When people bought CoH from NCSoft they purchased the right to use the IP (and the server code). Purchased. Did not steal. NCSoft sold them the rights.
When people paid a subscription to NCSoft they paid NCSoft for the service "running the servers". NCSoft made 2 different sales. NCSoft sold them a service.
When NCSoft stopped running the service, in some countries at least, that did not invalidate the purchase.
...you need to take a long breath and start thinking before posting.
Hint: read some Eula of some mmo/online game or learn the difference between service and product.
So weird that this site keeps writing articles about a pirated server.
Point of note, Massively writes them too. News is news.
It's a pretty sad state when illegal activity is regarded as legitimate news by the gaming industry news sites. That really doesn't speak very well for journalistic integrity.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Too many people do not know the difference between criminal activity and defending the rights of corporations. Only in the US will FBI bust your door for hurting the profits of big corporate leeches. In other countries corporations have to protect their product, register, legally represent their interest. No one will go to jail for copying a piece of software in Europe (that is insane on its own).
So US guys take a chill pill, the rest of the world does not suffer the same fate as you guys.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Too many people do not know the difference between criminal activity and defending the rights of corporations. Only in the US will FBI bust your door for hurting the profits of big corporate leeches. In other countries corporations have to protect their product, register, legally represent their interest. No one will go to jail for copying a piece of software in Europe (that is insane on its own).
So US guys take a chill pill, the rest of the world does not suffer the same fate as you guys.
They are being fined though, don’t think you can’t be charged anywhere in Europe, that is not true at all.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Too many people do not know the difference between criminal activity and defending the rights of corporations. Only in the US will FBI bust your door for hurting the profits of big corporate leeches. In other countries corporations have to protect their product, register, legally represent their interest. No one will go to jail for copying a piece of software in Europe (that is insane on its own).
So US guys take a chill pill, the rest of the world does not suffer the same fate as you guys.
They are being fined though, don’t think you can’t be charged anywhere in Europe, that is not true at all.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Did you read what I wrote? Not jail. Fines yed but no armed gang of thugs will break your door for it. Read up, all well written.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Back in the day MMORPG.com did not allow discussions about emulators, mostly likely because SOE was throwing a temper tantrum over SWG EMU discussion, as was Blizzard over WoW emu discussion.
Thing is other game news sites started posting articles about MMO emulators because it's news, and those games now being emulated are shut down officially. So here we are, and yes it is now legitimate game discussion here.
It might just be a matter of economics. There's no doubt that the Homecoming servers are illegal. They are running code that has been stolen. NCSoft would have every right to sue, send cease and desist letters, etc.
But at what cost? Let's be generous and say there are 50,000 players playing now. (Estimates I've seen are lower.) At $10 a month, that's $500,000 a month, minus expenses. Let's say $400,000 a month in profit. But people aren't paying a monthly sub for games much anymore. So CoH would need a cash shop to make real money.
Developing a cash shop would cost money, and for a small user base it might not be worth it. NCSoft might have decided that the legal costs, and the development and support costs if they took it back, just aren't worth it. My guess is that they have decided that the negative public impression, and the small amount of potential income, aren't worth the effort.
Guess this bears repeating. Outside Korea, NCSoft no longer holds the license to City of Heroes. Everywhere save for the main company has let the IP lapse, and Korean laws around emulated servers is not the same as Western/European countries as they do allow emulated servers with certain caveats.
We are talking about the server side code that was given to Leo by a Developer just after the official servers closed down that is the code that SCORE is using to run the servers. The code is owned by NCSoft and they illegally obtained that code, technically the client is also legally owned by NCSoft not us what we purchased was access to the game while it was live.
I should have worded it a bit better, but that is what I meant. The servers are 100% CoH. Exactly how the game was.
Custom stuff like changing drop rates, etc doesn't change the fact its running NCSofts source code on the bottom and NCSofts art and IP assets in the game!
People seem to think Homecoming is an EMU, like for example the SWGEMU project, etc.
EMU projects like SWG require you to own and install the original game client and then connect to a EMU server, which is entirely made up of own code based on reverse engineering estimates to guess how the server works and trying to emulate it.
As long as the EMU servers don't host actual client downloads, they are not doing anything illegal and hence why they can get away with it. Especially since pretty much all EMU projects are a buggy, barely functioning mess! SWGEMU is still a hot mess today and I gave up on it.
