Are you willing to lose in PvE? (Not about PvP)

Amaranthar · September 2019

One of the biggest problems, in my opinion, is the fact that players don't seem to be willing to lose. Anything. At all.

When an MMORPG is designed for this, well, we get what we got now for games.

Losing comes in many forms. So this subject covers quite a large area.
But the basic question is, are you willing to lose? Can a game be better if you can lose?

This topic is not about PvP, it's about the challenge from PvE game play.

Edit, this subject isn't about losing it all and starting over, it's about losing as a constant risk in you game play, at what you are currently doing.

ChildoftheShadows · September 2019

For me it provides a challenge. I like challenges and the more I can lose the better I feel when I don’t. In EQ the experience and sometimes level loss hurt, so when I managed to go forward it felt that much better. Later in wow when I died it didn’t hurt at all and was just an annoyance.

the games I played the longest were EQ, Eve, and Darkfall Online.

No no one likes to lose but the feeling you get when you “win” with the risk on the line is far greater.

Amaranthar · September 2019

Leeroy Jenkins understood this topic.
But that was a somewhat rare occasion in MMO play, overall and generally speaking.
So again I ask, are you willing to lose, can you see a game being better if losing was always a possibility?

Amaranthar · September 2019

ChildoftheShadows said:

For me it provides a challenge. I like challenges and the more I can lose the better I feel when I don’t. In EQ the experience and sometimes level loss hurt, so when I managed to go forward it felt that much better. Later in wow when I died it didn’t hurt at all and was just an annoyance.

the games I played the longest were EQ, Eve, and Darkfall Online.

No no one likes to lose but the feeling you get when you “win” with the risk on the line is far greater.

Ahh, I jumped the gun on my last post. Thank you for the comment.

Amaranthar · September 2019

In UO, the first really "massively" MMO, when a player died the MOBs around him could and would loot him of some stuff.
Another player, when killing said MOB, would then be able to loot it off that MOB.

None of a player's gear or things carried were safe from being lost.
Your corpse would eventually decay, and anything on it was lost for good.

While this was a loss, it had some good side effects.
> Dying could hurt.
> Friends who helped you resurrect and get you gear back were a value.
> If you died, a helpful stranger often became a friend.
> Guilds often grew because of being helpful in this and other ways.
> Loyalty, due to certainty through actions, was heightened.

I've always felt this was a benefit to my gaming experience.

psychosiz1 · September 2019

I believe for most casual players this is very true. Since MMO success in this day and age comes down largely to people playing the game under a sub or spending money in a cash shop, almost every game is forced to cater to casual fans. I found many veteran mmo players don't mind a challenge and will persevere in many situations. The one constant that seems to drive the most people crazy is open world pvp where higher levels can gank on lower levels. Nothing seems to drive players away from a potentially good game than this.

Ironically I was ready to quit Secret World because I found Polaris way too hard early on. After three times, I was like this is impossible. Thankfully someone pointed out to me Polaris was a multi person dungeon and not a solo experience. In this case, human stupidity and not losing would have been my reason for quitting even though I would have likely blamed it on the game being too hard. I have also found younger people don't like to lose in solo experience but they are ok losing (games like Fortnite, Call of Duty) if they lose as a team and not individually. I have seen this pattern for awhile now among stduents over the years.

Sovrath · September 2019

Always.

Amaranthar · September 2019

DMKano said:

Imo it's not so much willingness to lose - its willingness to make choices that involve sacrifices.

The problem is that meaningful choice has been removed from most MMOs.

Prime example is gear - it's stupid easy gear progression that just keeps giving better stats all the way to best in slot. Players never need to consider what gear to get as there is only one track that gives everything + for all stats

Imagine instead if every piece of gear had both positive and negative stats.

That way if you gain +5 in strength you might also get -5 in agility.

Or you wear +15ac plate but suffer 20% attack speed and 25% attack recovery.

The system doesnt have to be exact like I pointed above but you get the idea.

Bring back meaningful gameplay choices.

That's a turn that's worthy of it's own topic due to the possible depths it can go, but it does fit here too. And I totally agree.

Imagine what your example could do for crafting gear if there's ways that a player can discover to minimize the downside in creating such gear.

Amaranthar · September 2019

Gear repair and breakage is another example.
Proper care required. And then also small chances, increasing with wear, to simply break.

