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If old school MMOs were better....why aren't they still the most popular?

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  • MrYukuzMrYukuz Member CommonPosts: 2
    das sehe ich auch so , leider gehöre wohl auch mit zur aussterbende Art von Gamer  :)
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,303
    I play games for a while and then I move on.  It's not that I don't like the old ones anymore or that I like the new ones better than the old ones.

    For me, it's more of an evolutionary process as opposed to a deliberative move based on this or that criteria.  It's hard for me to go back and play most older games though.  Yes the graphics, but more than that, the UIs tend to be poor IMI, compared to more modern games.
    AlBQuirky

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,879
    Iselin said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    RPG also comes down to classes themselves as well. When is the last time you play a MMO that a class mattered? My guess its not one thats come out in the past 10 years. Every class can be swapped for another and the label of Tank, Healer and DPS has become watered down as well. 

    Used to be, Healers, DPS, Tank, Support/CC. Gamers often picking classes they liked for the role and need of each class. Picking a class also means you needed to be highly skilled as a gamer to play that role. Walking into a team and seeing an enchanter or a bard, you knew how that changed the dynamic of your team and adjusted your play style. Someone new joins your team in a modern MMO, it does not change anyone's play style. Keep mashing the say hotkeys. 
    I'm not so sure I miss those old days of class/role locking that came with either no respec opportunity or very limited ones.

    Considering how long it used to take to level characters in those old games you could put a lot of time and effort into developing a class/role before you even got to do the kind of content where you finally figured out how the class was supposed to be played... and then you were stuck with it.

    Having to redo the grind all over again for the class/role you now knew fit your style better was a pain in the ass.

    Rift was actually a breath of fresh air in that regard giving each class many different "souls" that supported a variety of play styles and roles.

    And modern MMOs like ESO continue that trend which is IMO a good thing.

    I'm also not crazy about the DPS AOE spam fests a lot of the newer MMOs heavily cater to but that's a different issue from class/role locking.

    Class flexibility is a very good thing. AOE spam everywhere all the time is not.
    Lineage was my first MMO. I still love that game. Hitting level 50 was a major milestone. At 48 - 51 the xp curve was brutal. I was lvl 49.85 (level dot percent to next level) and died. I lost the 5% xp and just logged out. It would have taken me weeks and weeks to get that back and I realized at that moment how stupid it was and just got off the treadmill. No plans to ever do that again.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,149
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    RPG also comes down to classes themselves as well. When is the last time you play a MMO that a class mattered? My guess its not one thats come out in the past 10 years. Every class can be swapped for another and the label of Tank, Healer and DPS has become watered down as well. 

    Used to be, Healers, DPS, Tank, Support/CC. Gamers often picking classes they liked for the role and need of each class. Picking a class also means you needed to be highly skilled as a gamer to play that role. Walking into a team and seeing an enchanter or a bard, you knew how that changed the dynamic of your team and adjusted your play style. Someone new joins your team in a modern MMO, it does not change anyone's play style. Keep mashing the say hotkeys. 
    I'm not so sure I miss those old days of class/role locking that came with either no respec opportunity or very limited ones.

    Considering how long it used to take to level characters in those old games you could put a lot of time and effort into developing a class/role before you even got to do the kind of content where you finally figured out how the class was supposed to be played... and then you were stuck with it.

    Having to redo the grind all over again for the class/role you now knew fit your style better was a pain in the ass.

    Rift was actually a breath of fresh air in that regard giving each class many different "souls" that supported a variety of play styles and roles.

    And modern MMOs like ESO continue that trend which is IMO a good thing.

    I'm also not crazy about the DPS AOE spam fests a lot of the newer MMOs heavily cater to but that's a different issue from class/role locking.

    Class flexibility is a very good thing. AOE spam everywhere all the time is not.
    Lineage was my first MMO. I still love that game. Hitting level 50 was a major milestone. At 48 - 51 the xp curve was brutal. I was lvl 49.85 (level dot percent to next level) and died. I lost the 5% xp and just logged out. It would have taken me weeks and weeks to get that back and I realized at that moment how stupid it was and just got off the treadmill. No plans to ever do that again.
    They were all more or less the same with respect to insane grinds back in those days although Lineage did have the reputation of being especially brutal... lucky you :)
    Torval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,586
    MrYukuz said:
    das sehe ich auch so , leider gehöre wohl auch mit zur aussterbende Art von Gamer  :)
    I apologize, but I took 1 semester of German in college and that was decades ago. This is an English message board, so if you could respond in English, your posts may contribute more :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,879
    AlBQuirky said:
    MrYukuz said:
    das sehe ich auch so , leider gehöre wohl auch mit zur aussterbende Art von Gamer  :)
    I apologize, but I took 1 semester of German in college and that was decades ago. This is an English message board, so if you could respond in English, your posts may contribute more :)
    "I agree with that, unfortunately, I am also one of the dying kind of gamers"

