Subscription only MMOs are pay to win and its good they mostly died out

goboygo · August 2019

Ungood said:

I found it hilarious that not one single person could logically and rationally refute the OP.

Everyone crying about reports, and posting insulting images and what have you.. no one stepped up to plate to prove them wrong.

Fun thread..

You can often tell by someones starting position that there is no hope, they are simply so far off the mark there is no common ground to start with so you don't even try, you just drop a comment or two and move on. Its really not that hard to figure this one out......

Vrika · August 2019

Aethaeryn said:

Akulas said:

That's like saying everything is P2W because you have to pay for it.

I guess for me they are pay to lose since I only finish about 15% of games

How many of those 15% would you have finished if you hadn't paid anything? All your successes are obviously a result of your horrible P2W tactics of buying a game to play, and a device to play with, and electricity, and even the chair you're sitting on must have been bought by someone.

All the while true gamers who follow the OPs doctrine are in a cave somewhere and unable to win anything.

Ungood · August 2019

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing

Oh the black market account sales? LOL, they were not called P2W.. ever.

Linif · August 2019

Situations P2W is applicable: Paying money for things not easily, or at all, obtainable through the normal game means so you have such an advantage over players who don't, that it's basically a guaranteed win.

You've applied P2W too early in the formula, you can't have P2W if you can't play the game. Paying for access is not paying to win. Paying for anything that gives you a clear and irrefutable advantage once you have access to the game would be P2W. Let's say FF14 had a payment option to purchase a weapon and armor that gave you the best stats in PvP, which would either be unobtainable or require a steep grind to obtain under normal means. This would be P2W.

Ungood · August 2019

rojoArcueid said:

Ungood said:

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

P2W is a curse for mmos. The best example i can give you is Metin2. Here are a few things you can do with real money in that game.

- 100% chance gear upgrade success (you hit max upgrade without losing items)
- Max critical hit chance against any particular class (one skill insta-kills that class in PvP)
- Max damage defense against any particular class (that class will miss all attacks against you in PvP)
- Reach max level on all your skills (training class skills is RNG, cash shop guarantees success, impossible to upgrade to max without real money so you do less damage).

The game has 3 faction open world PvP. I'll never forget a single polish healer who took the 2 opposing factions by himself and owned them all over and over until they gave up, hundreds of people dead on the floor. The very definition of P2W.

I could not find much about that game, other than is was made and marketed in Korea.

But, since I don't give enough of a shit to split hairs over Bullshilt like other people on this forums, let's just go with this being correct. Well, being able to buy an Ability to one Shot Kill Someone, You know.. that would be the definition of P2W.

Too bad, we didn't keep to mean shit like that.. for when we needed it.. and instead it became used to mean "OMG they have cosmetic in the store that I want but won't spend money on"

See, this is not me your fighting against.. what you are dealing with your own faulty use of the term to bring us to it being "OMG I am expected to pay money at all?!?!?!?!?!?!? P2W"

I kept fighting to keep the term to mean real shit..

behold your legacy.. ain't it great?

Hariken · August 2019

I look at it like this. WOW and FFXIV is worse not because of the sub. fee but because along with that they both have cash shops in them. Sub. games didn't need cash shops but when these big companies smell all the extra money they can suck out of the players they leaped on it. To me, if you are going to have a cash shop then you need a F2P or B2P model along with it. If I could just buy either game without paying a sub.the fee I would in a heartbeat.

rojoArcueid · August 2019

Ungood said:

rojoArcueid said:

P2W is a curse for mmos. The best example i can give you is Metin2. Here are a few things you can do with real money in that game.

- 100% chance gear upgrade success (you hit max upgrade without losing items)
- Max critical hit chance against any particular class (one skill insta-kills that class in PvP)
- Max damage defense against any particular class (that class will miss all attacks against you in PvP)
- Reach max level on all your skills (training class skills is RNG, cash shop guarantees success, impossible to upgrade to max without real money so you do less damage).

The game has 3 faction open world PvP. I'll never forget a single polish healer who took the 2 opposing factions by himself and owned them all over and over until they gave up, hundreds of people dead on the floor. The very definition of P2W.

I could not find much about that game, other than is was made and marketed in Korea.

But, since I don't give enough of a shit to split hairs over Bullshilt like other people on this forums, let's just go with this being correct. Well, being able to buy an Ability to one Shot Kill Someone, You know.. that would be the definition of P2W.

Too bad, we didn't keep to mean shit like that.. for when we needed it.. and instead it became used to mean "OMG they have cosmetic in the store that I want but won't spend money on"

See, this is not me your fighting against.. what you are dealing with your own faulty use of the term to bring us to it being "OMG I am expected to pay money at all?!?!?!?!?!?!? P2W"

I kept fighting to keep the term to mean real shit..

behold your legacy.. ain't it great?

That game released in korea in 2004. It got me full into mmorpgs in 2006 on EU servers then i moved to the official American servers a year later and played there for a few years until the P2W things i mentioned drove me away.

I don't like either when the term is misused to make a point knowing there is crap like this actually going on in the market.

