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Some forced paid expansions are prime examples of pay to win mechanics

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Comments

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,062
    edited August 20


    An even better example is expansions compared to a flat subscription rate. Many in my previous thread brought up everyone pays 15 dollars and is equal. Except...when paid expansions are released. In GW2, the elite specs (okay this may be out of date, but when I played it was how it was) were/are vastly better than the vanilla specs. Though...mostly everyone is equal so not the best example here. ESO goes along the same way of GW2 except better because the subscription adds most of the DLC content where as GW2 there is no sub to get "free" stuff. 




    Of all the games I've played, GW2 is really the only one that used expansions as P2W. In every other game the expansion takes you to higher levels where you don't compete directly with non-expansion players, so there's no power advantage and no P2W.

    In GW2 someone with vanilla competes head to head in the same PvP and PvE events as the people who have HoT and PoF. You do half their damage, have inferior support and healing, and are much less survivable but everyone is level 80 so you don't even get a bolster in WvW to make up for your massive disadvantage. 

    Most people dont' have problem with paying money.  People have problem with paying too much money.

    The argument is never about the payment model, it is the detail of payment model.  Would you rather pay 60$ for an expansion which last 2 years or pay 15$ a month for 2 years.

    It also varies person to person.  There are people who simply refuse to pay any money at all, so he'll like games which are complete free(maybe the OP is that kind of person).
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Limnic said:
    Health insurance is pay to win.
    Only if keeping your sub is 'winning'.  :D
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member UncommonPosts: 1,411
    AAAMEOW said:

    In fact, you can't progress in WoW without the latest expansion and in PvP you will be slaughtered by those with the expansion. In the other thread people said everyone pays equal amount so its fair...up till you are forced to pay 40 dollars (or more for a collector's edition) for an expansion  and the person who has the expansion will literally win...the ultimate definition of pay to win. They paid an expansion and now win against those without the expansion. You have no choice but to buy that expansion.





    I dont' think the problem is about pay to win...

    The problem is "you pay and still not win".

    I played games where I spent 100$ per month and I still didn't win...
    Yea.  There are games where people pay thousands and still don't win, because if the developers know what they're doing (and most of them do these days), there'll be no upper limit to how much one can pay to win.  If a game only needs $100 per month to win, then the developers are doing something horribly wrong because that means they're missing out on those whales that would have paid them thousands AND turning off a lot of the smaller paying consumers too since $100 a month still looks (and really, actually IS) bad to most people.

    I know some games where the person could have literally purchased several airplanes for the amount of money they spent on the game.  That one $20,000 per month whale was worth 200 $100 per month customers.
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,646
    edited August 20
    Dude is WTF farming....has more WTF's than Agrees. 
    moshraMisterZebubNorseGodCryomatrix
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Member RarePosts: 1,485
    OP, suggestion for your next post:
    ”Since we have to pay for the electricity/internet, all mmos are P2W”
    Just in case you’re struggling to follow on this absurdity.
  • UtinniUtinni Member RarePosts: 917
    So easy to get these folks riled up. Next post about female leads in video games please!
    UngoodSovrathCryomatrix
  • WalkinGlennWalkinGlenn Member UncommonPosts: 290
    edited August 20
    Rent and having a mortgage is pay to win. I mean, if you dont pay for a place to stay you're out on the street and losing at life. Life is so ptw. 
  • ziabatsuziabatsu Member UncommonPosts: 107
    Via this retarded logic, even single player sequels you play are "pay to win". Mega Man 2+, Mario 2+ etc are all pay to win games because you have to buy the game to expand content! That question wasn't thought provoking. It was stupid.; and if your teacher ever said there's no such thing as a stupid question, she was stupid too. 
    Cryomatrix
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,688
    Excellent trolling. Have another LOL for the collection :wink:

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • xeraxxerax Member UncommonPosts: 73
    edited August 20
    I really cant see this OP.

    If you asking for free expansions paid for by a cash shop are you planning to spend money in that cash shop to cover the development costs or are you just expecting others to spend money in the cash shop and pay for your gaming?


