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Final Fantasy XI...for all of its flaws, I'm surprised no one has attempted to mimic its success.

xcyper33xcyper33 Member UncommonPosts: 23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVuqN0RBFcY

It is arguably the 2nd most successful MMORPG of all time outside of WoW. And people stuck to this game for so long but why? And why don't people learn from FFXI, another successful MMORPG and an alternate way of presenting content than what you see in WoW.

Namely, the need to interact with others to meaningfully gain progress vibrates throughout all parts of the game. From leveling, to questing, to raiding, to PVP. This created the strongest sense of community I've ever experienced within an MMORPG. And as far as I can tell, FFXI is unique in a sea of MMORPGs in this way because no one has ever attempted this style of gameplay again. 


blueturtle13Azaron_Nightblade

Comments

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,505
    edited August 11
    xcyper33 said:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVuqN0RBFcY

    It is arguably the 2nd most successful MMORPG of all time outside of WoW. And people stuck to this game for so long but why? And why don't people learn from FFXI, another successful MMORPG and an alternate way of presenting content than what you see in WoW.

    Namely, the need to interact with others to meaningfully gain progress vibrates throughout all parts of the game. From leveling, to questing, to raiding, to PVP. This created the strongest sense of community I've ever experienced within an MMORPG. And as far as I can tell, FFXI is unique in a sea of MMORPGs in this way because no one has ever attempted this style of gameplay again. 


    Probably because some of the core developers admitted to regretting making the game like it was, which was honestly a way of life more so than a game if you tried to do everything. Many of the FFXIV devs (which came from FFXI) wanted to create FFXIV as a casual alternative to FFXI (they said as much). I could honestly right an entire thesis on this game, but in short, its just too slow. Today's market wants self-reliance, minimal player interaction, and speed, all of which FFXI was the opposite of.

    Personally, I'd love to have all those things back, because the game was a lot less about your personal skill in a particular job and how well you could sell yourself. It would more of a social strategy game that required you to forge various bonds with people and groups if you want to reach the 'top.' If all you do is play Dragoon, chances are you're going to be overlooked for someone that's willing to play Dragoon and Bard while also being on often, so people at the top would often have to adapt to progress, which is really counter to how people are now (and honestly how they were then too but didn't want to admit it).
    xcyper33
  • JakobmillerJakobmiller Member UncommonPosts: 333
    Same thing could be said about Guild Wars in my opinion. I have craved a game like that for many many years now.
    Aeander
  • xcyper33xcyper33 Member UncommonPosts: 23

    Albatroes said:

    Probably because some of the core developers admitted to regretting making the game like it was, which was honestly a way of life more so than a game if you tried to do everything. Many of the FFXIV devs (which came from FFXI) wanted to create FFXIV as a casual alternative to FFXI (they said as much). I could honestly right an entire thesis on this game, but in short, its just too slow. Today's market wants self-reliance, minimal player interaction, and speed, all of which FFXI was the opposite of. 

    I understand that this style is a niche. But don't you find it ironic? How niche it is, and yet its one of the most successful MMOs? And in this env we are in, with so many options and choices, many of which have failed to capture any significant audience for long periods of time, I find it peculiar that someone wouldn't get inspired from FFXI and take a shot at a party-based game, even if they were to streamline a lot of the mechanics seen in XI. I kinda wish XIV devs did this. 


    Albatroes
     said:

    Personally, I'd love to have all those things back, because the game was a lot less about your personal skill in a particular job and how well you could sell yourself. It would more of a social strategy game that required you to forge various bonds with people and groups if you want to reach the 'top.' If all you do is play Dragoon, chances are you're going to be overlooked for someone that's willing to play Dragoon and Bard while also being on often, so people at the top would often have to adapt to progress, which is really counter to how people are now (and honestly how they were then too but didn't want to admit it).

