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So you want Open World Dungeons in future MMOs? Well tell us whats the best way to implement it

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,324
    Sovrath said:
    Open world dungeons for me are:
    Having to beat a chain of quests to "unlock" the dungeon. The dungeon will be an area on the world map that is being spawned as a dungeon for that specific group of players that have unlocked it.

    The dungeon will only open up if all group members finished the quest chain,  quest chain should be hard to finish., having a full group (4,5, 6) players, the level of the dungeon mobs are based on the average of the group players levels.

    Dungeon will have a few waves of mobs with a mini boss in every wave, every wave should be harder with better loot.  The last boss should be hard and an epic fight that takes time to kill.
    After finishing the open dungeon on the open world the players will be on a specific timer that they can not do the dungeon again for a week, 2 weeks or even a month. To re-do that open dungeon, there should be another quest to finish so that your player + other players trigger the open world dungeon spawn.

    When you trigger the open world dungeon, the dungeon should be private to your group. Give the spawn points of these dungeons random spots on the world map. So that you are not being queued if another group is doing it.
    Other players (non group members) should see your fights with these dungeon spawns. But they can not help the fight.

    Loot drops should be random, as we want the players to do the dungeon a few times to get their specific stats gear/weapons and or even crafting recipes.
    And because the dungeon spawn bases its mobs level on the average of the player levels, this will keep it hard every time you run it.

    This open world mmo should also have real open cave dungeons, the deeper you go the harder it gets. Even some areas where cave dungeons or area's are PvP only.

    Raid dungeons should have the same mechanics of opening them up. Huge quest chain to open the availability to your player, all members should have finished the quest chain to have access. raid members all get a timeout token for an even longer time after finishing the raid.


    This is the exact opposite of open world dungeons. 

    "Real" open world dungeons do not work systematically in MMO's. It does in RPG games. Not in MMO's.
    And how more crowded the MMO is the less attractive this "real" open world dungeons will be.


    Worked well in Lineage 2.

    I think it's the expectations that have to be managed. If players want an experience that is solely them then "no" it won't work for them. If players understand that they can run into everyone and anyone and that's ok with them then sure, they work.


    The problem is, that groups will be farming these open world dungeons and you will probably never get a chance. Or the Boss spawn will be stolen while you are still trying to kill the ads.
    Well, again with the Lineage 2 example, that would prompt some sort of pvp response which would be in line with that game's type of game play.

    For PVE? Not sure what the answer is. Open dungeons but with instanced bosses? Make it so that the bosses have a LOT of guards like VegetableOil suggested? This way it's hard to farm them? Not sure.



  • CryptoAhashCryptoAhash Member UncommonPosts: 49
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Open world dungeons for me are:
    Having to beat a chain of quests to "unlock" the dungeon. The dungeon will be an area on the world map that is being spawned as a dungeon for that specific group of players that have unlocked it.

    The dungeon will only open up if all group members finished the quest chain,  quest chain should be hard to finish., having a full group (4,5, 6) players, the level of the dungeon mobs are based on the average of the group players levels.

    Dungeon will have a few waves of mobs with a mini boss in every wave, every wave should be harder with better loot.  The last boss should be hard and an epic fight that takes time to kill.
    After finishing the open dungeon on the open world the players will be on a specific timer that they can not do the dungeon again for a week, 2 weeks or even a month. To re-do that open dungeon, there should be another quest to finish so that your player + other players trigger the open world dungeon spawn.

    When you trigger the open world dungeon, the dungeon should be private to your group. Give the spawn points of these dungeons random spots on the world map. So that you are not being queued if another group is doing it.
    Other players (non group members) should see your fights with these dungeon spawns. But they can not help the fight.

    Loot drops should be random, as we want the players to do the dungeon a few times to get their specific stats gear/weapons and or even crafting recipes.
    And because the dungeon spawn bases its mobs level on the average of the player levels, this will keep it hard every time you run it.

