Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Crowfall - Embargoed! - MMORPG.com

2

Comments

  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 144
    BruceYee said:
    "Tight-lipped about their internal goals and schedules" this is what has some people like me bothered. Wasn't Crowdfunding supposed to be about transparency and not being bound to the "rules" of big publishers. Saying you're going to do one thing then go the other way rubs people the wrong way but I guess these guys don't care about stuff like that anymore.

    "MMO'S take a long time to develop" is fine but they said the game would be out in 2016 or at least the beta? You're saying it'll "probably" be out of alpha in spring 2020. That's quite a big difference so which one is it... 1. They were clueless about how long the game would take to make and lied or 2. Knew how long it would take and lied.

    There seems to be no sense of urgency by these folks to get the game out but rather the opposite. It would be refreshing to hear about any desire to actually release the game once in a while.

    I agree with Kano about losing interest in both this game and CU. I still hope that both games come out and are successful but it really feels like they missed their chance at times. If they ever do come out I'll support($) both games the best I can though.
    As a guy who's been around gaming a long time and who has covered a number of standard development models before the crowdfunding fad, this IS open.   Let me ask you question.  Do you know where Amazon is with their New World development yet?  What system are they working on right now and what's in their hopper for the next dev sprint?   Do you know the answers to that?

    There are several big-name studios developing unannounced titles right now.   All you have to do is look at linkedin to see who's suddenly hired a lot of new devs, and you know someone's got something cooking.  You'll hear about it 2-3 years from now, and it'll still be another 1.5-2 years after that before release.   That's normal.

    What you see with CF, SotA, and others like this is not normal.

    Nothing wrong with walking away from it because you're not interested.   I actually think that's the failing of the crowdfunding model.   The hype peak is far too soon, so you really miss the wave that way.  Plus, crowdfunding doesn't really raise enough money to develop a game, so it's main purpose ends up being marketing.    So, I kind of see crowdfunding dying out as we go forward.
    Amazon didn't put together a Kickstarter and "Kickstart" their game with people's money intended to develop a game they pitched to the people. My point here being, Crowfall did and transparency to these people about goals, schedules, etc can and should be a fundamental requirement of this kind of model.

    Honestly, why isn't it? They owe their community (Yes, not legally. But I'm not talking legally.) some sort of debt for trusting in them to do this. Why can't they do their part and keep the community in the loop about these things?
  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 144
    Where these small dev studios go off the rails is by losing focus and trying to cater to everyone.  They have limited resources. They need to maximize the gain from every hour and every dollar they spend.  They are not Amazon.  Do what they promised to do and do it well.  If they succeed then they can expand and cater to the non-core folks.  
    This pretty much sums up my problem with Kickstarter games. They accomplish what they promise but try to go beyond to reach for more. I feel like this is why they fail, they use what they had to fulfill their original design but get... greedy(?) trying for more than originally intended.

    I get that plans change where they need to, but these devs always seem to get carried away and bite off more than they can chew. Then it leaves them and the community high and dry because they couldn't organize their project in a way that gives them and the community a product, and the product a future.
    Torval
  • CopperfieldCopperfield Member UncommonPosts: 610
    screenshot this:

    crowfall is the new wildstar flop
    Rusque
  • ScellowScellow Member RarePosts: 398
    Thanks for your full transparency, as a reward, i'll disable adblock for this website
    Red_ThomasLokero
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,500
    edited August 5



    Also, how fast do you think large MMOs are developed?   What timeline are you comparing them against?
    18 months of course, this from their KSer.

    "The core module is estimated to be delivered by Winter 2016. First release (with partial functionality) will begin alpha testing in late Summer 2015."

    Perhaps a more recent update?

    "The team anticipates kicking off alpha testing at the end of the summer of 2018. After that, their march towards a beta phase will start."

    https://mmopulse.com/news/crowfall-soft-launch-in-2019-alpha-testing-in-2018-eventual-release-in-russia-cis-countries

    I could go on, but you get the point, expectations have been set by the developers since day one, and continuously broken.

    Now here you estimate they might be ready to move to alpha in the spring of 2020, but they aren't even willing to say so.

    Judging from the track records of CU, and SC looks like 7, 8 or more years is how long, if so CF fans might be waiting until 2022 or beyond.

    Not sure you backed the right horse.


    Slapshot1188Torval

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,500
    edited August 5
    Torval said:
    DMKano said:
    I backed this and CU.