    Definitely! It had so many smaller intricacies going on. But like the video I posted, I do understand how this was as much a flaw as it was a positive as you had so many people sitting on the sidelines like hobos awaiting a group to play with. It was very much a dog-eat-dog world out there and incredibly intimidating even for audiences back then, let alone in the modern times. Still, with some tweaks to its core mechanics, I'm sure they can address this issue.


  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,839
    xcyper33 said:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVuqN0RBFcY

    It is arguably the 2nd most successful MMORPG of all time outside of WoW. And people stuck to this game for so long but why? And why don't people learn from FFXI, another successful MMORPG and an alternate way of presenting content than what you see in WoW.

    Namely, the need to interact with others to meaningfully gain progress vibrates throughout all parts of the game. From leveling, to questing, to raiding, to PVP. This created the strongest sense of community I've ever experienced within an MMORPG. And as far as I can tell, FFXI is unique in a sea of MMORPGs in this way because no one has ever attempted this style of gameplay again. 


    FFXIV was trying that initially.  Due to all of the issues regarding performance and things like poor zone design they killed it and instead launched WoW:FF edition.

    1.0 had issues for sure but they literally decided to copy/paste WoW's endgame formula, it has so much more potential before.
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,025
    edited August 11
    I never played it but FFXI persisted on Playstation 2 across three generations of consoles from 2003 until it closed down in 2016. Many modern mmos don't live that long.

    Respect to the PS2 and to FFXI for proving a lot of people wrong who claimed consoles couldn't handle mmos.

    And the fact that the PC servers are still alive says a lot about that game.




  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,260
    xcyper33 said:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVuqN0RBFcY

    It is arguably the 2nd most successful MMORPG of all time outside of WoW. And people stuck to this game for so long but why? And why don't people learn from FFXI, another successful MMORPG and an alternate way of presenting content than what you see in WoW.

    Namely, the need to interact with others to meaningfully gain progress vibrates throughout all parts of the game. From leveling, to questing, to raiding, to PVP. This created the strongest sense of community I've ever experienced within an MMORPG. And as far as I can tell, FFXI is unique in a sea of MMORPGs in this way because no one has ever attempted this style of gameplay again. 


    FF11 is not the 2nd most successful MMO of all time. Its laughable to even suggest that. Lineage 1 had twice as many subscribers at its peak compared to FF11s peak and was running years before FF11 launched and is still running years after FF11 has gone maintenance mode.

    No one has bothered to copy it because FF11 was just a copy of Everquest(original Game Director Koichi Iishi admitted this). So, no one is going to copy a copy they will just copy the original, like Pantheon.
    blueturtle13Remalijimmywolf
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,520
    That's how games evolved it used to be be told or tell someone you have to be xyz and now you do whatever you want without consequence due to lack of social ramifications.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • UtinniUtinni Member RarePosts: 1,020
    Xiaoki said:
    xcyper33 said:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVuqN0RBFcY

    It is arguably the 2nd most successful MMORPG of all time outside of WoW. And people stuck to this game for so long but why? And why don't people learn from FFXI, another successful MMORPG and an alternate way of presenting content than what you see in WoW.

    Namely, the need to interact with others to meaningfully gain progress vibrates throughout all parts of the game. From leveling, to questing, to raiding, to PVP. This created the strongest sense of community I've ever experienced within an MMORPG. And as far as I can tell, FFXI is unique in a sea of MMORPGs in this way because no one has ever attempted this style of gameplay again. 


    FF11 is not the 2nd most successful MMO of all time. Its laughable to even suggest that. Lineage 1 had twice as many subscribers at its peak compared to FF11s peak and was running years before FF11 launched and is still running years after FF11 has gone maintenance mode.