    This open world mmo should also have real open cave dungeons, the deeper you go the harder it gets. Even some areas where cave dungeons or area's are PvP only.

    Raid dungeons should have the same mechanics of opening them up. Huge quest chain to open the availability to your player, all members should have finished the quest chain to have access. raid members all get a timeout token for an even longer time after finishing the raid.


    This is the exact opposite of open world dungeons. 

    "Real" open world dungeons do not work systematically in MMO's. It does in RPG games. Not in MMO's.
    And how more crowded the MMO is the less attractive this "real" open world dungeons will be.


    Worked well in Lineage 2.

    I think it's the expectations that have to be managed. If players want an experience that is solely them then "no" it won't work for them. If players understand that they can run into everyone and anyone and that's ok with them then sure, they work.


    The problem is, that groups will be farming these open world dungeons and you will probably never get a chance. Or the Boss spawn will be stolen while you are still trying to kill the ads.
    Well, again with the Lineage 2 example, that would prompt some sort of pvp response which would be in line with that game's type of game play.

    For PVE? Not sure what the answer is. Open dungeons but with instanced bosses? Make it so that the bosses have a LOT of guards like VegetableOil suggested? This way it's hard to farm them? Not sure.

    Good points. I fully agree.
    The topic starter did not say anything about it being a PvP or PvE kind of mmo indeed.

  • CryptoAhashCryptoAhash Member UncommonPosts: 49
    Sovrath said:
    Open world dungeons for me are:
    Having to beat a chain of quests to "unlock" the dungeon. The dungeon will be an area on the world map that is being spawned as a dungeon for that specific group of players that have unlocked it.

    The dungeon will only open up if all group members finished the quest chain,  quest chain should be hard to finish., having a full group (4,5, 6) players, the level of the dungeon mobs are based on the average of the group players levels.

    Dungeon will have a few waves of mobs with a mini boss in every wave, every wave should be harder with better loot.  The last boss should be hard and an epic fight that takes time to kill.
    After finishing the open dungeon on the open world the players will be on a specific timer that they can not do the dungeon again for a week, 2 weeks or even a month. To re-do that open dungeon, there should be another quest to finish so that your player + other players trigger the open world dungeon spawn.

    When you trigger the open world dungeon, the dungeon should be private to your group. Give the spawn points of these dungeons random spots on the world map. So that you are not being queued if another group is doing it.
    Other players (non group members) should see your fights with these dungeon spawns. But they can not help the fight.

    Loot drops should be random, as we want the players to do the dungeon a few times to get their specific stats gear/weapons and or even crafting recipes.
    And because the dungeon spawn bases its mobs level on the average of the player levels, this will keep it hard every time you run it.

    This open world mmo should also have real open cave dungeons, the deeper you go the harder it gets. Even some areas where cave dungeons or area's are PvP only.

    Raid dungeons should have the same mechanics of opening them up. Huge quest chain to open the availability to your player, all members should have finished the quest chain to have access. raid members all get a timeout token for an even longer time after finishing the raid.


    This is the exact opposite of open world dungeons. 

    "Real" open world dungeons do not work systematically in MMO's. It does in RPG games. Not in MMO's.
    And how more crowded the MMO is the less attractive this "real" open world dungeons will be.


    Worked well in Lineage 2.

    I think it's the expectations that have to be managed. If players want an experience that is solely them then "no" it won't work for them. If players understand that they can run into everyone and anyone and that's ok with them then sure, they work.


    The problem is, that groups will be farming these open world dungeons and you will probably never get a chance. Or the Boss spawn will be stolen while you are still trying to kill the ads.
    Most mmo with open world game currently makes no sense, boss spawn is only 1 single mobs, I mean rich people comes out of their house with 16 elite bodyguards, big Bosses should spawn with mini bosses and armies.
    Sure I agree. But as I have not yet experienced any game doing it like that. I just shared my thoughts about how I would implement open world dungeon mechanics. As that is I think the question of this topic I guess right?