    At this point I've just about lost all interest in both.

    Why? Endless updates without the actual finished product- i just dont care anymore
    If they've fulfilled all their Kickstarter promises like Vrika said above then why don't they just launch?

    On the front of my Steam Store feed today I saw that Atlas has a new DLC and I thought WTF! It's free, but the point being that if you're launching DLC for your game then take it out of Early Access! Things have gotten so stupid.
    The consumer base is now okay with less finished products, which they clearly show by how fast they flock to early access and pre-alpha
    IMO this is the single worst trend in modern game development and is where much of the blame for the current state of gaming falls squarely in the lap of the consumer.

    When I recall how much crap Funcom got for the "lack of quality" of AOC at launch when it actually was hands downs better than almost any modern indie title to date its definitively a case of smh.

    We don't need better games, we need smarter consumers.

    :D


    HatefullTorvaltweedledumb99cheeba

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,936
    Neoyoshi said:
    At the end of the day, investing in Kickstarter projects is a gamble; and if only these projects would put a little bit of honesty in their introductions- Like: "This may fall apart and not happen, so be aware you may be throwing your money away, but thank you for the leap of faith."

    I have only personally witnessed ONE game project make it out of kickstarter, release, and actually be successful both financially and critically, and that one is Bloodstained: Ritual of the night.

    Perhaps it just comes down to work ethics and actual loyalty to a fanbase and it's consumers.

    Or maybe it's luck, you know- "Gambling"
    75%+ of my KS “gambling” has paid of in the form of a fully launched game, whether is was good or bad is besides the point. I wouldn’t call it luck at all.

    Some of my “gambling” was for:

    Grim Dawn
    Earthlock
    Divinity: OS
    Divinity:OS 2
    Insomnia
    Wasteland 2
    Tides of Numera
    Broken Age
    Hexx
    Shroud of the Avatar
    Balrum

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • ronanxronanx Member UncommonPosts: 26


    "For one, there are a lot of players (like me, for instance) who play at odd times and often alone due to work or family life. The game has to have systems for supporting solo players, and a rewarding PvE experience can be an important part of that."



    This actually does not make a lot of sense. If there are "a lot" of players who play at odd times then there should be "a lot" of players at those times. There are certainly "some" players who play at odd times. But building a game to accommodate the "some" is probably not a great idea when it comes to spending limited development resources.



    Your opinion can certainly be different, but to me... when you have limited resources you should target for the maximum benefit of the most potential players. I do not think solo players are their target audience. I do not mind the PvE adds, but they should stay in context of the greater group game. There should be large group objectives and small group objectives. I'm not really seeing Crowfall as a game that needs solo objectives.



    Unlimited budget and resources? SURE... but given the constraints they are under I would rather they focus on making the CORE game as good as possible.






    No it doesnt have to have rewards for solo players. The whole point of the game is to group up with people and conquer the other lands. If you don't have time for your hobby then maybe its not the hobby for you.
    Hatefull
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 840
    Has this game launched yet, or is it one of those game which is in perpetual Early Access mode?
    Personally I can't be bothered by those games still in a limbo.

    In my opinion EA MMOs will never be successful as they spread their playerbase very thin throughout the years they are in EA mode.

    TorvalKyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,200
    TEKK3N said:
    Has this game launched yet, or is it one of those game which is in perpetual Early Access mode?
    Personally I can't be bothered by those games still in a limbo.

    In my opinion EA MMOs will never be successful as they spread their playerbase very thin throughout the years they are in EA mode.

    It’s in pre-alpha

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 554
    Red, your whole post is a dodge.  You continue to make up numbers to build strawman arguments.  Of COURSE if a dollar would get five times the retention doing something you would spend it there.  That is why you focus on the core.  Not on items to support people who are playing at off hours and supposedly  are looking for solo PvE in a group based PvP game. There are a lot of games that people can already play that have great solo PvE. Crowfall is highly unlikely to ever successfully lure people from those games.  It’s not meant to. At it’s heart it is a group based PvP game.  Not a solo PvE game. There is no legitimate case to be made that a significant amount of solo PvE players are interested in Crowfall.   If you have such numbers then share them.  I think it’s a ludicrous argument.  

    You also make false assumptions and additional red herring statements like “You also make the bad assumption that what you’d like to see them do is what the majority would like them to do”. No, again that is your game, not mine. See above.