    AlBQuirky
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,788
    edited July 22
    MrYukuz said:
    das sehe ich auch so , leider gehöre wohl auch mit zur aussterbende Art von Gamer  :)

    Wenn Sie google translate und copy paste English verwenden, können wir Sie verstehen. Ich spreche kein deutsch aber ich habe nur google benutzt. 

    Google translate is a wonderful thing....use it dude ;)
    jimmywolf
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 435
    Google translate is a wonderful thing....use it dude ;)
    Or he could just type in English so we don't have to cut and paste his post into Google translate, then type a reply in Google translate, then cut and paste it for him, and only him, to see... unless of course you expect me to cut and paste your Google translate hackjob German post to understand your reply.
    jimmywolf
  • AyinAyin Member UncommonPosts: 19
    I didn't really quit playing the old school MMO I played (FFXI)... it quit me. They dropped Playstation2 support and the method I was using to pay for my subscription (had to start buying Crysta or something through their online store? Anyway, wouldn't let me, so goodbye.)

    I didn't try too hard to figure out a way to keep paying anyway, because the direction the game was going wasn't to my liking. (Leveling up through gear levels, rather than experience levels after 99... which essentially meant group-content boss killing just to hope to get the item that I wanted to drop to "level up", because stat increases were tied to gear... I mean... yuk... and most of my guild had quit long before then. Abyssea killed many guilds, and then they returned to guild-style encounters at such a fundamentally bad level? Really? So I didn't even give a second glance at FFXIV after that debacle.)

    I solo 99% of the time in all games I play, MMO or not, when given a choice. I play a lot of Warframe these days, but even that is irking me now, with the change to melee combat and the idiocy of their new free battlepass thing they call Nightwave.

    All this has just pushed me further and further away from "gaming" and back to my hobbies of drawing and writing, and self-teaching myself how to code simple games, possibly in flash... because if nobody is making the games I want to play, I'll just make those games myself. :)
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 990
    AlBQuirky said:
    Darksworm said:
    Because real risk vs reward doesnt appeal to everyone.  We liked the old MMORPG because it was hard and the community was good.  if you acted up you didnt get groups anymore soloing was hard so it required for people to not be asshats.  People like the new ones because they are basically single player games masking as mmos you dont make any real bonds with people so its fun and easy to be a douche.
    Old School MMOs weren't hard.  They were not more difficult than the current ones.  They were just filled with time sinks and people equated "time consuming" with difficult.  The two are not the same thing.

    EQ was never a hard game, it just had strict requirements built into the gameplay and content design.

    And it was balanced in a way that made it take as long as the developers could muster to achieve anything in the game.

    They loosened up on this later (especially 2003 onwards), where the game basically became not unlike what WoW and EQ2 were at launched - except with far less actual Quest-based content in it.
    I disagree. Though EQ had its fair share of "time sinks", they were mainly at upper levels, trying for that top gear like the class item epic quests.

    However, at the base, the old MMORPGs were much more difficult in a few ways. "Chance of Failure" is a major one. Today's MMOs have no chance of failure, except getting beat in a fight. You hit 100% at what you aim at. You block or dodge 100% if your timing is right. There is no randomness to fights. You have to think quick when your big, awesome attack misses. "CRAP! What do I now?"

    Another way is "Mob Mentality." EQ had their mobs using blind, root, fear, and charm spells. Losing control of your own character is unheard of in today's MMOs. Along with this, a mob that "con'd white" (equal level) with you had a 50/50 chance of beating you. Nothing like that now in today's MMOs. Now sprinkle into low level zones mid to high level monsters. Not easy at all, but missing from today's "safe place" MMOs. The reason people grouped was because XP came faster that way. You could solo even con monsters, but it would take forever if you won, and then you had to heal/recover.