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,509
    AlBQuirky said:
    Open world dungeons for me are:
    Having to beat a chain of quests to "unlock" the dungeon. The dungeon will be an area on the world map that is being spawned as a dungeon for that specific group of players that have unlocked it.

    The dungeon will only open up if all group members finished the quest chain,  quest chain should be hard to finish., having a full group (4,5, 6) players, the level of the dungeon mobs are based on the average of the group players levels.

    Dungeon will have a few waves of mobs with a mini boss in every wave, every wave should be harder with better loot.  The last boss should be hard and an epic fight that takes time to kill.
    After finishing the open dungeon on the open world the players will be on a specific timer that they can not do the dungeon again for a week, 2 weeks or even a month. To re-do that open dungeon, there should be another quest to finish so that your player + other players trigger the open world dungeon spawn.

    When you trigger the open world dungeon, the dungeon should be private to your group. Give the spawn points of these dungeons random spots on the world map. So that you are not being queued if another group is doing it.
    Other players (non group members) should see your fights with these dungeon spawns. But they can not help the fight.

    Loot drops should be random, as we want the players to do the dungeon a few times to get their specific stats gear/weapons and or even crafting recipes.
    And because the dungeon spawn bases its mobs level on the average of the player levels, this will keep it hard every time you run it.

    This open world mmo should also have real open cave dungeons, the deeper you go the harder it gets. Even some areas where cave dungeons or area's are PvP only.

    Raid dungeons should have the same mechanics of opening them up. Huge quest chain to open the availability to your player, all members should have finished the quest chain to have access. raid members all get a timeout token for an even longer time after finishing the raid.


    This is the exact opposite of open world dungeons. 

    "Real" open world dungeons do not work systematically in MMO's. It does in RPG games. Not in MMO's.
    And how more crowded the MMO is the less attractive this "real" open world dungeons will be.


    So, then... "Open World Dungeons" is no for you?
    Yes it is.
    Sorry about that. When I read your post the first time, i read it like this.

    Thought one: Open world dungeons for me.
    thought two: This is what I like.

    So I was confused by the way I read your post :blush:

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,239
    Open world dungeon boss camping worst mechanic ever created.
    Steelhelm
  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 Member UncommonPosts: 396
    edited August 30
    Seems easy to me:
    1) Live and let DIE (i.e progression isn't based on your capabilities)
    2) To make pt. 1 fun, the player has to have some clue when he/she is doing something dumb/dangeorus.

    Other interesting ideas:
    3) Dungeons with endless depth, like a deep forest area, where things are progressively more difficult, and in every case depending on your starting point, suicidal if you run out of luck. No player would be able to defend him-/herself against say 100 OP hostiles entities in a deep forest.

    4) Adventure based. No skill treees. Just equipment, skill and knowledge and a little bit of luck.

    5) A dynamic world, where monsters and npc's aren't fixed in one "quest location".

    6) An environment where every location has a deeper meaning to it, areas to hide, to retreat from, maybe dangerous dead ends or having risky features like balancing off a cliff edge, or on a log across a wild river/chasm.

    7) Dynamic weather, similar to pt. 6, offering a more dynamic game environment that might benefit your adventure (like fog to more easily sneak by somebody) or lead to doom (sun and heatstroke, or, dying of hypothermia i the cold winter).

    8) Similar to pt. 4 re. adventure, Player driven task. Why go into the woods? You decide! Get wood? Explore? Track somebody? Guard? Assault? Look for random stuff? Try to get rich or die trying?
    Post edited by Gamer54321 on
    SteelhelmAmaranthar
  • GroqstrongGroqstrong Member UncommonPosts: 337
    edited August 30
    Lineage 2 did open world dungeons pretty well.  Tower of Insolence and Antharas Liar come to mind.  It was not easy, kept you on your toes and Bosses where on timers.  Sometimes days and weeks.  The game was open world but in a way it could be considered 1 big dungeon because there where so many world bosses scattered throughout and hordes of mobs to fight through.