    If they had a much larger budget then SURE... add more stuff.  But they don’t. They have a fraction of the budget of the Amazons of the world.  They cannot be all things to all people.  They are already years behind schedule.   Focus on the core. Be successful.  Then build from there.



    It's not strawman to defend your position, and everything I've discussed is directly tied to my position. 

    Maybe I'm not phrasing it well or something, but they're making a very sound business decision.   No digital product targets a single demographic.  I'm sure it's my failing somewhere in explaining this, but what you're talking about just doesn't make good business sense.

    Any team that ran a project the way you're describing would fail.  Even indie projects have to think about audience diversification.

    Hatefull
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 840
    edited August 5
    TEKK3N said:
    Has this game launched yet, or is it one of those game which is in perpetual Early Access mode?
    Personally I can't be bothered by those games still in a limbo.

    In my opinion EA MMOs will never be successful as they spread their playerbase very thin throughout the years they are in EA mode.

    It’s in pre-alpha
    Still?
    On their website it says I can play now, there is no closed number. Anyone who buys the $199 pack can play it.
    It looks EA to me.

    Edit: I found this piece of information on their website.
    "About Early Access

    “Early Access” is a process that allows players to get a look at a game while it is still in the early stages of development. While games in early access are often very “buggy” and lack much of the content they need for launch, it can be quite an interesting (and educational) experience to see the behind-the-scenes development of a video game over time.

    Crowfall® offers players the chance to participate in Early Access. Our backers (i.e. players who donate pledges to help make Crowfall a reality) are assigned to “test groups” based on which backer pack they select. The general order of testing is: Pre-Alpha (Group 1, then 2), followed by Alpha (Group 1, then 2, then 3), followed by Beta (Group 1, then 2, then 3, etc.)"

    Definetly EA.


  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 554
    Linif said:
    Amazon didn't put together a Kickstarter and "Kickstart" their game with people's money intended to develop a game they pitched to the people. My point here being, Crowfall did and transparency to these people about goals, schedules, etc can and should be a fundamental requirement of this kind of model.

    Honestly, why isn't it? They owe their community (Yes, not legally. But I'm not talking legally.) some sort of debt for trusting in them to do this. Why can't they do their part and keep the community in the loop about these things?
    That's kind of what I'm saying, though.  They have.   They're WAY more open about their development than they would be had they followed the traditional model.   Hence New World vs Crowfall, traditional vs crowdfunded.  What you're saying isn't that they're not open, but that you think they should be more open than they are.  

    That's not an unfair point, but it's only a fair point if you don't gloss over the fact that you already are getting an incredibly open view of the project now.

    ...and I should point out that I really do empathize with the point, and it was a topic of conversation between the team and myself very early on.   I'd covered Shroud of the Avatar and Star Citizen by the time Crowfall came around and had seen several different versions of "open development."   ACE definitely drew some lines around what they were willing to share and what they weren't, and I even wrote an article about it (though, I forget which outlet it came out on).

    I'm not sure I agree or disagree with their position.  There are a lot of good reasons to have some barriers, as SotA found out, but then there's also a moral obligation to ensure you don't Ponzi your backers a la Star Citizen.  They're the ones who have to decide where that line is for them, though.  If they come out with a good product and then run another crowdfunded effort, you can decide whether you were happy in the end with the previous one and whether to back or not.  If enough people agree, they'll change what they're doing.
    Linif
  • jonp200jonp200 Member UncommonPosts: 453

    DMKano said:

    I backed this and CU.

    At this point I've just about lost all interest in both.

    Why? Endless updates without the actual finished product- i just dont care anymore



    Right there with you...
    Kyleran

    Seaspite
    Playing ESO on my X-Box


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,200
    edited August 5
    Red, your whole post is a dodge.  You continue to make up numbers to build strawman arguments.  Of COURSE if a dollar would get five times the retention doing something you would spend it there.  That is why you focus on the core.  Not on items to support people who are playing at off hours and supposedly  are looking for solo PvE in a group based PvP game. There are a lot of games that people can already play that have great solo PvE. Crowfall is highly unlikely to ever successfully lure people from those games.  It’s not meant to. At it’s heart it is a group based PvP game.  Not a solo PvE game. There is no legitimate case to be made that a significant amount of solo PvE players are interested in Crowfall.   If you have such numbers then share them.  I think it’s a ludicrous argument.  

    You also make false assumptions and additional red herring statements like “You also make the bad assumption that what you’d like to see them do is what the majority would like them to do”. No, again that is your game, not mine. See above.