    Which leads to the last one, which could be thought of as a "time sink" labeled "Downtime." After a fight, you're hurt. You're tired. Old MMORPGs brought that into their games. New MMOs have lost that, making it easy to run your way through a game in no time. Out of combat healing rates have skyrocketed. EQ had a rate of 1HP/6 seconds (I think), and if sitting down tripled(?), maybe (taxing my memory here). I don't think there was any out of combat mana regen, meditating being the only way to get that back. I could be wrong on the specific numbers, but the ideas are there.

    Again, EQ did have its share of time sinks (bosses on timers, random loot drops, etc...), but combat wasn't one of them. For me, difficulty came in the randomness of everything you did, thanks to RNG :)

    PS: Of course, what one player finds difficult, others will say, "Easy peasy!"
    Level 39 was a Hell Level in EQ that took 5x longer than 38  That isnt a high level.

    Waiting for boats. Corpse recovery. XP grinding, etc  Those are all time sinks  Camping the same MOB for drops is a time sink. Searching for Quillmane was a time sink. Waiting for boats or Nexus ports was a time sink.

    RNG is not difficulty. Its Lottery  You're basically doing what I stated everyone does, and trying to act like you aren't. 

    EQ was a simple, easy game.

    Tons of games have fears, roots, and stunts on MOBs  That is FAR from unheard of  you really sound a bit clueless about this stuff, or you have barely played what this genre has to offer. 

    In today's games MOBs can dodge hits, I interrupt spells, etc. WTF are you talking about?
    AlBQuirky
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 990
    What EQ had that modern MMOs lack is a mature gaming community and a larger RP niche. Few people RP these days, or even know how... plus, its awkward as hell to RP with Voice Comms, for obvious reasons.

    The people you meet are generally disposable, because most people (as a proportion of the market) aren't as dedicated to the games as they used to be.

    Current consumers are very fickle, and are inundated with choices/alternatives. 
    AlBQuirky
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 990
    I don't know if I would classify WoW as an old school MMO. I see it more as the beginning of the end. WoW is the MMO that new MMOs model themselves after to make money, not necessarily produce a good game.
    This is correct. WoW may be "classic" by date in MMO standards, but when you look at the shift in the genre WoW made, that is where the distinction between classic and modern should be made. Prior to WoW MMORPGS were trying to figure out what they wanted to be with each on having their own take on it. Due to WoWs success with the masses everyone since has tried to replicate the success rather than create another shift or make their own mark in MMO history.
    Age of Conan, Eve Online, Warhammer Online, Guild Wars 2?

    I think you're wrong  

    The most popular non-WoW MMO today, FFXIV, is actually the most like WoW. Irony?
    Gdemami
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,879
    Old MMOs weren't better. They were better in the context of the time period more so than modern or classic MMOs fit in now. MMOs are essentially undead now. They'll shamble along, decaying vestiges of their former selves like a never ending final season of TWD. *shudder*
    vandal5627AlBQuirky
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,794
    edited July 24
    Torval said:
    Old MMOs weren't better. They were better in the context of the time period more so than modern or classic MMOs fit in now. MMOs are essentially undead now. They'll shamble along, decaying vestiges of their former selves like a never ending final season of TWD. *shudder*
    I think they were better for a number of reasons. Big one was that the game was designed around needing people, friends and guildies. Crafting, leveling, dungeons, raids all needed people to get anywhere. Even EQ1's Epic weapon quest made long term friends I will never forget and still talk to. Modern MMOs have stripped most of that away for convenience and time. I think a MMO could bring back the strong community and do it in ways you dont spend hours looking for teams. If a game does that and the game is fun and has content thats engaging. It will win my business over anything else. 
    LimnicGdemamiultimateduckAlBQuirkyjimmywolfCatibrie



  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,586
    Nanfoodle said:
    Torval said:
    Old MMOs weren't better. They were better in the context of the time period more so than modern or classic MMOs fit in now. MMOs are essentially undead now. They'll shamble along, decaying vestiges of their former selves like a never ending final season of TWD. *shudder*
    I think they were better for a number of reasons. Big one was that the game was designed around needing people, friends and guildies. Crafting, leveling, dungeons, raids all needed people to get anywhere. Even EQ1's Epic weapon quest made long term friends I will never forget and still talk to. Modern MMOs have stripped most of that away for convenience and time. I think a MMO could bring back the strong community and do it in ways you dont spend hours looking for teams. If a game does that and the game is fun and has content thats engaging. It will win my business over anything else. 
    Yet players today, for some unknown reason, log into MMOs and desire a single player game. They want to do what they want, when they want and forget that thousands of other players also play the game. Ask any one of them and they'll say something about "my game", as if no other player plays it.

