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Leveling in MMORPGs

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Comments

  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 932
    edited August 2019
    TwoTubes said:
    TwoTubes said:
    I'm intrigued by some of the OPs points.  But I'm not seeing any detailed solutions to many of the problems they present.
    Maybe you could be more specific OP?

    For example, the gear thing.  People enjoy increasing their characters power through a variety of ways, gear acquisition being a major one.  Increased power leads to power creep over the long run.  You can only slow it, not stop it if you want to keep people playing. 

    How do you stop the power creep (the OP is referring to it as outgearing/outleveling content) and still give people incentive to play when one of their primary goals is increasing their characters power?  This is a question that has been discussed since the beginning of mmos and I have never seen a solution I would consider a good one. 
    All MMOs have this when they use vertical progression even when they reach max level.
    The solution to this in a levelless system is the exact same. You can either wing it and just keep increasing gear level like WoW was successful at doing for over 3 years, or you can have a system in which gear deteriorates with use and time and need replacement by crafters and mat hunters. There would always be a market for Gear sellers and repairers for a never ending gear hunt progression.

    Also there are other methods of character progression besides gear. What about class skills. In vanilla WoW you had Class quest. Some harder than others, but needed to be done to unlock a certain class spell or ability. I dont see how that same concept couldnt be upgraded to a whole class system in which task in the world are done to learn new class skills overtime.

    Also I believe its time that more MMOs take a new Group Progression model, in which instead of just dealing with individual Progression, what if games took more focus on Guild Progression, and Faction Progression to help progress the building of a capitol faction city, or progression of a Guild Mission. There are so many methods and when used together creates many aspects of meaningful progression  
    I used gear as an example.  Skill/spell acquisition is the same.  Whether you have a leveling system or a skill tree etc the point remains the same.  All we can do if we want the game to be tuned in a way that people keep playing is slow the power creep. If it is tuned in a way that a players power stops increasing or even degrade people won't stick around for the long term.

    Where the line is of how long players will stick around if they feel like their character isn't gaining a sufficient amount of power is different on a case by case basis.

    I just don't see any solutions to the big picture being offered...but ill offer one :

    The only way to solve the given problems is for people to play games for alternative reasons.  Make increasing the characters power not a factor, make competition not a factor, make a players performance not a factor.  
    Make power increases not matter and people won't care about it...but that seems like a pretty bland game and likely won't attract many players...maybe?


    Battle royale is already the answer for the people who always complain about it over and over in this forum... No power gaps of any type, no progression of any type, just join, enter the map and have a blast on an equal environment for everybody. And it became the dominant genre of online games alongside with Moba.
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,220
    You do realize that a leveling system is a centric and essential element to the genre of RPGs? Whether that be Character Levels or Skill Levels.

    The people who complain about core elements of what makes an mmoRPG shouldn't be playing an mmoRPG.
    IselinSteelhelmAlBQuirky
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,220
    The OP is trolling. He literally provides zero substance or depth to his arguments and does not provide any solution. It's all just toxic wow trade chat slander.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,175
    Eronakis said:
    You do realize that a leveling system is a centric and essential element to the genre of RPGs? Whether that be Character Levels or Skill Levels.

    The people who complain about core elements of what makes an mmoRPG shouldn't be playing an mmoRPG.
    I find it amazing how many here in thread after thread don't get that basic fact.
    AlBQuirkyScorchien
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • DhahranGirlDhahranGirl Newbie CommonPosts: 22
    I played a MMORPG with levelling once but it made the game so boring.  I wasted time on resources on a single level.  When I left that level, I never used those resources again.  Annoying!
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,103
    I played a MMORPG with levelling once but it made the game so boring.  I wasted time on resources on a single level.  When I left that level, I never used those resources again.  Annoying!
    Sounds like a made up story. What MMO was this? What resources were ONLY important for one level?

    I have not played every MMO ever made, so maybe this one I've never heard of?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,097
    Kabulozo said:
    TwoTubes said:
    TwoTubes said:
    I'm intrigued by some of the OPs points.  But I'm not seeing any detailed solutions to many of the problems they present.
    Maybe you could be more specific OP?

    For example, the gear thing.  People enjoy increasing their characters power through a variety of ways, gear acquisition being a major one.  Increased power leads to power creep over the long run.  You can only slow it, not stop it if you want to keep people playing. 

    How do you stop the power creep (the OP is referring to it as outgearing/outleveling content) and still give people incentive to play when one of their primary goals is increasing their characters power?  This is a question that has been discussed since the beginning of mmos and I have never seen a solution I would consider a good one. 
    All MMOs have this when they use vertical progression even when they reach max level.
    The solution to this in a levelless system is the exact same. You can either wing it and just keep increasing gear level like WoW was successful at doing for over 3 years, or you can have a system in which gear deteriorates with use and time and need replacement by crafters and mat hunters. There would always be a market for Gear sellers and repairers for a never ending gear hunt progression.

    Also there are other methods of character progression besides gear. What about class skills. In vanilla WoW you had Class quest. Some harder than others, but needed to be done to unlock a certain class spell or ability. I dont see how that same concept couldnt be upgraded to a whole class system in which task in the world are done to learn new class skills overtime.

    Also I believe its time that more MMOs take a new Group Progression model, in which instead of just dealing with individual Progression, what if games took more focus on Guild Progression, and Faction Progression to help progress the building of a capitol faction city, or progression of a Guild Mission. There are so many methods and when used together creates many aspects of meaningful progression  
    I used gear as an example.  Skill/spell acquisition is the same.  Whether you have a leveling system or a skill tree etc the point remains the same.  All we can do if we want the game to be tuned in a way that people keep playing is slow the power creep. If it is tuned in a way that a players power stops increasing or even degrade people won't stick around for the long term.