Amaranthar · September 2019

How about traps that really hurt?
Kill you, puts a nasty curse on you, drop you somewhere very dangerous, takes you away from your party?

some-clueless-guy · September 2019

If you are not willing to lose and expect to always win, either the game you play will drive you off after enough losses or you are playing a game where everybody wins all the time and you lie to yourself when it happens, patting yourself on the back.

If win/loss is considered in a simplistic way like in a MOBA — two teams enter, one leaves — even the top players don't always win. The average high ranked player loses a fair amount of times. In fact it is the way a player reacts to the loss that defines how good they are in my opinion, how well they learn from the mistakes they/their team make.

In MMOs win/loss is harder to define, a bit like pay-to-win: someone consider dying a loss and they avoid it at all costs, others couldn't care less. In the end however, if the game let's everybody win all the time, in the long run, even the most asinine of players will figure it out eventually and that dophamine kick they used to get when "winning" will fade out and the game becomes stale and they move on.

I think that in the end it is a matter of making a game where everyone wins and milk the players until they get bored, or force them to lose often enough and risk not having enough players to be sustainable.

Amaranthar · September 2019

Amaranthar said:

In UO, the first really "massively" MMO, when a player died the MOBs around him could and would loot him of some stuff.
Another player, when killing said MOB, would then be able to loot it off that MOB.

None of a player's gear or things carried were safe from being lost.
Your corpse would eventually decay, and anything on it was lost for good.

While this was a loss, it had some good side effects.
> Dying could hurt.
> Friends who helped you resurrect and get you gear back were a value.
> If you died, a helpful stranger often became a friend.
> Guilds often grew because of being helpful in this and other ways.
> Loyalty, due to certainty through actions, was heightened.

I've always felt this was a benefit to my gaming experience.

Going along with this idea, what about tough NPC bandits out there to waylay you?
With surprise? (Unless you can detect them.)

Amaranthar · September 2019

MOB attacks on your house for damage that has a costs to repair?
Sunken, lost ships that cost you big moola?
Death of prized pets? (Maybe a costly resurrection for them?)

Octagon7711 · September 2019

I like ESO, some of the choices you make aren't really losing or winning just different outcomes. But those choices stay with you for the rest of the game. If you decided to help one faction in a village and not the other then every-time you return to that village your choice will remain, no resets or do-overs... until you run an alt.

JeffSpicoli · September 2019

Amaranthar · September 2019

some-clueless-guy said:

If you are not willing to lose and expect to always win, either the game you play will drive you off after enough losses or you are playing a game where everybody wins all the time and you lie to yourself when it happens, patting yourself on the back.

If win/loss is considered in a simplistic way like in a MOBA — two teams enter, one leaves — even the top players don't always win. The average high ranked player loses a fair amount of times. In fact it is the way a player reacts to the loss that defines how good they are in my opinion, how well they learn from the mistakes they/their team make.

In MMOs win/loss is harder to define, a bit like pay-to-win: someone consider dying a loss and they avoid it at all costs, others couldn't care less. In the end however, if the game let's everybody win all the time, in the long run, even the most asinine of players will figure it out eventually and that dophamine kick they used to get when "winning" will fade out and the game becomes stale and they move on.
I think that in the end it is a matter of making a game where everyone wins and milk the players until they get bored, or force them to lose often enough and risk not having enough players to be sustainable.

Oh yeah. It's entirely up to players. They can be assured of wins or they can have a game where losing affects them.

I just wonder if all the gamers who are no longer happy with the status quo have realized yet that it's exactly that they are assured of winning by design that makes their gaming feel lacking now.

Albatroes · September 2019

OP, you make it sound like people who played older mmorpgs 'at their peak' wanted things to be inconvenient and 'to lose,' which wasn't the reality. EVERYONE was looking for shortcuts/advantages where they could cleanly get away with them. But as you elluded to, games were created with more harsh environments back then. Even WoW was considered the more 'casual' option compared to something like Ultima Online/EQ/FFXI.

From personal experience in FFXI, there was always someone complaining about game mechanics on vent, even when we ended up getting to the point where we were selling certain items from HNMs/Attestation kills for relics/etc, a lot people wished they could 'get the money' in order to avoid a lot of the RNG. Fact remained, the games back then were 'good' because it was less about what the 'player wanted' and more about how you survived in such an environment.