    No one has bothered to copy it because FF11 was just a copy of Everquest(original Game Director Koichi Iishi admitted this). So, no one is going to copy a copy they will just copy the original, like Pantheon.
    There's an interview where Ishii talked about how hard it was to find a copy of Everquest in Japan. It's a pretty funny journey he wen't on to get it, and EQ is how he learned most of his english.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,042
    One of the worst MMO experiences I ever had...in fact, FFXI and FFXIV were probably the two worst.....I came over from EQ to try it because I heard how great the community was....Well they weren't great to outsiders apparently....No one would answer questions and they really rubbed me the wrong way so I uninstalled after about an hour.
    Remali
  • XatshXatsh Member UncommonPosts: 321
    edited August 11
    FFXI's success was in how it did its expansions and gearing. It made content, crafting, and so on relevant all the way until they change the formula in abysea. Almost everything had a link to endgame in some way all the way from a lvl 6 rabbit dropping a BIS stealing necklace to the hardest raid in the game dropping weapons. Why at a point there was over 150hrs of relevant top tier endgame content to do a week and stupid amount of low man instance (40+) fights and rare spawns you could camp. To this date no mmo even comes remotely close to the amount of (non-vanity) relevant endgame content that game had.

    That was the biggest success of ffxi in my eyes. And why so many ppl played it for so long.

    Was it balanced and fair... hell no. But it worked all the way until they changed it.

    I would sure love it if ffxiv had 3 expansions worth of non-negated content instead of about 1/3rd of one at once.

    This part of ffxi I cannot understand why no one has copied yet, as it just seems like a logical thing to do. Expand the game every time instead of negating everything before it. Get rid of the generally hated gear treadmill. Stop with the constant level increases killing all content before it. And keep your players occupied in your game instead of being forced to play your competitors as well.

    FFXI was the worst and best designed game in the genre. IF they could just keep the good and get rid of the bad and bring it into the modern era... you would literally have the perfect mmo.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,465
    edited August 11
    There is a very simple reason it is not copied,all developers care about is money,so they copied the game that made the most money.
    Look at everything the genre has done the last 10 years>>>NOTHING,instead they have worked around the clock to add in money grabs but ignoring game play.Devs do not care about what type of game they make outside of seeing what is accepted as the current money maker.

    This is why Epic canned what was Paragon and canned what Fortnite was supposed to be,all the saw was money,nothing else.
    The list goes on and on and on,Trion rather than improve their game went for loot boxes,again money grabs.
    EQ series turned to cash shops as well lead by the infamous Smedley.

    EVERYTHING Blizzard does in their games is cash shop or money grabs,from Esport to plain old cash shops,any way they can make a buck.

    Even the very reason FFXIV exists is because of greed.All the FF fans wanted was an updated FFXI but that would not sell for as much as a whole game, so SE said no and set about making a new game.

    There were very few actual mistakes in FFXI,i know the few they made ,most of the problems were simply bad implementation,in other words nothing a few tweaks couldn't fix,like drops rates,rewards,magic burst dmg,2h over 1 h weapons etc etc.

    No matter the ins and outs,flaws,bad implementation,FFXI still did what other mmorpg's did only way way better and with more depth.The only thing FFXI ignored was the pvp scene and to most everyone,they agreed was a smart choice.Funny seeing pvp after pvp game fail over and over ,nobody learns from the past,yet SE knew from day 1 it should not be an important part of a mmorpg.

    There were no devs,there was Tanaka,he made the decisions for the entire game which was in essence a  much better robust version of FF3,another fave game of mine.FFXI was the proper way to make a game,rather than have different people making decisions because then a game is mish mash of ideas that do not come together,EXACTLY what i see from developers present day.

    IMO FFXI msot certainly is the "template" <<<keyword ,to follow,in other words,the original game was fun but needs reworking to make that template even better which is what EVERY game design should become and that is better over time.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,465
    This thread actually points to what i said in the last line,IMPROVE over time,there is not a single mmorpg that has improved the genre,all we see is instances and dungeon runs and pvp,pathetic game design.
    This might be popular,idk,if we do't see any different choices,how would we really know what popular is?If everyone copies the Wow /EQ2 template,there is no choice in the genre,just a pile of copy cat games.
    How sad is this,FFXI could release right now and feel more like a realistic life journey than ANY mmorpg right now.
    This is why i play Atlas now,it feels like a world,i feel like i live there,it is not a bunch of dungeon raid runs foolishness,it is more like a mmorpg than any mmorpg currently is.