  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 2,929
    edited August 20
    Part two of my pay to win topic. Lets ignore the other thread and leave the discussion there whether pay to play MMOs are pay to win or not. Now "some" is in the thread title, because mostly MMOs do expansions a lot better than they used to. The best examples of forced expansions that go into pay to win territory is LOTRO, WoW and FFXIV. But I'm mostly gonna talk about WoW since most experience with that.

    An even better example is expansions compared to a flat subscription rate. Many in my previous thread brought up everyone pays 15 dollars and is equal. Except...when paid expansions are released. In GW2, the elite specs (okay this may be out of date, but when I played it was how it was) were/are vastly better than the vanilla specs. Though...mostly everyone is equal so not the best example here. ESO goes along the same way of GW2 except better because the subscription adds most of the DLC content where as GW2 there is no sub to get "free" stuff. 

    EVE Online and Black Desert Online are the two best expansion adding MMOs. Expansions are free...nothing else needs to be said about this one, great business model and the best subscription (for EVE) model that exists of any MMO with a sub. And BDO of course has no forced sub, but there is also no expansions one must buy.

    So you can see, actually most expansions these days are done really well and not much to complain about. This thread isn't about them though. We are going to look at WoW as a prime example. FFXIV/LOTRO are the same, but I don't play them so won't comment much on it.

    If you think a subscription wasn't pay to win, that can be easy to argue...what can't be is when WoW (or FFXIV/LOTRO but I have more experience with WOW) releases an expansion and even if you pay 15 dollars a month, you are NOT equal to those who paid for the expansion.

    In fact, you can't progress in WoW without the latest expansion and in PvP you will be slaughtered by those with the expansion. In the other thread people said everyone pays equal amount so its fair...up till you are forced to pay 40 dollars (or more for a collector's edition) for an expansion  and the person who has the expansion will literally win...the ultimate definition of pay to win. They paid an expansion and now win against those without the expansion. You have no choice but to buy that expansion.

    I'll bring up wiki as a source, but yeah I know people are gonna go "lol wiki lol" but it is an example of what most people find to be the most common definition.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

    And key quote from there...
    " In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers."

    So even if you pay 15 dollars like EVERYONE else who plays WoW, if someone pays an additional 40 dollars minimum for an expansion will have a severe gameplay advantage over the non-paying expansion players even if they are paying for a sub they'll lose in PvP without even standing a tiny percent of a chance.

    Its good many MMOs are doing expansions vastly better these days. EVE has always been the best for subscription MMOs. And many MMOs are making players who don't have an expansion still mostly equal (but missing content) compared to those who paid for an expansion. 

    And like I ended my other topic...these MMOs with forced highly advantage expansions compared to those who don't have that expansion, they are dying out to those MMOs who treat everyone mostly equal. The MMO industry is moving in a great direction in regards to expansions (many even just being free expansions).

    It is in fact a tiny sliver of MMOs left with outdated expansion models but its important to bring it up because they are still popular.




    Sorry no. In GW2 you can be very competitive with just the Basic elites. You do not need the the expansions to be competitive. In this way you are just plain wrong. One just has to KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE PROFESSION rather than just spamming 1. 

    How else are the developers supposed to get paid? Expansions are quite a bit of work and if it is done right, it really helps the story along and is more fun to play.

    Caffynated

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,531
    Haha, people haggling over whether getting milked one way is better than the other. Moo moo cow people.
    Azaron_NightbladeUngoodOG_Zorvan
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

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  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,891
    OP calls all those reactions "Forced WTFs".  :D :D :D
    Torval
    Raging Demons for all flowchart "Kens". This is a metaphor.
  • newbismxnewbismx Member UncommonPosts: 142
    We really do become collectively less intelligent as a species with every passing day. 