Utinni · August 2019

Linif said:

Situations P2W is applicable: Paying money for things not easily, or at all, obtainable through the normal game means so you have such an advantage over players who don't, that it's basically a guaranteed win.

You've applied P2W too early in the formula, you can't have P2W if you can't play the game. Paying for access is not paying to win. Paying for anything that gives you a clear and irrefutable advantage once you have access to the game would be P2W. Let's say FF14 had a payment option to purchase a weapon and armor that gave you the best stats in PvP, which would either be unobtainable or require a steep grind to obtain under normal means. This would be P2W.

FF14 has a sub and a cash shop. It's one of the most P2W MMOs around.

Ungood · August 2019

rojoArcueid said:

Ungood said:

rojoArcueid said:

P2W is a curse for mmos. The best example i can give you is Metin2. Here are a few things you can do with real money in that game.

- 100% chance gear upgrade success (you hit max upgrade without losing items)
- Max critical hit chance against any particular class (one skill insta-kills that class in PvP)
- Max damage defense against any particular class (that class will miss all attacks against you in PvP)
- Reach max level on all your skills (training class skills is RNG, cash shop guarantees success, impossible to upgrade to max without real money so you do less damage).

The game has 3 faction open world PvP. I'll never forget a single polish healer who took the 2 opposing factions by himself and owned them all over and over until they gave up, hundreds of people dead on the floor. The very definition of P2W.

I could not find much about that game, other than is was made and marketed in Korea.

But, since I don't give enough of a shit to split hairs over Bullshilt like other people on this forums, let's just go with this being correct. Well, being able to buy an Ability to one Shot Kill Someone, You know.. that would be the definition of P2W.

Too bad, we didn't keep to mean shit like that.. for when we needed it.. and instead it became used to mean "OMG they have cosmetic in the store that I want but won't spend money on"

See, this is not me your fighting against.. what you are dealing with your own faulty use of the term to bring us to it being "OMG I am expected to pay money at all?!?!?!?!?!?!? P2W"

I kept fighting to keep the term to mean real shit..

behold your legacy.. ain't it great?

That game released in korea in 2004. It got me full into mmorpgs in 2006 on EU servers then i moved to the official American servers a year later and played there for a few years until the P2W things i mentioned drove me away.

I don't like either when the term is misused to make a point knowing there is crap like this actually going on in the market.

I totally agree.. but if we don't use the term correctly, and toss it out to anytime money is involved at all.. how do we distinguish the real deal from fiction?

Makes the whole term so worthless that they may as well call a Sub P2W at this point..

rpmcmurphy · August 2019

Utinni said:

Linif said:

Situations P2W is applicable: Paying money for things not easily, or at all, obtainable through the normal game means so you have such an advantage over players who don't, that it's basically a guaranteed win.

You've applied P2W too early in the formula, you can't have P2W if you can't play the game. Paying for access is not paying to win. Paying for anything that gives you a clear and irrefutable advantage once you have access to the game would be P2W. Let's say FF14 had a payment option to purchase a weapon and armor that gave you the best stats in PvP, which would either be unobtainable or require a steep grind to obtain under normal means. This would be P2W.

FF14 has a sub and a cash shop. It's one of the most P2W MMOs around.

Out of curiousity,what do they sell in the cash shop that qualifies as P2W?

Scorchien · August 2019

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing

Oh the black market account sales? LOL, they were not called P2W.. ever.

The certainly were , i was there , and thats what we called them ..

dreamer05 · August 2019

No. Just no. Every subscriber has access to the same gameplay.

rojoArcueid · August 2019

so following the OP's logic if i go to GameStop and buy the next call of duty game on PS5 but i don't actually own a PS5 then it is P2W because i need to pay for the PS5 in order to win in the game?

/Ultra Combo Facepalm

Ungood · August 2019

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing

Oh the black market account sales? LOL, they were not called P2W.. ever.

The certainly were , i was there , and thats what we called them ..

So was I.. and no we didn't.

Vermillion_Raventhal · August 2019

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

So are you saying you paying real money to kill the person instantly or you are paying for an advantage over people? Bad or dramatic names has nothing to do with it.

Obvious, that P2W are for ingame advantages for money. Pay to Win is just a bad term just like MMO is a bad term. Shit happens. We aren't scientist naming animals in Latin.

I don't know where or when P2W came from. It's irrelevant and nor does it make you edgy or right if you do. P2W in MMORPG is using cash for an advantage in game direct or indirect. Crying over word usage decade or more in is silly.

Ozmodan · August 2019

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing

Gear was NOT a big deal in UO until way after that. Age of Shadows in 2003 introduced where gear could really matter. Before that it was far more skill based how good you were.

As to this guys opinion on MMO's rather laughable if you ask me.

Scorchien · August 2019

Ozmodan said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing

Gear was NOT a big deal in UO until way after that. Age of Shadows in 2003 introduced where gear could really matter. Before that it was far more skill based how good you were.

As to this guys opinion on MMO's rather laughable if you ask me.

Gear absolutley mattered made a big difference ..

for ex...