    If they had a much larger budget then SURE... add more stuff.  But they don’t. They have a fraction of the budget of the Amazons of the world.  They cannot be all things to all people.  They are already years behind schedule.   Focus on the core. Be successful.  Then build from there.



    It's not strawman to defend your position, and everything I've discussed is directly tied to my position. 

    Maybe I'm not phrasing it well or something, but they're making a very sound business decision.   No digital product targets a single demographic.  I'm sure it's my failing somewhere in explaining this, but what you're talking about just doesn't make good business sense.

    Any team that ran a project the way you're describing would fail.  Even indie projects have to think about audience diversification.

    No Red.  You are being stubborn.   A startup business defines its core customer base and focuses on that until they prove to be successful. Amazon started with books, not healthcare and web services. I will say it again.  Clear as day since I seem to be failing at explaining the concept:

    No significant number of players are looking to play Crowfall as a solo PvE experience. There are already games that cater to that demographic.  Crowfall is not going to attract significant numbers of those players.

    And for the record, Strawman is defending your position against made up or falsely claimed attacks.  An example would be when I point out that a team with limited resources should focus on their core game and maximize the impact of those resources.   Your response was saying that if the company could get 5 times the retention per dollar by spending that on PvE solo players who play at off hours they should do that.   Well of course they should, nobody said they shouldn’t. But that “if” is based on a very wrong premise.  There is no 5 times retention return and it’s just more numbers you made up.  How about if I do the same?

     Artcraft should focus on their core because it will bring in 28 times more retention per dollar than spending it on an imaginary solo PvE off hour playerbase.  Don’t you agree?  I mean, college classes are taught around doing after the biggest return on your spend in video game development.  It’s obvious right?

    That is what it’s like discussing this with you.  It’s all made up numbers which are then tied to some obvious conclusions based on those numbers.

    Just so we are clear:  There is no significant amount of PvE focused solo , off hours players that would justify diverting development dollars in that direction, and if there were... then there would be enough players that they could group.  You started this discussion with your claim, so please show me some sort of data showing the demand for solo, off hours PvE in Crowfall. Quantify that demand for us so we can understand.  Not your gut.  Not some platitude about basic business.  But show us some sort of proof that Crowfall’s “Play2Crush, Get Good” playerbase has such a demand.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 554
    Kyleran said:
    18 months of course, this from their KSer.

    "The core module is estimated to be delivered by Winter 2016. First release (with partial functionality) will begin alpha testing in late Summer 2015."

    Perhaps a more recent update?

    "The team anticipates kicking off alpha testing at the end of the summer of 2018. After that, their march towards a beta phase will start."

    https://mmopulse.com/news/crowfall-soft-launch-in-2019-alpha-testing-in-2018-eventual-release-in-russia-cis-countries

    I could go on, but you get the point, expectations have been set by the developers since day one, and continuously broken.

    Now here you estimate they might be ready to move to alpha in the spring of 2020, but they aren't even willing to say so.

    Judging from the track records of CU, and SC looks like 7, 8 or more years is how long, if so CF fans might be waiting until 2022 or beyond.

    Not sure you backed the right horse.


    Fair point.   Their schedule has definitely slipped, though I'd argue in several cases it was really a term slip as much as timeline.

    There have definitely been delays, I think they ended up taking about six months longer to get combat worked out than they'd planned, for one.  It happens and there's not much you can do about it.

    I don't think you can have the conversation totally out of context, though.  To develop something on the scale that they're developing and with the size of their team, I'm not really that concerned.  Pillars of Eternity raised over $4mil in addition to investor capital and their game still took three years to come out after that, which of course doesn't count the development effort prior to the Kickstarter campaign and that I'm pretty sure they refactored from another failed project.  They have about 150-200 employees, though not all of them working on PoE.  So PoE in three years with a slightly larger team and CF in 6-ish.   Compare the delta in complexity.... and that's one of the reasons why I'm not particularly bothered.

    That said, completely fair to call them out on schedule slippage.  I always thought the schedule was too aggressive anyway, which maybe is why I don't care as much about them slipping.
  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 554
    Kyleran said:
    IMO this is the single worst trend in modern game development and is where much of the blame for the current state of gaming falls squarely in the lap of the consumer.

    When I recall how much crap Funcom got for the "lack of quality" of AOC at launch when it actually was hands downs better than almost any modern indie title to date its definitively a case of smh.

