The thing is, what about any of the previous straws? Such as delays, or the fact they were picking their kingdoms off of outdated/incomplete data? When Dletherus made the argument for repicks after Vye posted the DJ, it seemed to the general public that Dleatherus was mad that the grasslands didn't have stone. No matter how much people want to argue that he made a case in NDA-land or not, doesn't matter, because the general public can't see those arguments. From my impression of how the general public sees it, Bordweall looks like a community of whiny, entitled people, despite what they write or say on stream.
It is interesting that Bordweall would get this special type of attention it's been getting, after being relatively under the radar, but I suppose that's how it goes when you stick your neck out against SBS.
D's attitude towards these red flags only changed when he was somehow affected by a bad decision. He's taken a complete 180 on the topics and issues brought up on these forums despite calling the people here "idiots" and other ad homs.
I feel for the guy, but if he wants to take the moral stand-point, he needs to understand that he himself said that being selfish (which is very arguably immoral) is a sign of good leadership. It can be argued that he may not have agreed with someone asking for a re-pick in his current situation had his circumstances came out acceptable to him, and him alone.
And you're right what about the other agreements SBS promised such as this game supposedly being release within 2/3 years time of their kickstarter? What about the fact he comes with a diplomatic approach to these forums, then goes back to his community and start to backbite? What about the ad homs used against Serp/Caspian directed towards their character? I'm not saying they shouldn't criticize Caspian, but why act high and mighty when you admit blatantly that you would probably just stay quiet had this happened to anyone other than him?
Is he really moral, or is this a cry for favoritism because of the amount of money he's spent? Who knows, seems very wishy-washy and two-faced. His points are valid, but I don't think he can use them as tools for his argument especially since he says a lot of hypocritical things. For sure, he feels jaded, and thinks he deserves a re-pick because it is morally right.
He states that his position is mostly rooted on the concept of morality. He believes he is right due to the breach of trust. But, I think another take away is that he bridges the recent backstab to the chronic behavior of the studio, something he's been suppressing for a while.
Seems like this is the straw that broke the camel's back.
I believe D's "old school" like me, and "when" we come from people were expected to be true to their word, standing by their promises and making renumeration when unable to keep to them.
It's challenging to live in this "age of liars' when most dismiss such behaviors as expected, or even normal, and accuse such as us of being naive, out of touch, or selfish whiners for demanding our rightful due.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
He states that his position is mostly rooted on the concept of morality. He believes he is right due to the breach of trust. But, I think another take away is that he bridges the recent backstab to the chronic behavior of the studio, something he's been suppressing for a while.
Seems like this is the straw that broke the camel's back.
I believe D's "old school" like me, and "when" we come from people were expected to be true to their word, standing by their promises and making renumeration when unable to keep to them.
It's challenging to live in this "age of liars' when most dismiss such behaviors as expected, or even normal, and accuse such as us of being naive or out of touch.
There's nothing better than being old-school and staying true to your word. But I think D's claim to morality is a cop-out. But no doubt CoE has turned into true bandits, and its kinda comedic lol.
There's nothing better than being old-school and staying true to your word. But I think D's claim to morality is a cop-out. But no doubt CoE has turned into true bandits, and its kinda comedic lol.
I agree, Dletherus claiming to wanting a repick after seeing his precious stone come under attack, really takes the wind from the sails in the moral/ethical argument. While it hilarious to see him spin his wheels and burn bridges (via his stream), ultimately it doesn't do his community any justice. If Dleatherus had an issue with placement, they should have brought up the issue prior or a little after the kingdom selection, not a few days prior to the release of maps.
It feels like he's having a temper tantrum and he's taking it out on the community. While the studio is not clean from the countless kerfuffles it made/making, but this one issue? Seems to be a couple monarchs making it an issue, when 90% of the other monarchs were fine with the matter. I won't what we can expect from this very public incident and what it spells for SBS's Reverse Auction?
Looking at it from this way. If D's argument didn't have merit and was just a petty bid, it would be better to ignore and let it die off naturally by simply posting valid counterpoints and being done with it. Seeing as SBS seems to be more aggressive than that, what else would they be reacting to than some serious and valid criticism that threatens more of their present business/behavior if brought any more scrutiny?
He states that his position is mostly rooted on the concept of morality. He believes he is right due to the breach of trust. But, I think another take away is that he bridges the recent backstab to the chronic behavior of the studio, something he's been suppressing for a while.
Seems like this is the straw that broke the camel's back.