Homecoming is running stolen source code and practically running a fully functioning game server on NCSoft's codebase! This is illegal, no matter how people try to spin it here. End of story!
Right for some reason we got our wires cross we were both making the same point that SCORE server is 100% illegal due to the base code it was built on is stolen code from NCSoft lol thats why I mentioned SEGS being the only legal source to play coh as that is an emulator its just all you can do is barely walk around on that right now lol
Companies don't have rights, authors don't have rights, musicians don't have rights, only you the player/listener/reader has rights. Funny that.
Probably meant as a clever comment I suspect but if so not thought through.
Companies have rights, especially in countries where software has been defined as a product which means they can fall back on a whole body of product law. And for their products they want maximum protection.
But consumers that buy products have rights as well.
And heres the rub:
When a company buys a product from another company they are a consumer. And - guess what - they want maximum protection for their purchase!
Summary: as a product owner companies want maximum protection; when they purchase another companies product they want maximum protection!
I suggest its this point that you forgot about. And if you were to use a card to pay for something, turn up to catch a flight, expect a time critical delivery .... well the list is long and X stops because someone pulls the plug .... ? Which is why companies - as consumers - want maximum protection because it is their brand name that is likely to suffer.
What I was getting at is that you get posters on here (and everywhere else) who seem to think that the only entity that should have rights is them. So my one line comment was not meant to explain the full complexities of the situation, having only been one sentence that should not be surprising.
Guess this bears repeating. Outside Korea, NCSoft no longer holds the license to City of Heroes. Everywhere save for the main company has let the IP lapse, and Korean laws around emulated servers is not the same as Western/European countries as they do allow emulated servers with certain caveats.
It bears repeating that in June 2017 NCsoft officially launched their MOBA called MxM, which had Statesman from CoH and Ghost Widow from CoV. The game was shut down a few months later but it was enough to renew their license of CoH and its characters.
It bears repeating that in June 2017 NCsoft officially launched their MOBA called MxM, which had Statesman from CoH and Ghost Widow from CoV. The game was shut down a few months later but it was enough to renew their license of CoH and its characters.
As it currently stands, I can repeat, the only branch of NCSoft that holds any license relating to CoH, is the main branch in Korea. Neither NCSoft West nor any other component holds any CoH licenses or titles outside of this.
It bears repeating that in June 2017 NCsoft officially launched their MOBA called MxM, which had Statesman from CoH and Ghost Widow from CoV. The game was shut down a few months later but it was enough to renew their license of CoH and its characters.
As it currently stands, I can repeat, the only branch of NCSoft that holds any license relating to CoH, is the main branch in Korea. Neither NCSoft West nor any other component holds any CoH licenses or titles outside of this.
MxM did not renew anything.
You can say it as many times as you want but that doesn't make it true.
NCsoft's original trademark probably hasn't run out.
You have to file an extension in the 6th of your trademark to keep it which NCsoft would have done as the game launched in 2004 and ended in 2012. The extension would have been for another 10 years, extending it to 2020.
But, if you use the trademark within that time that counts as a Declaration of Use, such as CoH characters in MxM. This is a common tactic that companies use all the time.
You have said twice now that only NCsoft Korea retains the CoH trademark but have provided zero proof or citation. Time to put up or shut up.
Too many people do not know the difference between criminal activity and defending the rights of corporations. Only in the US will FBI bust your door for hurting the profits of big corporate leeches. In other countries corporations have to protect their product, register, legally represent their interest. No one will go to jail for copying a piece of software in Europe (that is insane on its own).
So US guys take a chill pill, the rest of the world does not suffer the same fate as you guys.
They are being fined though, don’t think you can’t be charged anywhere in Europe, that is not true at all.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Did you read what I wrote? Not jail. Fines yed but no armed gang of thugs will break your door for it. Read up, all well written.
I read it and responded, nowhere did I say you were wrong.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Lets talk about the ‘illegal’ servers. Are they breaking the law right now? Technically no. Until NCsoft steps in defend their IP, the
private server operators can do anything they want.
Copyright law is written to protect the owners of the
copyright for as long as they care about their product. It does have a loophole, in that if the IP is
not defended there is no law broken, and after 7 years (US; unsure about South
Korea) the IP can be claimed by someone else.