    Eventually multiple guilds formed big alliances, these alliances would have scouts camped or have a prediction on when boss timers would reset, which lead to massive pvp battles to control who would get the kill for a world boss.

    Honestly i would be happy with Lineage III game that uses the all the concepts from Lineage 2 with WASD/MOUSE movement, updated graphics engine and a little bit more relaxed xp system. 
  • KingNaidKingNaid Member UncommonPosts: 422
    make the dungeons n gameplay soulslike n make most dungeons connected through a vast open subterranean world
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,372
    edited August 30
    My experience has been:

    1. Whomever tags the mob first
    2. Whomever does the most damage
    3. The way ESO does it.

    I don't have a preference. I just adapt to the rules given to us.
    AlBQuirky
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member RarePosts: 2,868
    or make it like gw2 when just hitting the boss enough would give you a reward?, or lets get real here, make it so said boss don't give anything important as gear advancement, make it mats to make vanity clothes or others skins for horse sadle, weapons skin, maybe a item required to a buff of xp/gold for the guild, something who is nice to have, but not requirement for progress

    The problem I see is devs love to make this riad as part of the progress, because they know if they don't no one would care in doing so, so if you making people doing something where is the fun?


    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,633
    Some keypoints would be: Large dungeons and many of them, random spawns (as much as possible) instead of placeholders. Wide range of enemy levels/power so weaker and strong players can interact (I am no fan of forced grouping, but a huge fan of games that provide optional social elements).

    Thinking outside the box (and remember anything is possible; just because something has not been done yet or even tried and failed, doesn't mean it is impossible):

    Dynamic generated dungeon mechanics, that changes dungeon layouts and their content ... and I mean slowly, like every day some new area opens up and and an old one disappears - It is still the dungeon from yesterday, but maybe quite different from last month.
    It could be like warframe does their generated maps; they piece together chunks in a random manner, and for a long time it does feel like unique maps (1000 hours played obviously break this illusion)... but anyways, make it more advanced and maybe add some extra randomness to the generated. Obviously combine with keypoints mentioned at the top.

    You CAN innovate on old concepts and keep the spirit in which it was made .. it is not about nostaligia or whatever the usual narrow minded argumentation gets thrown around.

    Amaranthar
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,513
    There's a lot of ideas posted here that I like a lot. 

    In my opinion if you want a world full of open world Dungeons, then you should design the game with low power gaps so that players can actually function in an "Open World." 
    It doesn't do any good to have open world Dungeons, and then heavily restrict them by levels. 
    That's just not "open" to the players. 


    Once upon a time....

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,324
    There's a lot of ideas posted here that I like a lot. 

    In my opinion if you want a world full of open world Dungeons, then you should design the game with low power gaps so that players can actually function in an "Open World." 
    It doesn't do any good to have open world Dungeons, and then heavily restrict them by levels. 
    That's just not "open" to the players. 


    Well, you could have areas for higher level players but a larger group of lower level players could survive.



  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,513
    edited September 3
    Sovrath said:
    There's a lot of ideas posted here that I like a lot. 

    In my opinion if you want a world full of open world Dungeons, then you should design the game with low power gaps so that players can actually function in an "Open World." 
    It doesn't do any good to have open world Dungeons, and then heavily restrict them by levels. 
    That's just not "open" to the players. 


    Well, you could have areas for higher level players but a larger group of lower level players could survive.
    Yes, but I would break it down more than that.

    First off, in a world with open Dungeons, I think there should be plenty of Dungeons, and they should have levels of depth that get increasingly harder.

    And most Dungeons, but not all, should start with a "level 1" area that's tailored for the first 20% of Character levels/skills. And each successive level deeper should be tailored for the next 20% of Character levels/skills. 
    And so on, to a level depth of 5, tailored for the top 20% of Character levels/skills. 