I believe D's "old school" like me, and "when" we come from people were expected to be true to their word, standing by their promises and making renumeration when unable to keep to them.
It's challenging to live in this "age of liars' when most dismiss such behaviors as expected, or even normal, and accuse such as us of being naive or out of touch.
There's nothing better than being old-school and staying true to your word. But I think D's claim to morality is a cop-out. But no doubt CoE has turned into true bandits, and its kinda comedic lol.
Imagine you were 2 guys that gave tens of thousands of dollars (I'm going to guess $50k) to a company because of what they promised. Now imagine that you spent years literally telling people to trust Caspien. Then all of a sudden you find out directly that the guy cannot be trusted and that you suddenly feel ashamed for all the countless times you covered for him. That is how these 2 Kings now feel.
Do I feel sorry for them? No, not really, but I am somewhat hopeful that maybe, just maybe the concept of accountability (mentioned repeatedly by them) will be something that spreads. Caspien up to this point has been able to paint critics as "trolls" and "harbingers" who are not really dedicated to the community and do not have a stake in the success of it. Now he has two people who have been about as dedicated as possible (Adam states there are more) pointing out what they see as blatant dishonesty. Well it's about fucking time they woke up from the spell Caspien had cast over them.
Now these guys are not malicious and they want to see the project succeed, so maybe, just maybe when the dust from the DSS settles down they will start to actually influence SBS to act in a more honest and realistic manner. The Ivory Tower has a gaping hole in it. Will they let the light shine in or will it get sealed right back up?
We shall see.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Looking at it from this way. If D's argument didn't have merit and was just a petty bid, it would be better to ignore and let it die off naturally by simply posting valid counterpoints and being done with it. Seeing as SBS seems to be more aggressive than that, what else would they be reacting to than some serious and valid criticism that threatens more of their present business/behavior if brought any more scrutiny?
The thing is, if he has a valid argument, it's locked behind an NDA, in which they can't produce any evidence to suggest they were attempting to make amends to the situation. The only information the public has at this time, is the, purely coincidental, timing of demanding a repick, when Bordweall found out stone would be at a higher rarity. They could have made some valid points to the studio behind the NDA doors, but we have no way of knowing.
When Dleatherus brought up the reason for his silent protest of leaving the CoE Discord, I can commend him for that. Finn made some valid arguments to Caspian, in which Caspian reacted very poorly. Does that mean you go on your streaming service and tell the developers off? I mean, I'm sure it felt good, but it won't likely result in anything positive.
In the end, the developers left the monarch Discord, in which would have given the monarchs a direct line to possibly, POSSIBLY influence things for the better. Do I know that didn't work? Well, look at where we're at.
Looking at it from this way. If D's argument didn't have merit and was just a petty bid, it would be better to ignore and let it die off naturally by simply posting valid counterpoints and being done with it. Seeing as SBS seems to be more aggressive than that, what else would they be reacting to than some serious and valid criticism that threatens more of their present business/behavior if brought any more scrutiny?
The thing is, if he has a valid argument, it's locked behind an NDA, in which they can't produce any evidence to suggest they were attempting to make amends to the situation. The only information the public has at this time, is the, purely coincidental, timing of demanding a repick, when Bordweall found out stone would be at a higher rarity. They could have made some valid points to the studio behind the NDA doors, but we have no way of knowing.
When Dleatherus brought up the reason for his silent protest of leaving the CoE Discord, I can commend him for that. Finn made some valid arguments to Caspian, in which Caspian reacted very poorly. Does that mean you go on your streaming service and tell the developers off? I mean, I'm sure it felt good, but it won't likely result in anything positive.
In the end, the developers left the monarch Discord, in which would have given the monarchs a direct line to possibly, POSSIBLY influence things for the better. Do I know that didn't work? Well, look at where we're at.
Yet the logic of their argument is quite sound:
We agreed to pick because you listed (by line item) items that made us feel picking was ok. At least 2 of those line items did not happen
I think the key part was that the Duke picks would not be delayed and that all they were waiting on was a tool to view the maps. Not only were the Duke picks delayed by 4 months but the maps and data behind them changed massively. So much that Caspien has the old ones behind NDA because they represent an Elyria that never existed. If that data never existed then why would picks based on that old data still be valid?
The thing is, I could almost guarantee that if Caspien went to these guys and said “You have valid points and I wish we could repick but I believe it will cause massive drama and we just can not afford that right now. We need to get positive momentum for the sale or none of the picks will matter. I am sorry but I do not see any other way and hope you will work with us”, they would have acquiesced and carried on as good soldiers for the cause. But that didn’t happen. Caspien said he would address the issue but didn’t, he snuck out of the Discord. Then Serpentius started suggesting that these two Kings and their cohorts (haha) were lying or telling half truths and that screenshots posted may have been fake...