    We don't need better games, we need smarter consumers.

    :D


    lol  oh man.    You know how hacked off I was when I got past Tortage and into the "main game."  That was a day full of righteous sound and fury, I'll tell you.

    But yes, I would love to see a more educated consumer, but that's not likely to happen.  The market has spoken loudly and clearly that they want it now, even if it's not finished.
    Kyleran
  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 554
    lahnmir said:
    Neoyoshi said:
    At the end of the day, investing in Kickstarter projects is a gamble; and if only these projects would put a little bit of honesty in their introductions- Like: "This may fall apart and not happen, so be aware you may be throwing your money away, but thank you for the leap of faith."

    I have only personally witnessed ONE game project make it out of kickstarter, release, and actually be successful both financially and critically, and that one is Bloodstained: Ritual of the night.

    Perhaps it just comes down to work ethics and actual loyalty to a fanbase and it's consumers.

    Or maybe it's luck, you know- "Gambling"
    75%+ of my KS “gambling” has paid of in the form of a fully launched game, whether is was good or bad is besides the point. I wouldn’t call it luck at all.

    Some of my “gambling” was for:

    Grim Dawn
    Earthlock
    Divinity: OS
    Divinity:OS 2
    Insomnia
    Wasteland 2
    Tides of Numera
    Broken Age
    Hexx
    Shroud of the Avatar
    Balrum

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I can't even keep track of mine.  I've also backed several Hairbrained Scheme games, and they've all come out well.  I'd argue that purchasing Early Access or pre-ordering is really even the same thing.

    Have had a few not come through, though.  Hasn't happened often, but usually when the KS just fails outright.
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 77
    ronanx said:


    "For one, there are a lot of players (like me, for instance) who play at odd times and often alone due to work or family life. The game has to have systems for supporting solo players, and a rewarding PvE experience can be an important part of that."



    This actually does not make a lot of sense. If there are "a lot" of players who play at odd times then there should be "a lot" of players at those times. There are certainly "some" players who play at odd times. But building a game to accommodate the "some" is probably not a great idea when it comes to spending limited development resources.



    Your opinion can certainly be different, but to me... when you have limited resources you should target for the maximum benefit of the most potential players. I do not think solo players are their target audience. I do not mind the PvE adds, but they should stay in context of the greater group game. There should be large group objectives and small group objectives. I'm not really seeing Crowfall as a game that needs solo objectives.



    Unlimited budget and resources? SURE... but given the constraints they are under I would rather they focus on making the CORE game as good as possible.






    No it doesnt have to have rewards for solo players. The whole point of the game is to group up with people and conquer the other lands. If you don't have time for your hobby then maybe its not the hobby for you.
    If I log on to find no other players around on my faction free to group with me I'll log straight back out, is it really hardcore to sit around doing nothing in the hopes of others logging in? What are the chances of the person who logs in 10 minutes after me doing the same thing? If everyone who logs in has nothing to do unless they are lucky enough to have logged in when others are available how many people will stick around to even group with?
    KyleranOzmodan
  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 554
    Aenghas said:
    If I log on to find no other players around on my faction free to group with me I'll log straight back out, is it really hardcore to sit around doing nothing in the hopes of others logging in? What are the chances of the person who logs in 10 minutes after me doing the same thing? If everyone who logs in has nothing to do unless they are lucky enough to have logged in when others are available how many people will stick around to even group with?
    Don't worry, there'll be a game loop for you.   The game is specifically geared around PvP, but that doesn't mean there's not room for solo/off-peak players like us.   Especially if you're into crafting and such.   Just like all the best PvP games, CF will have an economy game loop that provides room for us, too.

    Specifically, they've added some PvE content, and that should be the answer you were looking for.  While it's directly in place to solve a number of game gaps, it ALSO happens to fill in some needed content for folks who tend to play off-peak hours or who prefer to go it alone.   Plus, the cool thing about their system is that they'll probably even run Dying Worlds (servers) that have rule sets specifically designed to make solo play more viable.

    I suspect you'll be good, but of course that's a subjective position and your mileage will vary.
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,234
    Red, your whole post is a dodge.  You continue to make up numbers to build strawman arguments.  Of COURSE if a dollar would get five times the retention doing something you would spend it there.  That is why you focus on the core.  Not on items to support people who are playing at off hours and supposedly  are looking for solo PvE in a group based PvP game. There are a lot of games that people can already play that have great solo PvE. Crowfall is highly unlikely to ever successfully lure people from those games.  It’s not meant to. At it’s heart it is a group based PvP game.  Not a solo PvE game. There is no legitimate case to be made that a significant amount of solo PvE players are interested in Crowfall.   If you have such numbers then share them.  I think it’s a ludicrous argument.  