    Then some Dungeons should start moving beyond that, with Dungeon level 6, 7, and so on. 
    At these levels, it gets, say, 5% more difficult.

    In that formula I just listed, assume a party of 8 as the basis for survivability. 

    So a party of 10 of the highest 20% of Characters might be well suited for the 6th level of depth. 
    A party of 16 of the lowest 20% of levels should have survivability in the 2nd level. 
    And so on. 

    By "survivability" I don't mean without difficulty.

    That's just a rough guide to get the point across. 

    But there's another issue that's important here.
    Boss MOBs. 
    I don't think Bosses should be sitting there at the deepest levels waiting to be farmed.
    And I don't think Bosses, or any MOB, should have some special reward that's predictable in their possession. I think it should be random, much like P+P Advanced D&D had. So some few might not have any special item on them, although they would likely have good amounts of gold or some other basic need. 

    I think Boss MOBs should be spawned with world events, mostly in the deepest levels of Dungeons.
    And each Boss MOB should come with an army of some sort or another. 

    And their location should be random. Usually in a Dungeon or Ruins, maybe a Cemetery, etc. 

    And sometimes, multiple Boss spawns, armies included, should happen as part of one World Event. 

    And these Bosses should have a purpose, basically boiling down to the destruction of Humanity.
    GMs should play a role in this, guiding the World Event towards some goal. 

    Furthermore, when a Boss MOB spawns, the army should start spreading outward, or in the case of Dungeons, upward.
    Players will recognize that a Boss is spawned when they see an increase in difficulty in a Dungeon, or other place. 


    Sovrathkjempff

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,513
    edited September 3
    By the way, a couple more comments.

    What I've done here is reduce the power gaps as such.
    In a level based game with 80 levels, where zoned content is broken down into groups of 5 levels, each group is about 6+% of the players base. That's opposed to 20% in my example of "lower power gaps."

    Also, you can see that this allows for mixed groups more freely. 
    You can have some Characters of a lower 20% mixed in with some Characters of a higher 20%, and still have some survivability in the Dungeon levels that's tailored to the higher leveled Characters. 

    And greater numbers improve the odds. 

    But again, this is rough. It would need a lot more time and refinement than I've put into it to be workable in a great way. 

    One more thing.
    Randomness is the MMORPG's friend. Otherwise, the game's excitement, it's magic, gets stifled with predictability. 
    kjempff

    Once upon a time....

  • BiszcuitBiszcuit Newbie CommonPosts: 9

    There are places that have gates and portals similar to the .hack: infection game that lets you choose servers to try dungeons, etc. There are servers with lobbies for dungeons, temples, caves, castles, or etc that wait to be filled, to a limit, to start the dungeon, temple, cave, castle, or etc with the players that were in those lobbies. You have to travel to certain locations where you can talk to a NPC character who lets you enter servers that warp you to whatever section of the story that you're up to. Each server holds a limited amount of players and each server holds players that are all the same levels within intervals of 10 (example: server 1 - levels 1-10, server 2 - levels 10-20). You can always enter servers of any level higher than your level, but you can't enter servers that are any levels lower than it indicates that aren't your level.If the battle zone is locked when you get up to any boss/miniboss in the story, dungeon, temple, cave, castle, or etc, you can go up to something there and press a button to fight the battle in another server either alone or with other players to progress.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,513
    Biszcuit said:

    There are places that have gates and portals similar to the .hack: infection game that lets you choose servers to try dungeons, etc. There are servers with lobbies for dungeons, temples, caves, castles, or etc that wait to be filled, to a limit, to start the dungeon, temple, cave, castle, or etc with the players that were in those lobbies. You have to travel to certain locations where you can talk to a NPC character who lets you enter servers that warp you to whatever section of the story that you're up to. Each server holds a limited amount of players and each server holds players that are all the same levels within intervals of 10 (example: server 1 - levels 1-10, server 2 - levels 10-20). You can always enter servers of any level higher than your level, but you can't enter servers that are any levels lower than it indicates that aren't your level.If the battle zone is locked when you get up to any boss/miniboss in the story, dungeon, temple, cave, castle, or etc, you can go up to something there and press a button to fight the battle in another server either alone or with other players to progress.


