Stone, Sky, Sea allows a player to attempt to work at their DPS (I'm unsure if it covers other areas such as HPS or DTPS). It gives them a good indication whether they're outputting their fair share of DPS to clear the fight.

    It's unreasonable to expect players to go in to endgame content like extremes and savage raids without any sort of preparation. If people want to so that, find the APPROPRIATE party for it or make your own.
  • EdwardiusEdwardius Member UncommonPosts: 4
    edited September 2019
    FF14's endgame rewards intolerance and toxicity. All endgame MMO content does this. It's a game design issue due to enforced limitations and time gating that rewards efficiency over experience. Trying to cherry pick it as a fault that is somehow a unique phenomenon in the game is ignorant and if you pardon my french, fucking retarded of anyone to assume so.

    Blame Square Enix and Yoship for feeding into the same exact issue that WoW had catered to years ago.
    Buschkatze
  • slayerjjslayerjj Member UncommonPosts: 8
    To people who say this article is bs, when I started playing the game, I went for a treasure chest during my dailies at a low level dungeon. While it took me literally 5 seconds to open it and get back, the mad elitist of the group was doing/pet and flaming or whatever. Then, I sat to the floor and said give me a moment, I need to report you, both wasting his time and getting on his case. It is the perfect strategy. So, yes FF XIV community can be toxic, but to be honest I haven't found such people since I started playing years ago. They all probably got banned, since even a friend of mine who was being mildly toxic got ported in a dungeon and lectured by the GM. And he was MILDLY toxic, not that bs the wanna be elitists are trying to pull off, while in reality they are terribad and only know how to speedrun a lvl 15 dungeon. Also, even if you don't want to get your time wasted or whatever EVEN at the party finder, kindly explain your situation and let the other guy off, while thanking him and giving him tips to progress. If you are being impolite, then get banned for all I care. One last note. I used the duty finder to find a party for doing Ifrit Hard or Extreme, I don't really remmember at all, I was a new player at the time. One elitist got anxious because he was expecting something easy for his dailies and cried that we are gonna lose because we were all sprouts but him. When Ifrit dropped his nails, he was actively ignoring them, so we would lose and prove his point. I told everyone to focus on the nails, we cleared, called him out for his BS, and everyone started humiliating him. He left without uttering a word, got reported and exposed for his inability to clear basic stuff, while he had proclaimed himself as the pro elite raid clearing noble among the sprout peasants. That's what elitists are, children with personal issues, who feel good about imitating superiority over an easy video game and belittling new players, while they can't even get their real life straight.
    kitaradBuschkatzeTacticalZombeh
  • slayerjjslayerjj Member UncommonPosts: 8

    Scellow said:

    no place for casuals in competitive environment, if you can't deal with that, you choosed the wrong hobby/job



    Chose*
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    edited September 2019
    Dr_Binks said:

    Asch126 said:

    Imagine being so sensitive that you cry like a baby on your husband's shoulder because some random people on FFXIV got mad at your mistake.



    As a FF14 player since 2.0 I have been in quite a few parties that have kicked someone. I was kicked one time because I wasn't doing enough AOE's, but the funny thing was no one told me what I was doing wrong I only found out because one of the party members was in my FC.

    Now just kicking someone with out telling them what they are doing wrong is BS. Sure at lvl 70 content you really should have a good understanding of what is going on but to be such a cold human not to think that saying mean things and treating someone like shit just because they're not as good as you think you are is just BULLSHIT!

    People have feeling and when ever you inter act with anyone you need to think about your actions! I have read a lot of these post like the one here that I'm quoting and they all show the sad state that this culture is coming to!

    Sure it's a pain to try to help someone but what if you need help trying to learn something, how would you feel if everyone around you just said FUCK YOU I don't have the time and kicked you because you made a stupid mistake I don't care how tough you think you are it hurts!!!

    You expect these new people to watch a youtube before running the raid, skip the cut scene and so on,,, you want the to have common decency to YOU! What about your common decency to them? It's a two way street!

    I just hope that the day you need help or a little understanding that your with people that have some common decency!!!
    Giving reason to kick somebody is a risky proposition that can potentially result in disciplinary actions towards the people that initiated the kick. After all, anyone can claim emotional distress from the kick and since that's a disciplinary offense, you merely give ammunition to people.