    Where the line is of how long players will stick around if they feel like their character isn't gaining a sufficient amount of power is different on a case by case basis.

    I just don't see any solutions to the big picture being offered...but ill offer one :

    The only way to solve the given problems is for people to play games for alternative reasons.  Make increasing the characters power not a factor, make competition not a factor, make a players performance not a factor.  
    Make power increases not matter and people won't care about it...but that seems like a pretty bland game and likely won't attract many players...maybe?


    Battle royale is already the answer for the people who always complain about it over and over in this forum... No power gaps of any type, no progression of any type, just join, enter the map and have a blast on an equal environment for everybody. And it became the dominant genre of online games alongside with Moba.
    BR are not MMORPG.  Looter shooters are more than enough for levels/gear addicts who want some multiplayer if you want to go that route.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,097
    Eronakis said:
    You do realize that a leveling system is a centric and essential element to the genre of RPGs? Whether that be Character Levels or Skill Levels.

    The people who complain about core elements of what makes an mmoRPG shouldn't be playing an mmoRPG.
    MMORPG are not RPG they are based on RPG.  The roles of characters with other players and the world are most important in MMORPG.  Everyone will be maxed level sooner or later but the game doesn't end. For some it begins there. Kind of ironic for something that is based on leveling that the real game begins after leveling is done huh.

    In ability to understand progression not based off D&D is not the fault of anyone but yourself.  Not every MMORPG has to be the Dragon Ball Z experience.  Maybe you guys should play those games since you are obsessed with power levels.  

    People who want limited power gaps want more grounded experience that doesn't divide the players up in what usually becomes trivial and boring trip to power.  We want the world to feel natural and remain relevant.  Not everyone wants a game world that is divided up into levels that becomes more and more irrelevant.  Some want a virtual world and play roles within that virtual world.  

    It is a difference in desires. Thing is looter shooters are much closer to the typical themepark than BR to a horizontal progression MMORPG. So should we recommend you go play Destiny to get your loot and levels?

    Steelhelm
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,496
    Eronakis said:
    You do realize that a leveling system is a centric and essential element to the genre of RPGs? Whether that be Character Levels or Skill Levels.

    The people who complain about core elements of what makes an mmoRPG shouldn't be playing an mmoRPG.
    I fundamentally disagree with this statement.

    The only fundamental element of an RPG is the ability to select and/or define your own role, and for that role to have an effect within the game.

    Thats literally it. There are RPGs without leveling, and there are tons of games that aren't RPGs that do have leveling. Its why games like Assassins Creed or Zelda aren't called RPGs - they have absolutely everything that a "typical" RPG has, except you cannot choose or define your own role.
    Vermillion_RaventhalSteelhelm
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,175
    Eronakis said:
    You do realize that a leveling system is a centric and essential element to the genre of RPGs? Whether that be Character Levels or Skill Levels.

    The people who complain about core elements of what makes an mmoRPG shouldn't be playing an mmoRPG.
    I fundamentally disagree with this statement.

    The only fundamental element of an RPG is the ability to select and/or define your own role, and for that role to have an effect within the game.

    Thats literally it. There are RPGs without leveling, and there are tons of games that aren't RPGs that do have leveling. Its why games like Assassins Creed or Zelda aren't called RPGs - they have absolutely everything that a "typical" RPG has, except you cannot choose or define your own role.
    You're putting your own spin on that. The traditional definition is about assuming a role not defining it. And Zelda is not an RPG? Really?
    immodiumAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,436
    edited August 2019
    Eronakis said:
    You do realize that a leveling system is a centric and essential element to the genre of RPGs? Whether that be Character Levels or Skill Levels.

    The people who complain about core elements of what makes an mmoRPG shouldn't be playing an mmoRPG.
    I fundamentally disagree with this statement.

    The only fundamental element of an RPG is the ability to select and/or define your own role, and for that role to have an effect within the game.

    Thats literally it. There are RPGs without leveling, and there are tons of games that aren't RPGs that do have leveling. Its why games like Assassins Creed or Zelda aren't called RPGs - they have absolutely everything that a "typical" RPG has, except you cannot choose or define your own role.
    Most JRPGs disagree with you here, in practically all of them you play a predetermined character with predetermined class, they do have levelling though....

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    immodium
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,097
    lahnmir said:
    Eronakis said:
    You do realize that a leveling system is a centric and essential element to the genre of RPGs? Whether that be Character Levels or Skill Levels.

    The people who complain about core elements of what makes an mmoRPG shouldn't be playing an mmoRPG.
    I fundamentally disagree with this statement.

    The only fundamental element of an RPG is the ability to select and/or define your own role, and for that role to have an effect within the game.

    Thats literally it. There are RPGs without leveling, and there are tons of games that aren't RPGs that do have leveling. Its why games like Assassins Creed or Zelda aren't called RPGs - they have absolutely everything that a "typical" RPG has, except you cannot choose or define your own role.
    Most JRPGs disagree with you here, in practically all of them you play a predetermined character with predetermined class, they do have levelling though....

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    What an RPG itself is broad.  There are RPGs without levels and other games with levels.  

    Progression and role is all that is required for the basis of any RPG.  Even that isn't always a qualifier. 

    lahnmirSteelhelm
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