    /joking
    Boy, if that doesn't make me feel immersed in a world open to exploration and adventure, I don't know what does. 

    Once upon a time....

  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 63
    first thing you need to do is get rid of the "dungeon" theme and replace it with "warfronts".  Each warfront then is a mini pve campaign in itself that has a start  and a conclusion, rewards and then a restart where the enemy retakes the ground in force. 

    so the new group dungeons are castles and lairs that arent a linear romp through. They are complete with monster generators ( barracks), siege, alarms ect.  Destroying the monster generators lets players advance until the campaign is completed. Then everyone who participated is rewarded for their participation, the enemy swarms and overwhelms at some random time after its over and its on again.  During that random time between when its over and before it begins there are resources that can be extracted and special crafting stations called enemy forges which  crafter types can make use of. 

    the monkey wrench is that the enemy will build new generators when possible or repair existing ones. There would also be a number of random elements like visiting bosses from other warfronts,  warparties, assasins, and even random natural disasters etc . Pure mayhem. 

    next thing to get rid of is the "group/raid group" window. People will then have to learn to work together as individuals. No bars to manage. The bar is right underneath their name now which will require additional awareness. 

    join anytime solo for some fun. All are welcome because there are no more "groups".  Players vs mobs. Get in and fight.

    That can easily be done now.  


    AmarantharVermillion_Raventhal
    We shall know them by their works
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,513
    Rungar said:
    first thing you need to do is get rid of the "dungeon" theme and replace it with "warfronts".  Each warfront then is a mini pve campaign in itself that has a start  and a conclusion, rewards and then a restart where the enemy retakes the ground in force. 

    so the new group dungeons are castles and lairs that arent a linear romp through. They are complete with monster generators ( barracks), siege, alarms ect.  Destroying the monster generators lets players advance until the campaign is completed. Then everyone who participated is rewarded for their participation, the enemy swarms and overwhelms at some random time after its over and its on again.  During that random time between when its over and before it begins there are resources that can be extracted and special crafting stations called enemy forges which  crafter types can make use of. 

    the monkey wrench is that the enemy will build new generators when possible or repair existing ones. There would also be a number of random elements like visiting bosses from other warfronts,  warparties, assasins, and even random natural disasters etc . Pure mayhem. 

    next thing to get rid of is the "group/raid group" window. People will then have to learn to work together as individuals. No bars to manage. The bar is right underneath their name now which will require additional awareness. 

    join anytime solo for some fun. All are welcome because there are no more "groups".  Players vs mobs. Get in and fight.

    That can easily be done now.  


    I love it! 
    You could do the same thing with Dungeons, if they were not such linear constructions (map wise). 
    That would be a blast to play! 

    Once upon a time....

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,552
    #1 FUN experience,what does that even mean?
    #2 how to implement?

    We already have them and FFXI did it a game designed for the PS2.The ONLY time you went into an instance was to do the story line which makes perfect sense or Dyanamis which again makes sense because it involves triggers.

    The main world all wide open for players to enter in the drones.In the early days of FFXI it was extremely crowded but there was a choice maybe not the optimum choice but you could move your group ANYWHERE to kill mobs for xp.

    Thing is we are confusing the term "dungeons" as only meaning,a place to kill a Boss at the end of some long tunnel  for best loot,which is NOT accurate at all.You can throw some rare boss spawns in those dungeons but they are not just there waiting for your raid to come along to get some loot.