This 7 years starts from when the use of the IP by anyone other than the
owner is known by the public. The time
when the servers were working ‘underground’ does not count, since this was not
known to the public. Basically the 7
years (US law; as I said I am unsure about Korean law) started this March. The actual IP, if it is not acted on by owner
or ‘pirate’, is protected for a very long time, I believe it is 35 years.
If NCsoft chooses to defend their IP, then all of the
private servers will instantly be on the wrong side of the law. But this does not happen until the IP owner
acts.
I believe that NCsoft wrote off the value of the CoX game
for tax purposes while the game was still turning a profit to maximize its
value. In the US, a tax writeoff is
spread over 14 years. I am unsure how Korean
law works in this, but lets assume it is 7 years. Assuming the first write off year was 2013,
the seventh year will be this year, 2019.
So at the end of this year, the CoH game will be completely written off
for tax purposes (again, I don’t know Korean law; this is an assumption). At this point in time, they may be wary of
defending the IP because it may affect their writeoff (why are they defending a
property that has in effect, no value?).
But, once the value is written down, they would still be the owners of
the IP and could defend their property without worrying about the writeoff.
They may very well have gotten an over-inflated value of
the game in the order of $50,000,000 USD.
That would be a SEVEN MILLION DOLLAR per year write off. That is a LOT of money, even to a large corporation
like NCsoft. When you look at it that
way, it is easy to see why they did not sell to Paragon Studios or the Titan
Network. They got a lot more value from
the writeoff. My bet is that once NCsoft
files their taxes next year, we will find out what is really going on.
So I bet that the first or second week of January, the IP
will be sold to another game company or the C&D letters will start flying.
Again! A lot of the private servers are running reverse engineered code (aka EMU's = emulators). They also require people connecting to these to buy and pay for the original game client to be able to connect to it.
Homecoming servers are running on "stolen" source code from NCSoft. THAT is illegal!
Homecoming is not an EMU and not running a reverse engineered emulator! Their download installer contains the entire game client, so anyone can just download, install it and practically play the original CoH without paying a single dime!
On the other hand, SWGEMU only hosts the emulator and their client launcher requires you to own the SWG game client yourself and have it pre-installed! This is that "grey" area and why some EMU projects are getting away with it. In SWGEMU's case, SWG was long gone and SOE had lost the SW license... so they could care less at that moment.
Even if you were buying the original game to connect to an EMU (which I can assure you most people are not), the money won't be going to the original company as no retail store or online digital storefront is still selling the exact iteration of the client you need to buy. You have to go on Ebay and buy it off some person. So this argument that EMU's are somehow legal while private servers are not is weird.
This server has blown up quite a bit in the past few months, NCsoft can definitely do something about it, as they are obviously aware and in talks with the server owners, but as of right now aren't stopping the server. You say it's blackmail, but where's the evidence of that?
Too many people do not know the difference between criminal activity and defending the rights of corporations. Only in the US will FBI bust your door for hurting the profits of big corporate leeches. In other countries corporations have to protect their product, register, legally represent their interest. No one will go to jail for copying a piece of software in Europe (that is insane on its own).
So US guys take a chill pill, the rest of the world does not suffer the same fate as you guys.
whoa! I don't think it's insane at all. If a corporation makes something it should be theirs. period. Just because they are large doesn't mean they don't have rights.
If a corporation does something illegal then of course they should be called to task. Just like anyone. But if they have spent their resources to create something then it's theirs. Period. They can charge a million dollars a month for access, they can give it away to some and charge others, they can sell it for a day and then never have it accessible again.
It's theirs. Their product, their work, their resources.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It bears repeating that in June 2017 NCsoft officially launched their MOBA called MxM, which had Statesman from CoH and Ghost Widow from CoV. The game was shut down a few months later but it was enough to renew their license of CoH and its characters.
As it currently stands, I can repeat, the only branch of NCSoft that holds any license relating to CoH, is the main branch in Korea. Neither NCSoft West nor any other component holds any CoH licenses or titles outside of this.
MxM did not renew anything.
You can say it as many times as you want but that doesn't make it true.
NCsoft's original trademark probably hasn't run out.
You have to file an extension in the 6th of your trademark to keep it which NCsoft would have done as the game launched in 2004 and ended in 2012. The extension would have been for another 10 years, extending it to 2020.
But, if you use the trademark within that time that counts as a Declaration of Use, such as CoH characters in MxM. This is a common tactic that companies use all the time.