Thats how you turn your biggest fans into very offended customers...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Aside from the grievances from the two whales, the absolute dog shit handling of the situation is a testament to the one way relationship these guys have with SBS.
I think the key part was that the Duke picks would not be delayed and that all they were waiting on was a tool to view the maps. Not only were the Duke picks delayed by 4 months but the maps and data behind them changed massively. So much that Caspien has the old ones behind NDA because they represent an Elyria that never existed. If that data never existed then why would picks based on that old data still be valid?
The thing is, I could almost guarantee that if Caspien went to these guys and said “You have valid points and I wish we could repick but I believe it will cause massive drama and we just can not afford that right now. We need to get positive momentum for the sale or none of the picks will matter. I am sorry but I do not see any other way and hope you will work with us”, they would have acquiesced and carried on as good soldiers for the cause. But that didn’t happen. Caspien said he would address the issue but didn’t, he snuck out of the Discord. Then Serpentius started suggesting that these two Kings and their cohorts (haha) were lying or telling half truths and that screenshots posted may have been fake...
Thats how you turn your biggest fans into very offended customers...
I understand, but then you run into the issue: you had four months, why are we hearing about this now? I'm not saying the purpose for the push for repicks is 100% sleazy reasons, but it does paint a very odd light that two monarchs push for repicks, right after the Vye DJ. Is it shitty we haven't seen Caspian address this seemingly "huge" issue? Absolutely, these are two of the studios biggest whales in the community. I believe if Dleatherus gave a no-frills statement/stream about what the issue was and how it could be remedied, maybe the pro-repick monarchs might've heard something back. Instead, the stream went everywhere on the emotional spectrum, that frankly it was borderline cringe-worthy.
I don't know. Maybe something positive will come from this, but I don't think it will.
*Edit: We had a four month delay, why wasn't this issue brought up way back when?*
Is demanding a repick even actually "sleazy" at all, or reasonable given that the time at which the picks were made meant that it was based on now false information, and consequently a repick would actually be fair?
Perhaps not painting things as a flag, or not raising false flags, is also a thing to be considered.
Separately, the resource problem seems to be one that's functionally a fault of SBS baking resources as a fixed element to the environment any ways. They could have left that as a dynamic layer that could get re-seeded on some sort of schedule so that biomes would experience a degree of regular variance and drift (not dramatically, but enough so that it doesn't become a rote element).
Point of example being the way we'd made the resource map in Firefall. Each zone of the map had tables for possible resources that could spawn in that region, and we would cycle the resource map regularly so that major nodes wouldn't stay in a single spot and people would regularly have to prospect and find the right place to thump/mine.
Similar thing could have, and probably should have, been done here. Biomes having a resource table, and SBS just having it re-seed things every so often (save for potential landmark or rare biome elements).
Adam is actually very smart to sort of ween off the thread. Dleatherus seems to be the one getting bagged on while Adam simply got off the ride before it goes off the cliff.
Adam is actually very smart to sort of ween off the thread. Dleatherus seems to be the one getting bagged on while Adam simply got off the ride before it goes off the cliff.
Yeah, you noticed that too? It was a losing battle and Dleatherus keep trying to rally the people. Sadly, that didn't work out so well for Louis XVI.
I'd be interested to see what happens in this thread.
Lil D also goes on to restate concerns that Slapshot has said here such as the missed deadlines and the time schedule being skewed.
...I found his problem.
If you keep on trying and improving yourself, one day you might be able to find the rest of his problems that OrangeBoy has so helpfully listed in his post.
If you keep on trying and improving yourself, one day you might be able to find the rest of his problems that OrangeBoy has so helpfully listed in his post.
....nice try but I did listen to stream. Well, of course not in full length because it was unbearably stupid but I gave it good 15 mins.
Lil D also goes on to restate concerns that Slapshot has said here such as the missed deadlines and the time schedule being skewed.
...I found his problem.
That is unfortunately whole community problem, when developerwannabies at SBS treat deadlines like piece of toilet paper - nice to have it, yet you wipe yer ass with t and throw it away, never to be seen again.
DerryFH said: That is unfortunately whole community problem, when developerwannabies at SBS treat deadlines like piece of toilet paper - nice to have it, yet you wipe yer ass with t and throw it away, never to be seen again.