People are lying to themselves if they dont admit that they feel good when they are able to do something that a lot of people cannot/choose not to do, which is what made a lot of activities back then 'feel worth it.' Couple that with the entire concept of you either did it or you didn't advance. It doesn't matter what a player ultimately wants for a game to be 'good,' it matters about the environment and the investment those environments create. Unfortunately, we've been living in a world this recent decade that sees 'hard work' as just being stupid.

Vermillion_Raventhal · September 2019

Gamers in general hate to lose. MMORPG are far worst IMO. Hate losses and wasted time is one of the big reasons PvP is generally avoided but it also crosses into the realm or PvE.

sayuu · September 2019

DMKano said:

JeffSpicoli said:

Competitive sports

vs

casual video game

I know so many people who play video games not to win - but to enjoy the experience - they don't care about gearing up or raiding or end game at all.

So in case of video games - you don't have to play to win the game at all, you can play it for pure enjoyment of doing whatever the hell you wish - like some players just log in to chat in general, some love to craft, some only log in to play with their guild, some like to solo etc.....

So it's quite different than professional sports where you play to win and get $$$, and if a pro player is not playing to win - guess what - they lose their job, get kicked off the team.

winning does not mean the same thing to everyone.

to some enjoyment regardless of advancement is winning because that is their goal

Wizardry · September 2019

I remember early days people crying over a few lost xp.In my FFXI it happened,in EQ2 it was there,often a player would refuse to help others regain their corpse runs.

The term used in these games is DEATH but they don't come close to death.Obviously perma death is not the answer so some half witted people designing these systems have to determine what best resembles death without actually dying.

I thought FFXI did it the best,there was always incentive to take on really tough foes "not anymore"but the risk was sort of heavy.If you died you be raised if a player was high enough level to have raise.Then it wasn't a simple raise which would defeat the purpose of dying,you had a 5 minute cool down where all your stats were severely lowered.

What i don't like is these potions that allow players to raise themselves,that is nonsense but likely not from dumbass system designers,more likely under pressure from lame players that want a free will game with zero risk.

No matter what system i have seen game to game,FFXI ALWAYS comes out on top,the game was that well thought out and tested.The only real negative i had with FFXI was not systems but more so drop rates,RMT,cheating otherwise the systems were awesome.

anemo · September 2019

I think you're in the wrong genre if you're playing MMORPGs to win or lose. A multiplayer RPG is about getting a bunch of people together, and seeing what interesting stuff comes of it.

That being said when it comes to a MOBA, FPS, or Battle Royale game. The fact that you "can lose" is why you're playing it, rather than a single player game where you can save scrum every mistake.

Sandmanjw · September 2019

Kinda seems if OP is asking why we all do not like to play rogue like games.

Seems an easy answer.

ChildoftheShadows · September 2019

Gorwe said:

Why'd I be willing to lose? That's insane!

Now, should games be better designed? Yes
Should they be less binary(either faceroll or get rolled ; this applies equally to Souls and to CoD)? Yes
Should they be more genuinely FUN? Yes

But willing to lose or designed to lose? ...fml! What is this?

Overall I'm willing to lose if a price of a loss is smaller than the reward at the end of alternate path(caused by said loss). But losing IS NOT FUN, wake up! Games are here to ENTERTAIN(=fun), lol.

Do you want to play games that are so easy you can’t lose or that risk nothing if you do?

Mendel · September 2019

I'd love to get an honest answer to this question from some whales. Now that would be interesting.

ChildoftheShadows · September 2019

Mendel said:

I'd love to get an honest answer to this question from some whales. Now that would be interesting.

Of course they do that’s why they pay, so they have a better chance of not losing. If not for that they wouldn’t be able to pay for advantage.

OGDeathRow · September 2019

Amaranthar said:

One of the biggest problems, in my opinion, is the fact that players don't seem to be willing to lose. Anything. At all.

When an MMORPG is designed for this, well, we get what we got now for games.

Losing comes in many forms. So this subject covers quite a large area.
But the basic question is, are you willing to lose? Can a game be better if you can lose?

I am a HUGE dark souls fan, i like to lose cause then the win feels that much better

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Are you willing to lose in PvE? (Not about PvP)

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Are you willing to lose in PvE? (Not about PvP)

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Aloha Mr Hand !