    Point is the idea is EASILY doable,already done,geesh it was even done in Runes of Magic as well,not always but it was there,open dungeons and not instanced.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 63
    edited September 25
    the second required innovation is for instanced group dungeons as follows. Once again we remove the linear aspect of dungeons and this time we replace it with a radial designed dungeon with random elements that focuses on  division of labor and problem solving to complete the dungeon.

    Example :  The Keymaster

    players come into the dungeon where they battle to a large central room that has two sets of  cage in the middle. The boss of the dungeon ( the keymaster) is visible beyond the two sets of cage. Players are prompted by an npc to enter the first cage but only 2 may enter here and these two face periodic waves of enemies. 

    Around this giant room there are numerous paths and the players who didnt enter the cage have to search these catacombs for the keys to both the first cage which locked after the two went in and the second cage.  There are chests everywhere and opening the chests has multiple effects. 

    opening a chest can: 
     -Yield one of the 4 required keys
    -Cause enemies to spawn in the cage
    -Cause a miniboss to spawn in the cage
    -Cause enemies to spawn on top of you
    -Cause a miniboss to spawn somewhere else
    -Switch you out for someone already in the cage
    -Treasure and items

    additionally there is a challenging but completely optional boss that can be completed by the members outside the cage. There is also an optional collection quest that can be completed during this time. 

    Above the cage there is a huge dagger on a chain that lowers a bit every minute and when the two go in the cage this chain begins lowering meaning the other players only have 60 minutes to find all the keys ( which are randomly located every time) and get to the boss. There is a huge crank outside the cage that players can use to increase the time a bit. 

    Once the keys are found the cages can be opened and the players square off against the boss which is the end of the dungeon. 

    This is a time challenge dungeon and rewards are based on what you were able to accomplish. 

    reward tier copper: Getting the keys and defeating the keymaster (finishing before the timer)
    reward tier silver: Getting the keys, completing the optional quest OR optional boss, and finishing
    reward tier gold:  Getting the keys, completing the optional quest AND optional boss, and finishing 
    reward tier platinum:  doing all that  in 45 minutes. 

    this dungeon model  changes the requirements of dungeons from a dps centric one to a more well rounded character requirement as players will be requires to split up. There are also time constraints and optional parts that can be avoided to provide more challenge for more experienced players. This also opens the door for other forms of gameplay like using stealth to avoid enemies to find the keys faster.  

    this allows players to get in and do the dungeons but also provides incentives to come back and improve. This technique utilizes what i call global mechanics so the dungeons dont devolve to "boss fight dances" . This gives players time to resolve the problem and doesnt solely rely on boss fight reaction speed mechanics typical of todays mmo's.  


     
    Post edited by Rungar on
    We shall know them by their works
  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide Member RarePosts: 1,003
    i like ESO's approach with some small solo dungeons,public dungeons and others meant for grouping.

    i think too many latch on to the whole organized raiding crap but that only really caters to a small fraction of the players.

    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,513
    Rungar said:
    the second required innovation is for instanced group dungeons as follows. Once again we remove the linear aspect of dungeons and this time we replace it with a radial designed dungeon with random elements that focuses on  division of labor and problem solving to complete the dungeon.

    Example :  The Keymaster

    players come into the dungeon where they battle to a large central room that has two sets of  cage in the middle. The boss of the dungeon ( the keymaster) is visible beyond the two sets of cage. Players are prompted by an npc to enter the first cage but only 2 may enter here and these two face periodic waves of enemies. 

    Around this giant room there are numerous paths and the players who didnt enter the cage have to search these catacombs for the keys to both the first cage which locked after the two went in and the second cage.  There are chests everywhere and opening the chests has multiple effects. 

    opening a chest can: 
     -Yield one of the 4 required keys
    -Cause enemies to spawn in the cage
    -Cause a miniboss to spawn in the cage
    -Cause enemies to spawn on top of you
    -Cause a miniboss to spawn somewhere else
    -Switch you out for someone already in the cage
    -Treasure and items

    additionally there is a challenging but completely optional boss that can be completed by the members outside the cage. There is also an optional collection quest that can be completed during this time. 