...here is the thing:
1) learn to code 2) join dev studio or start coding on your own 3) work until you are some lead position 4) come back and tell us how successfull you are at meeting deadlines
Not all deadlines are like: If I can flip 5 burgers in 1 minute, in 10 minutes I will flip 50 burgers...
DerryFH said: That is unfortunately whole community problem, when developerwannabies at SBS treat deadlines like piece of toilet paper - nice to have it, yet you wipe yer ass with t and throw it away, never to be seen again.
...here is the thing:
1) learn to code 2) join dev studio or start coding on your own 3) work until you are some lead position 4) come back and tell us how successfull you are at meeting deadlines
Not all deadlines are like: If I can flip 5 burgers in 1 minute, in 10 minutes I will flip 50 burgers...
You have just missed badly.
I am in IT industry for over two decades now, last 13 years in software development.
I am on a lead position, no, I am not a developer - just merely automation test lead with release manager responsibilities. But that probably means nothing to you.
Im my career I have planned roadmaps, run scrum teams, countless backlog sessions, retros, standups, scheduled releases with teams across three continents in five time zones. Worked as delivery manager on a 24/7 shifts while running critical systems upgrade for huge financial organisation.
Yes, we did have delays. Yes, we did have fuckups. Yes, we did work overtime from time to time and frequently could propel our aircon fan with WTF per hour ratio.
So do not insult me with your BS. Try to understand that some people fucking know how software development works.
From just my experience not a single fucking time any company I worked with during last 20+ years had such ignorant approach to deliveries as SBS have.
Of course plans get scrapped, whole multi million projects get delayed.
Fuck I even was engaged in an audit process for a gov project that was mismanaged to the point that was deemed FUBAR. But even they tried to deliver on promises, just feature creep and resource management went out of control.
For fucks sake, I have met people that were not even half-professionals but they understood that if you commit to something - you deliver, or explain in details why you did not deliver, or provide information that you have delivered %% of a whole and require XX amount of time to complete your commitment.
No company I have worked with was that delusional to have development running for 3 years, consume millions of dollars and produce close to nothing and even not provide evidence that they fuckin' tried.
If you keep on trying and improving yourself, one day you might be able to find the rest of his problems that OrangeBoy has so helpfully listed in his post.
....nice try but I did listen to stream. Well, of course not in full length because it was unbearably stupid but I gave it good 15 mins.
I warned you about the gas mask in the first 10 minutes of the stream. By the way, is your soul as empty as your profile pic?
Comments
I feel for the guy, but if he wants to take the moral stand-point, he needs to understand that he himself said that being selfish (which is very arguably immoral) is a sign of good leadership. It can be argued that he may not have agreed with someone asking for a re-pick in his current situation had his circumstances came out acceptable to him, and him alone.
And you're right what about the other agreements SBS promised such as this game supposedly being release within 2/3 years time of their kickstarter? What about the fact he comes with a diplomatic approach to these forums, then goes back to his community and start to backbite? What about the ad homs used against Serp/Caspian directed towards their character? I'm not saying they shouldn't criticize Caspian, but why act high and mighty when you admit blatantly that you would probably just stay quiet had this happened to anyone other than him?
Is he really moral, or is this a cry for favoritism because of the amount of money he's spent? Who knows, seems very wishy-washy and two-faced. His points are valid, but I don't think he can use them as tools for his argument especially since he says a lot of hypocritical things. For sure, he feels jaded, and thinks he deserves a re-pick because it is morally right.
It's challenging to live in this "age of liars' when most dismiss such behaviors as expected, or even normal, and accuse such as us of being naive, out of touch, or selfish whiners for demanding our rightful due.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It feels like he's having a temper tantrum and he's taking it out on the community. While the studio is not clean from the countless kerfuffles it made/making, but this one issue? Seems to be a couple monarchs making it an issue, when 90% of the other monarchs were fine with the matter. I won't what we can expect from this very public incident and what it spells for SBS's Reverse Auction?
Do I feel sorry for them? No, not really, but I am somewhat hopeful that maybe, just maybe the concept of accountability (mentioned repeatedly by them) will be something that spreads. Caspien up to this point has been able to paint critics as "trolls" and "harbingers" who are not really dedicated to the community and do not have a stake in the success of it. Now he has two people who have been about as dedicated as possible (Adam states there are more) pointing out what they see as blatant dishonesty. Well it's about fucking time they woke up from the spell Caspien had cast over them.