    TorvalSteelhelm
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,631
    Troll post with 2 parts. Pretty cool.
    Torval
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 515
    botrytis said:
    Part two of my pay to win topic. Lets ignore the other thread and leave the discussion there whether pay to play MMOs are pay to win or not. Now "some" is in the thread title, because mostly MMOs do expansions a lot better than they used to. The best examples of forced expansions that go into pay to win territory is LOTRO, WoW and FFXIV. But I'm mostly gonna talk about WoW since most experience with that.

    An even better example is expansions compared to a flat subscription rate. Many in my previous thread brought up everyone pays 15 dollars and is equal. Except...when paid expansions are released. In GW2, the elite specs (okay this may be out of date, but when I played it was how it was) were/are vastly better than the vanilla specs. Though...mostly everyone is equal so not the best example here. ESO goes along the same way of GW2 except better because the subscription adds most of the DLC content where as GW2 there is no sub to get "free" stuff. 

    EVE Online and Black Desert Online are the two best expansion adding MMOs. Expansions are free...nothing else needs to be said about this one, great business model and the best subscription (for EVE) model that exists of any MMO with a sub. And BDO of course has no forced sub, but there is also no expansions one must buy.

    So you can see, actually most expansions these days are done really well and not much to complain about. This thread isn't about them though. We are going to look at WoW as a prime example. FFXIV/LOTRO are the same, but I don't play them so won't comment much on it.

    If you think a subscription wasn't pay to win, that can be easy to argue...what can't be is when WoW (or FFXIV/LOTRO but I have more experience with WOW) releases an expansion and even if you pay 15 dollars a month, you are NOT equal to those who paid for the expansion.

    In fact, you can't progress in WoW without the latest expansion and in PvP you will be slaughtered by those with the expansion. In the other thread people said everyone pays equal amount so its fair...up till you are forced to pay 40 dollars (or more for a collector's edition) for an expansion  and the person who has the expansion will literally win...the ultimate definition of pay to win. They paid an expansion and now win against those without the expansion. You have no choice but to buy that expansion.

    I'll bring up wiki as a source, but yeah I know people are gonna go "lol wiki lol" but it is an example of what most people find to be the most common definition.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

    And key quote from there...
    " In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers."

    So even if you pay 15 dollars like EVERYONE else who plays WoW, if someone pays an additional 40 dollars minimum for an expansion will have a severe gameplay advantage over the non-paying expansion players even if they are paying for a sub they'll lose in PvP without even standing a tiny percent of a chance.

    Its good many MMOs are doing expansions vastly better these days. EVE has always been the best for subscription MMOs. And many MMOs are making players who don't have an expansion still mostly equal (but missing content) compared to those who paid for an expansion. 

    And like I ended my other topic...these MMOs with forced highly advantage expansions compared to those who don't have that expansion, they are dying out to those MMOs who treat everyone mostly equal. The MMO industry is moving in a great direction in regards to expansions (many even just being free expansions).

    It is in fact a tiny sliver of MMOs left with outdated expansion models but its important to bring it up because they are still popular.




    Sorry no. In GW2 you can be very competitive with just the Basic elites. You do not need the the expansions to be competitive. In this way you are just plain wrong. One just has to KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE PROFESSION rather than just spamming 1. 

    How else are the developers supposed to get paid? Expansions are quite a bit of work and if it is done right, it really helps the story along and is more fun to play.

    Wat? Show me your DPS parse with a vanilla spec that comes even remotely close to a parse from an elite spec. Show me someone who exclusively plays vanilla specs past gold or platinum in sPvP. They don't exist, and even when one crops up in the competitive scene by accident the devs hammer it into the ground as quickly as possible. 
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,999
    OG_Zorvan said:
    These threads just make me hope all mmos go back to mandatory subs with expansions.
    Paying $180 a year subs plus expansions to play a game with 1999 graphics...Yeah those were the days....
  • adam_noxadam_nox Member UncommonPosts: 2,119
    OG_Zorvan said:
    These threads just make me hope all mmos go back to mandatory subs with expansions.
    Paying $180 a year subs plus expansions to play a game with 1999 graphics...Yeah those were the days....
    It was though.
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