    You also make false assumptions and additional red herring statements like “You also make the bad assumption that what you’d like to see them do is what the majority would like them to do”. No, again that is your game, not mine. See above.

    If they had a much larger budget then SURE... add more stuff.  But they don’t. They have a fraction of the budget of the Amazons of the world.  They cannot be all things to all people.  They are already years behind schedule.   Focus on the core. Be successful.  Then build from there.



    It's not strawman to defend your position, and everything I've discussed is directly tied to my position. 

    Maybe I'm not phrasing it well or something, but they're making a very sound business decision.   No digital product targets a single demographic.  I'm sure it's my failing somewhere in explaining this, but what you're talking about just doesn't make good business sense.

    Any team that ran a project the way you're describing would fail.  Even indie projects have to think about audience diversification.

    No Red.  You are being stubborn.   A startup business defines its core customer base and focuses on that until they prove to be successful. Amazon started with books, not healthcare and web services. I will say it again.  Clear as day since I seem to be failing at explaining the concept:

    No significant number of players are looking to play Crowfall as a solo PvE experience. There are already games that cater to that demographic.  Crowfall is not going to attract significant numbers of those players.

    And for the record, Strawman is defending your position against made up or falsely claimed attacks.  An example would be when I point out that a team with limited resources should focus on their core game and maximize the impact of those resources.   Your response was saying that if the company could get 5 times the retention per dollar by spending that on PvE solo players who play at off hours they should do that.   Well of course they should, nobody said they shouldn’t. But that “if” is based on a very wrong premise.  There is no 5 times retention return and it’s just more numbers you made up.  How about if I do the same?

     Artcraft should focus on their core because it will bring in 28 times more retention per dollar than spending it on an imaginary solo PvE off hour playerbase.  Don’t you agree?  I mean, college classes are taught around doing after the biggest return on your spend in video game development.  It’s obvious right?

    That is what it’s like discussing this with you.  It’s all made up numbers which are then tied to some obvious conclusions based on those numbers.

    Just so we are clear:  There is no significant amount of PvE focused solo , off hours players that would justify diverting development dollars in that direction, and if there were... then there would be enough players that they could group.  You started this discussion with your claim, so please show me some sort of data showing the demand for solo, off hours PvE in Crowfall. Quantify that demand for us so we can understand.  Not your gut.  Not some platitude about basic business.  But show us some sort of proof that Crowfall’s “Play2Crush, Get Good” playerbase has such a demand.
    I play the game now, this is what is being asked for.  I do not have numbers to post, nor do I need them since your argument is based on conjecture and opinion. People that play, off Peak get bored trying to throw themselves at walls solo, or in small groups. The intent is to use PvE to focus on preparing for the weekend so one can be better prepared for PVP and sieges.

    Furthermore, using Amazon is a great example. CF has been in "pre-alpha" for over a year now and they listen to their player base and make changes based on that, or as Red pointed out, based on sounds business principals. Amazon was treading into unexplored waters and based on feedback from customers and the market, did the same thing.

    Also, Strawman is pretty much exactly what you have been doing. The only stubborn person here is you.
    Red_ThomasOzmodancheeba

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • ShinyFlygonShinyFlygon Member UncommonPosts: 36
    I remember a time over four years ago when I very nearly backed this game.

    My goodness, I'm so glad I changed my mind!
  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 144
    Linif said:
    Amazon didn't put together a Kickstarter and "Kickstart" their game with people's money intended to develop a game they pitched to the people. My point here being, Crowfall did and transparency to these people about goals, schedules, etc can and should be a fundamental requirement of this kind of model.

    Honestly, why isn't it? They owe their community (Yes, not legally. But I'm not talking legally.) some sort of debt for trusting in them to do this. Why can't they do their part and keep the community in the loop about these things?
    That's kind of what I'm saying, though.  They have.   They're WAY more open about their development than they would be had they followed the traditional model.   Hence New World vs Crowfall, traditional vs crowdfunded.  What you're saying isn't that they're not open, but that you think they should be more open than they are.  

    That's not an unfair point, but it's only a fair point if you don't gloss over the fact that you already are getting an incredibly open view of the project now.