You have said twice now that only NCsoft Korea retains the CoH trademark but have provided zero proof or citation. Time to put up or shut up.
There's a few things wrong with this argument.
For one, you're talking about trademarking which has nothing to do with copyrighting or licensing of the game's assets or distribution.
For another thing trademarking the CoH name did not take place right at launch, but years prior. Not only that, but it consisted of multiple brand names under that banner, which I can again note that the only title that is still maintained by the main NCSoft branch is "City of Heroes", not "City of Villains" or any other affiliated trademark or asset.
On top of that you missed the point that Korea does not have the same laws regarding private servers.
It might just be a matter of economics. There's no doubt that the Homecoming servers are illegal. They are running code that has been stolen. NCSoft would have every right to sue, send cease and desist letters, etc.
But at what cost? Let's be generous and say there are 50,000 players playing now. (Estimates I've seen are lower.) At $10 a month, that's $500,000 a month, minus expenses. Let's say $400,000 a month in profit. But people aren't paying a monthly sub for games much anymore. So CoH would need a cash shop to make real money.
Developing a cash shop would cost money, and for a small user base it might not be worth it. NCSoft might have decided that the legal costs, and the development and support costs if they took it back, just aren't worth it. My guess is that they have decided that the negative public impression, and the small amount of potential income, aren't worth the effort.
There was a cash shop in place when the game went Free To Play. The private servers have removed the shop. It would be no big deal to put it back in.
Development costs are a different thing. That is likely the main reason NCsoft shut down CoH in the first place, coupled with increased competition (Marvel Heroes).
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
As I see it, there are three areas where there may be legal contention.
Stolen source code for a server side product which was never sold to anyone is not legal according to many laws.
Operating a pirated version of this server software is also illegal in the US.
Using previously purchased client side software to connect to this service *may* fall under the jurisdiction of laws pertaining to "receiving stolen goods".
Right now, the legislature isn't actively prosecuting groups or individuals in violation of any of these three areas. That may or may not change. There may not be an incentive (read: money) to entice anyone to make formal complaints and try to have these violations investigated.
Worldwide, IP protection is new and hasn't had a landmark case. There isn't a universal accepted set of laws to deal with the IP rights. Entirely too many countries, even those that have hard laws to protect IP rights, are actively willing to pursue violations like these. It's really a shame to think that it may soon be legal to steal IP rights and simply remain uncaught/unpunished until some arbitrary statute of limitations expires.
Anyway, there is legal and there is ethical. All of these actions are unethical, regardless of the actions of the legal profession.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
Hint: read some Eula of some mmo/online game or learn the difference between service and product.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Too many people do not know the difference between criminal activity and defending the rights of corporations. Only in the US will FBI bust your door for hurting the profits of big corporate leeches. In other countries corporations have to protect their product, register, legally represent their interest. No one will go to jail for copying a piece of software in Europe (that is insane on its own).
So US guys take a chill pill, the rest of the world does not suffer the same fate as you guys.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Right for some reason we got our wires cross we were both making the same point that SCORE server is 100% illegal due to the base code it was built on is stolen code from NCSoft lol thats why I mentioned SEGS being the only legal source to play coh as that is an emulator its just all you can do is barely walk around on that right now lol
MxM did not renew anything.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
This server has blown up quite a bit in the past few months, NCsoft can definitely do something about it, as they are obviously aware and in talks with the server owners, but as of right now aren't stopping the server. You say it's blackmail, but where's the evidence of that?
If a corporation does something illegal then of course they should be called to task. Just like anyone. But if they have spent their resources to create something then it's theirs. Period. They can charge a million dollars a month for access, they can give it away to some and charge others, they can sell it for a day and then never have it accessible again.
It's theirs. Their product, their work, their resources.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
For one, you're talking about trademarking which has nothing to do with copyrighting or licensing of the game's assets or distribution.
For another thing trademarking the CoH name did not take place right at launch, but years prior. Not only that, but it consisted of multiple brand names under that banner, which I can again note that the only title that is still maintained by the main NCSoft branch is "City of Heroes", not "City of Villains" or any other affiliated trademark or asset.
On top of that you missed the point that Korea does not have the same laws regarding private servers.
And I'm sorry you don't know what trademarks are in their actual scope, or the fact you can look them up for free online.
Development costs are a different thing. That is likely the main reason NCsoft shut down CoH in the first place, coupled with increased competition (Marvel Heroes).
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.