    Do what the Japanese do. Endure the bad players in silence or disband after a set number of attempts and reform with another group, again in silence.
  • LhumierreLhumierre Member UncommonPosts: 1
    Jesus if this type of stuff gets to you in such a casual friendly game like FFXIV, don't play WoW.
  • LegendCarissoLegendCarisso Member UncommonPosts: 101

    Xeliph said:

    The shitters should join an appropriate party.



    If they don't want do look up a guide/watch a video, they should join or create a fully blind party. Can't fill it this late in the tier? Tough shit, either keep trying or adapt to what the other parties want. There is no reason to waste 7 other people's time because you want to go in blind in a practice party thats already halfway through the fight, or god forbid, a clear party. That is outright incredibly selfish, and you deserve to be flamed for blatantly ignoring the PF description.



    In your first picture "will replace if too many mistakes" is perfectly fair. Are you really saying the other 7 people should just sit there and wait as someone fucks up multiple times in a row, instead of just kicking them and getting someone better? In the SAME exact screenshot there are FOUR practice parties for that same fight. If someone is not confident in their ability to not fuck up, they need more practice, of which there is clearly plenty, as you can see.



    The world does not revolve around any one singular person, they need to consider what the other 7 people want out of the PF, and teaching someone shit they should know is not what they want.



    TL;DR: practice more

    it's not your parties job to carry your ass because you're too lazy/unwilling to look up a guide, and don't want to join one of the many practice parties before trying to leech off of a clear party



    And it's people like you why I won't touch this game with a 20ft barge pole. You reek of toxicity. In my day, I have sherpa'd people in MMOs and other games that have pretty gross wipe mechanics, and have been sherpa'd myself.

    One of my funniest memories was doing Spire of Stars back in its heyday (Destiny 2). The guy who sherpa'd us? He took four blueberries who had never done it before, but we listened to his instructions, and we wiped a TON due to stupid rookie mistakes. Still, compared to most MMO gamers, he had the patience of a Saint. Even played jokes by having the four of us punch the explosives at the base of the lift which did kill us, but we were welcomed to the raid, and we persevered and won. Walked out with sweet loot, and all the while, preserved the story for us to explore blind.

    TL;DR: If you can't do two things at once, then you're just as much a screw-up as the rest of us, and should seriously reconsider your career path in games. There's no excuse for intolerance. Otherwise, consider your game as good as dead.
    BuschkatzeTacticalZombeh
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,643

    Xeliph said:







    it's not your parties job to carry your ass because you're too lazy/unwilling to look up a guide, and don't want to join one of the many practice parties before trying to leech off of a clear party



    And it's people like you why I won't touch this game with a 20ft barge pole. You reek of toxicity. I
    The thing is your both right.

    He's right in that if a group wants to hit the ground running they shouldn't have to contend with someone who has no clue. Alternatively, you are right in that there is a certain fun to just getting into a group, learning together and supporting each other. That people shouldn't have to be abused for playing a multiplayer game with players at very levels of knowledge.

    The Truth of it is that pugs suck. People should be clear on the type of group they are putting together, don't use tools that randomly stick you with others. Just don't. Find like minded people and play with those.
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  • AuessenAuessen Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    "It doesn’t make for a very inviting party with a description that makes you nervous before you ever even do the thing you’re queuing for" All your complaining can be resolved by one thing and one thing only: practice parties. Period. Of course, all of them may not be open to blind runs especially this late, but if not well, you ? can ? make ? your ? own ? It is quite honestly not hard.

    Joining weekly clear parties as someone who has never cleared is honestly quite stupid, and will waste the time of 7 other people and not just yourself. This is savage content, and savage content is optional because everybody in that party needs to be doing their job and doing it well. Expecting people who simply need their weekly clear to bow down to your whims and teach you the fight completely from scratch is a time waster, especially when you can see in that screenshot FOUR other parties made especially for practice.

    Clear groups are there for a reason. They're made by people for people who know mechanics, can play their job properly, and are ready to get a move on. If you keep making mistakes in a clear group where it is expected that you know the fight well enough to not fuck up, then it is obvious you are not ready for clear and should practice this or that phase more in a practice party. You can't expect people to WANT carry your deadweight ass in a raid where everyone is expected to give their 101% all because you refuse to practice and read a guide on what to do.

    Its savage. Its going to be hard. People know its hard. And also, its fucking optional. If you want to participate, then get good and go through practice parties. End of story
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