Now these guys are not malicious and they want to see the project succeed, so maybe, just maybe when the dust from the DSS settles down they will start to actually influence SBS to act in a more honest and realistic manner. The Ivory Tower has a gaping hole in it. Will they let the light shine in or will it get sealed right back up?
We shall see.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
When Dleatherus brought up the reason for his silent protest of leaving the CoE Discord, I can commend him for that. Finn made some valid arguments to Caspian, in which Caspian reacted very poorly. Does that mean you go on your streaming service and tell the developers off? I mean, I'm sure it felt good, but it won't likely result in anything positive.
In the end, the developers left the monarch Discord, in which would have given the monarchs a direct line to possibly, POSSIBLY influence things for the better. Do I know that didn't work? Well, look at where we're at.
We agreed to pick because you listed (by line item) items that made us feel picking was ok.
At least 2 of those line items did not happen
I think the key part was that the Duke picks would not be delayed and that all they were waiting on was a tool to view the maps. Not only were the Duke picks delayed by 4 months but the maps and data behind them changed massively. So much that Caspien has the old ones behind NDA because they represent an Elyria that never existed. If that data never existed then why would picks based on that old data still be valid?
The thing is, I could almost guarantee that if Caspien went to these guys and said “You have valid points and I wish we could repick but I believe it will cause massive drama and we just can not afford that right now. We need to get positive momentum for the sale or none of the picks will matter. I am sorry but I do not see any other way and hope you will work with us”, they would have acquiesced and carried on as good soldiers for the cause. But that didn’t happen. Caspien said he would address the issue but didn’t, he snuck out of the Discord. Then Serpentius started suggesting that these two Kings and their cohorts (haha) were lying or telling half truths and that screenshots posted may have been fake...
Thats how you turn your biggest fans into very offended customers...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Maybe they trusted that Caspien would make good on his word in some way?
These guys have been trained by Caspien to keep all disagreements private because it can hurt the perception of the company and game.
I just hope that the hole in the Ivory Tower stays open and they start to hold SBS accountable for doing what they say they will do.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'd be interested to hear your opinion on this thread.
Perhaps not painting things as a flag, or not raising false flags, is also a thing to be considered.
Separately, the resource problem seems to be one that's functionally a fault of SBS baking resources as a fixed element to the environment any ways. They could have left that as a dynamic layer that could get re-seeded on some sort of schedule so that biomes would experience a degree of regular variance and drift (not dramatically, but enough so that it doesn't become a rote element).
Point of example being the way we'd made the resource map in Firefall. Each zone of the map had tables for possible resources that could spawn in that region, and we would cycle the resource map regularly so that major nodes wouldn't stay in a single spot and people would regularly have to prospect and find the right place to thump/mine.
Similar thing could have, and probably should have, been done here. Biomes having a resource table, and SBS just having it re-seed things every so often (save for potential landmark or rare biome elements).
I'd be interested to see what happens in this thread.
1) learn to code
2) join dev studio or start coding on your own
3) work until you are some lead position
4) come back and tell us how successfull you are at meeting deadlines
Not all deadlines are like: If I can flip 5 burgers in 1 minute, in 10 minutes I will flip 50 burgers...
I am in IT industry for over two decades now, last 13 years in software development.
I am on a lead position, no, I am not a developer - just merely automation test lead with release manager responsibilities. But that probably means nothing to you.
Im my career I have planned roadmaps, run scrum teams, countless backlog sessions, retros, standups, scheduled releases with teams across three continents in five time zones.
Worked as delivery manager on a 24/7 shifts while running critical systems upgrade for huge financial organisation.
Yes, we did have delays.
Yes, we did have fuckups.
Yes, we did work overtime from time to time and frequently could propel our aircon fan with WTF per hour ratio.
So do not insult me with your BS.
Try to understand that some people fucking know how software development works.
From just my experience not a single fucking time any company I worked with during last 20+ years had such ignorant approach to deliveries as SBS have.
Of course plans get scrapped, whole multi million projects get delayed.
Fuck I even was engaged in an audit process for a gov project that was mismanaged to the point that was deemed FUBAR. But even they tried to deliver on promises, just feature creep and resource management went out of control.
For fucks sake, I have met people that were not even half-professionals but they understood that if you commit to something - you deliver, or explain in details why you did not deliver, or provide information that you have delivered %% of a whole and require XX amount of time to complete your commitment.
No company I have worked with was that delusional to have development running for 3 years, consume millions of dollars and produce close to nothing and even not provide evidence that they fuckin' tried.
No please LOL this post, then GTFO.