A Surpremely Accurate Indestrucible Bow of Vanquishing ... Was a highly coveted weapon

that gave + 9 to Damage

+ 25 Tactics

and highly durable ..

Would make a world of differnce in PVE or PVP

Now add Slayer mod to it like Silver Supremely Accurate Indestructible Bow of Vanquishing and its an Undead wrecking machine ..

And UO is a lvl based game like any other IMO , ive been playing all these 22 years , i used to think in 98 -99 while some were playing EQ ..

Bahh F that lvl based game i play a skill based game UO ... its false ..

EVery skill levle based .. get to 70 bow unlock skill and higher dam

get to 80 Bow unlock skill and higher damage

get to 90 bow unlock skill and higher dam

etc.. and so on ..Its just disguised better , but you earn XP using the weapon to unlock the next Level of the weapon ..

Now there is no doubt , you will know it when you cross a skilled players path but that is something different..

WoeToTheVanquished · August 2019

or you could have the worst of all worlds: EVE Online, with a monthly subscription and the epitome of p2w cash shop -- with hearsay and rumours that company employees will (secretively) attack in-game structures and interfere with politics to force a healthier ISK turnover on cash shop purchases.

Scorchien · August 2019

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing

Oh the black market account sales? LOL, they were not called P2W.. ever.

The certainly were , i was there , and thats what we called them ..

So was I.. and no we didn't.

Thats odd , cause in this recent thread , you said ..

"Anyway.. after my time in Full Loot Open World PvP MUDs, I was glad to move on to PvE only games, and not deal with that level of douchebaggery, which might be why I never got involved with UO."

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481872/have-you-murdered-another-player-in-a-mmorpg/p3

Fraud

cheyane · August 2019

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing

Oh the black market account sales? LOL, they were not called P2W.. ever.

The certainly were , i was there , and thats what we called them ..

So was I.. and no we didn't.

Thats odd , cause in this recent thread , you said ..

"Anyway.. after my time in Full Loot Open World PvP MUDs, I was glad to move on to PvE only games, and not deal with that level of douchebaggery, which might be why I never got involved with UO."

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481872/have-you-murdered-another-player-in-a-mmorpg/p3

Fraud

Excellent catch

Tamanous · August 2019

coretex666 said:

Troll post?

Personally I think it's the 6 paragraphs of overkill that is the real humor.

Utinni · August 2019

Tamanous said:

coretex666 said:

Troll post?

Personally I think it's the 6 paragraphs of overkill that is the real humor.

He's pointing out the hilarity of how this community defines things. The reactions are actually proving his point.

Ungood · August 2019

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing

Oh the black market account sales? LOL, they were not called P2W.. ever.

The certainly were , i was there , and thats what we called them ..

So was I.. and no we didn't.

Thats odd , cause in this recent thread , you said ..

"Anyway.. after my time in Full Loot Open World PvP MUDs, I was glad to move on to PvE only games, and not deal with that level of douchebaggery, which might be why I never got involved with UO."

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481872/have-you-murdered-another-player-in-a-mmorpg/p3

Fraud

But those accounts (like many others of their ilk) were sold Outside the Game.. on an private auction house, for RMT, which did affect other games (like EQ, which I was actively playing at the time) and were the talk across all gaming forums, and they were not called P2W.

Anything else you want to be wrong about in this thread?

Scorchien · August 2019

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:
Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay. Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops. Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.

I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.

What MMORPG are you talking about? Pay to Win is always pay for advantage. Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you. The degrees vary but that is the basis. Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade.

ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

So.. again... the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on..

Oh, would you look at where we are now..

naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing

Oh the black market account sales? LOL, they were not called P2W.. ever.

The certainly were , i was there , and thats what we called them ..

So was I.. and no we didn't.

Thats odd , cause in this recent thread , you said ..

"Anyway.. after my time in Full Loot Open World PvP MUDs, I was glad to move on to PvE only games, and not deal with that level of douchebaggery, which might be why I never got involved with UO."

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481872/have-you-murdered-another-player-in-a-mmorpg/p3

Fraud

But those accounts (like many others of their ilk) were sold Outside the Game.. on an private auction house, for RMT, which did affect other games (like EQ, which I was actively playing at the time) and were the talk across all gaming forums, and they were not called P2W.

Anything else you want to be wrong about in this thread?

You honestly are not worth arguing with as this community is becoming more and more aware of each time you post ..

But yes , we discussed it alot in ICQ at the time and it was P2W , and oddly enough it was also very easy to pick out those players very fast ..

Free to Play , Pay to Play ( AOL was commonly known as ) and Pay to Win were all phrases commonly used in the mid to late 90s into the early 2000 , then they caught more steam thru mid to late 2000s as the genre grew expotentionly

im done here you keep on your self destructive rants the community has become accustomed to it , altho its painfully transparent and boring ..

Anything else you want to lie about in this thread?

Tamanous · August 2019

Utinni said:

Tamanous said:

coretex666 said:

Troll post?

Personally I think it's the 6 paragraphs of overkill that is the real humor.

He's pointing out the hilarity of how this community defines things. The reactions are actually proving his point.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

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