    Above the cage there is a huge dagger on a chain that lowers a bit every minute and when the two go in the cage this chain begins lowering meaning the other players only have 60 minutes to find all the keys ( which are randomly located every time) and get to the boss. There is a huge crank outside the cage that players can use to increase the time a bit. 

    Once the keys are found the cages can be opened and the players square off against the boss which is the end of the dungeon. 

    This is a time challenge dungeon and rewards are based on what you were able to accomplish. 

    reward tier copper: Getting the keys and defeating the keymaster (finishing before the timer)
    reward tier silver: Getting the keys, completing the optional quest OR optional boss, and finishing
    reward tier gold:  Getting the keys, completing the optional quest AND optional boss, and finishing 
    reward tier platinum:  doing all that  in 45 minutes. 

    this dungeon model  changes the requirements of dungeons from a dps centric one to a more well rounded character requirement as players will be requires to split up. There are also time constraints and optional parts that can be avoided to provide more challenge for more experienced players. This also opens the door for other forms of gameplay like using stealth to avoid enemies to find the keys faster.  

    this allows players to get in and do the dungeons but also provides incentives to come back and improve. This technique utilizes what i call global mechanics so the dungeons dont devolve to "boss fight dances" . This gives players time to resolve the problem and doesnt solely rely on boss fight reaction speed mechanics typical of todays mmo's.  


     
    That's interesting. I don't know if I like that particular example, but I do have an appreciation for the goal you have in mind. 
    I think the thing I don't like about this example is that it feels contrived and gamey. No doubt because you are just coming up with something on the moment. But with a few modifications, it could be pretty good. 

    I do like, very much, the concept of splitting the players up for separate goals that must be done together. 
    It's not a thing for all, or even many, dungeons. Just a few, made to simulate a defensive layout by some evil demi-god or great power. 

    That's my thinking on this specific concept, anyways. 


    Once upon a time....

  • LuftwaffenLuftwaffen Member UncommonPosts: 101
    im sure this aint a popular opinion but I think UO from my experience had best dungeon system and the game is what 22 years old and had open world dungeons ?  yes if a spawn was taken you moved on  and big events like champ spawns were a ton of fun  that usually involved PvP but I love pvp and UOs dungeons made for great pvp action 
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 63
    yes the example is a little gamey but i dont think its a bad thing.  I see your point though. 

    Ive found with modern dungeon design there is no time. Its more like a "get it over with"  rather than an actual experience.  The main idea is to remove the focus of a dungeon from the "boss mechanics" such that the entire dungeon is the mechanic. This allows for time and there are other advantages as well. 

    1) you get to select who does the hard tasks. Perhaps not everyone is up to it and this lets weaker players play with stronger ones where the stronger more experienced ones take the lead role.  

    2) while traditional roles would still exist players would be required to be more self sufficient and well rounded in anticipation of division of labor. Pve builds would better resemble pvp builds. 

    3) random components and variable rewards gives another layer of repeatability beyond the armor set you were looking for.  This time you do that task, next time i do it. Your getting more bang for your buck. 

    4) the focus on dps in games has reached a critical level where its not even really a game anymore. Its a dance off with a boss who does his mechanics and you avoid them until he dies. There is no gameplay value whats so ever.  Theres nothing interesting, nothing to do except avoid red.  The gameplay has to happen in the dungeon with the boss as the highlight and not the other way around.  We want to go the other way. 

    5) the radial design ensures it wont be a sprint to the finish line. You might actually get to type something. You also dont have to remember endless boss mechanics as they would be more subtle since we made the dungeon itself the mechanic. 

    the bottom line is that your spreading the challenge out from the boss encounter to the whole dungeon which means it can still be challenging but slightly less twitchy. 
    AlBQuirky
    We shall know them by their works
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