    ...and I should point out that I really do empathize with the point, and it was a topic of conversation between the team and myself very early on.   I'd covered Shroud of the Avatar and Star Citizen by the time Crowfall came around and had seen several different versions of "open development."   ACE definitely drew some lines around what they were willing to share and what they weren't, and I even wrote an article about it (though, I forget which outlet it came out on).

    I'm not sure I agree or disagree with their position.  There are a lot of good reasons to have some barriers, as SotA found out, but then there's also a moral obligation to ensure you don't Ponzi your backers a la Star Citizen.  They're the ones who have to decide where that line is for them, though.  If they come out with a good product and then run another crowdfunded effort, you can decide whether you were happy in the end with the previous one and whether to back or not.  If enough people agree, they'll change what they're doing.
    Okay, I think I'm following what you're trying to say.

    Here's the crux of my issue with a "lack of transparency" with the game: What're the dates for Pre-Alpha finish, Alpha finish, Beta finish, and Full release?

    I'm not even looking for a set in stone date, I know those aren't realistic at this stage. An estimation would temporarily sate my need to know, a date that puts a light at the end of the tunnel.

    When I don't see developers thinking of the end of a phase, I get nervous because it appears as though they can't see an end to it. Maybe they no longer want to give dates because they no longer want to disappoint the community? I can, grudgingly, accept that as a valid excuse for not keeping the community in the loop. But I haven't seen that yet, which makes me wonder: Are they too focused on expanding the game and in doing so risk losing the community by not moving development along or are they so mired in problems there is no end in sight?

    Every time I revisit the forums on their website or here, I can rarely get any information. Transparency on development in the form of videos and blogs are great. It's lovely to be able to see some of the work being done. But I can't remember the last time I was given a date or any semblance of an idea when this game is going to be available without having to take a leap of faith and spend money on it, without an idea of when I'll see that "investment" come to fruition (A released, playable game).

    Sorry, just needed to whine for a bit.
    BruceYeeRed_Thomas
  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 554
    Linif said:
    Okay, I think I'm following what you're trying to say.

    Here's the crux of my issue with a "lack of transparency" with the game: What're the dates for Pre-Alpha finish, Alpha finish, Beta finish, and Full release?

    I'm not even looking for a set in stone date, I know those aren't realistic at this stage. An estimation would temporarily sate my need to know, a date that puts a light at the end of the tunnel.

    When I don't see developers thinking of the end of a phase, I get nervous because it appears as though they can't see an end to it. Maybe they no longer want to give dates because they no longer want to disappoint the community? I can, grudgingly, accept that as a valid excuse for not keeping the community in the loop. But I haven't seen that yet, which makes me wonder: Are they too focused on expanding the game and in doing so risk losing the community by not moving development along or are they so mired in problems there is no end in sight?

    Every time I revisit the forums on their website or here, I can rarely get any information. Transparency on development in the form of videos and blogs are great. It's lovely to be able to see some of the work being done. But I can't remember the last time I was given a date or any semblance of an idea when this game is going to be available without having to take a leap of faith and spend money on it, without an idea of when I'll see that "investment" come to fruition (A released, playable game).

    Sorry, just needed to whine for a bit.
    Ah hah.   That's incredibly valid criticism and I can say with high degree of confidence that the developers have seen it.  Though, I don't have great answers for the same reasons you don't, they don't really exist.  

    In part, they don't exist because that's just the nature of game development and you can't say precisely how long it'll take to invent and implement new ideas.  You also have this constant innovation going on that changes how you planned to do things slightly and that causes additional delays (and sometimes also saves time).  I've heard timelines kicked around, but that was in confidence and I wouldn't want to violate that trust.

    I would say that looking at their pace of development, the publicly stated objectives, and where they're currently at...  You'll get to a place that _I_ would consider launch candidate in the next several months.   They won't say that because they don't want to call something finished until it's perfect, but the market is clearly happy with a point between here and there.

    Another reason you're probably not seeing what you're looking for is also the market's fault, though.  As you can see in this thread, anything the devs say can and will be used against them in the court of public opinion.  Early unrealistic timelines are used to beat them about the head with some periodicity.  They're gun-shy about making the same mistake again.

    ...and you should whine all you like.   That's what forums and flame wars are all about.  =P
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,557
    Why are they monetizing the "block" system? I thought that was a core feature of the game.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
Sign In or Register to comment.