    People are not playing mmorpg's ,they are playing dungeon loot runners/loot boxes,remove the loot and there is no game at all,everyone would quit.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,465
    Furthermore,as long as free to play is here no developer will ever make a complete robust mmorpg ever again because all they want is a cash shop to have micro sales on goofy ideas like the loot boxes,or pvp "seasons" .
    A robust true mmorpg would set a developer back several years and a lot of money,NONE of the developers operate like this anymore.Instead devs want us to pay for the game design and to sell that unfinished pipe dream to us at a full product price.
    You can thanks your fellow gamer's for supporting all the crap the gaming genre has brought us the last 10 years.Cash shops are going nowhere,too many dumb-asses spending boatloads of money.

    BTW...There is someone making another FFXI,sadly it is Nexon who wants to target the Asian market with another heavy cash shop game that is popular.So to anyone hoping for an updated more modern version of FFXI,we will get more cash shop ideas than actual game ideas because that is  what Nexon does.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • CoatedCoated Member UncommonPosts: 477
    One of the worst MMO experiences I ever had...in fact, FFXI and FFXIV were probably the two worst.....I came over from EQ to try it because I heard how great the community was....Well they weren't great to outsiders apparently....No one would answer questions and they really rubbed me the wrong way so I uninstalled after about an hour.
    This sums up my experience with FFXI. I remember logging on and the first thing being spammed in chat was, "HAHA. You towers destroyed! America sucks!" Lets not forget, that this game was released just a few months after all that crap went down.

    This was a complete contrast to what my mind was expecting. Still, can I blame the Japanese? There was mixed feelings on both ends about merging servers and it was very apparent right off the bat that a large portion of the Japanese community did not want this. What went through the game creators minds with this decision when large portions on both ends did not want a merger.

    I never got to experience FFXI much after that. It sounds like I didn't miss much. Heavily constructed game forcing group content with people at odds with each other. Recipe for success.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,839
    Xatsh said:
    FFXI's success was in how it did its expansions and gearing. It made content, crafting, and so on relevant all the way until they change the formula in abysea. Almost everything had a link to endgame in some way all the way from a lvl 6 rabbit dropping a BIS stealing necklace to the hardest raid in the game dropping weapons. Why at a point there was over 150hrs of relevant top tier endgame content to do a week and stupid amount of low man instance (40+) fights and rare spawns you could camp. To this date no mmo even comes remotely close to the amount of (non-vanity) relevant endgame content that game had.

    That was the biggest success of ffxi in my eyes. And why so many ppl played it for so long.

    Was it balanced and fair... hell no. But it worked all the way until they changed it.

    I would sure love it if ffxiv had 3 expansions worth of non-negated content instead of about 1/3rd of one at once.

    This part of ffxi I cannot understand why no one has copied yet, as it just seems like a logical thing to do. Expand the game every time instead of negating everything before it. Get rid of the generally hated gear treadmill. Stop with the constant level increases killing all content before it. And keep your players occupied in your game instead of being forced to play your competitors as well.

    FFXI was the worst and best designed game in the genre. IF they could just keep the good and get rid of the bad and bring it into the modern era... you would literally have the perfect mmo.
    This is what I refer to as "the WoW formula".  Nothing builds on itself, instead it basically starts everything over.  They call them expansions but they may as well be called seasons.  Their financial success means that this part of it isn't that big of a deal but, most of what they design will be dead within a month except for the people catching up.  Once you hit the end of an expansion you park yourself in the hub and wait for your instance to pop.
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,713
    It was an average success. On par with The Secret World, Rift and a bunch of other MMO's that did "okay". Not great, but alright enough to turn a profit. FFXIV has completely eclipsed it by now in terms of success, and is probably the current #2 of most successful MMOs in the West. Either that or ESO.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

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