    "Time sinks" are what "go-go-go-GOERS!" call what used to immerse us into the games. I agree some of them were silly, like random Boss loot for a specific item. "Oh, sorry heroes. I left the Sword of Godliness in my other pants! hurhurhur..."

    Waiting for boats in EQ is a prime example. "How dare those boats NOT be where I want them when I want them! What is this "schedule thing?" Smart players took note of when they arrived and where and timed their arrival so the wait was negligible. Or, they pulled out their fishing poles and made of use of their downtime... er "time sink."
    Gdemami

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,020
    edited July 25
    Modern MMORPG focus on disposable and privacy contents .
    while old MMORPG focus on repeatable and public contents.

    That's why old MMORPG bring the genre to it golden age while modern MMORPG failed to compare with other online game genre like MOBA or Battle royale .
    People like repeatable tasks , public fame and bug free better graphic .

    What do people  want ? shine pretty gears to collect and drama to enjoy


    GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • GitmixGitmix Member UncommonPosts: 603
    edited July 25
    Newer generations of gamers need instant gratification. Old school MMOs are about working long and hard on objectives and earning that gratifying feeling at the end of it all.
    If old school MMOs aren't popular with younger crowds today it's because the gameplay doesn't work for them.
    It has very little to do with games being better or worse, it's about the mentality of gamers having changed.
    GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,165
    I dont' even play newer generation mmorpg now becaues it is too time consuming.  Can't imagine how "old school" mmorpg are...

    Even mobile games are taking 3-4 hours of my time everyday...


  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Q. If old school MMOs were better....why aren't they still the most popular?
    A.  Because that's literally the only game you played.
    AlBQuirky
  • LevityyLevityy Newbie CommonPosts: 5
    edited July 25
    Popularity does not necessarily mean quality. It's all subjective anyway. Times change, people change, society changes. Therefore so do tastes.

    Just look at WoW. A lot of people who probably once voted for LFG and LFR have realised they might have been too hasty there. Genres change as well, back and forth.

    Is Taylor Swift (sorry I'm out of the loop) the best musician?
    Are the Harry Potter books the best fantasy books ever written?
    Is Fortnite the best game ever made?

    For all we know this fad of instant-gratification games will continue, then out of the blue an attractive game appears with some more old-school mechanics; and the cycle continues.
    GdemamiScotAlBQuirky
    Currently playing: Ultima Online - Eve Online (both for the first time)
    Formerly played: WoW, GW2, Darkfall, Darkfall UW, Legends of Aria, FFXIV
    Old patterns unravel, their disparate threads coiling, searching anew.
  • NevereverlandNevereverland Member UncommonPosts: 137
    AlBQuirky
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,782
    edited July 25
    Let's wait and see what WoW Classic does......Of course, that assumes that Blizzard can actually replicate the original experience to a large degree. Personally, I have my doubts they can.  But, assuming they do actually pull off "Classic WoW". We will see how it fares.  And then we can do some real comparisons to old vs. new......even though I consider WoW to be of a somewhat newer design, it's still closer to the older experience.

    Of course, if Blizzard pulls a bait'n'switch like Trion did with AA and monetizes the S**T out of this thing, then all bets are off.
    AlBQuirky
  • vandal5627vandal5627 Member UncommonPosts: 788
    edited July 25
    The closest thing i see to old school is Saga of Lucemia and Pantheon, I really do hope they succeed in what they are doing so people that like old school systems have something to enjoy.
    SovrathAlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,477
    Levityy said:
    Popularity does not necessarily mean quality. It's all subjective anyway. Times change, people change, society changes. Therefore so do tastes.

    Just look at WoW. A lot of people who probably once voted for LFG and LFR have realised they might have been too hasty there. Genres change as well, back and forth.

    Is Taylor Swift (sorry I'm out of the loop) the best musician?
    Are the Harry Potter books the best fantasy books ever written?
    Is Fortnite the best game ever made?

    For all we know this fad of instant-gratification games will continue, then out of the blue an attractive game appears with some more old-school mechanics; and the cycle continues.
    hmmmm ...

    I'm sure a lot of people who "voted" (was there an actual vote?) for Looking for Group and Looking for Raid actually do like it. And maybe people who didn't "vote for them" realize that they are da bomb.

    So I think your statement for it being subjective is just what it is.

    Taylor Swift? I'm sure she is one of the best musicians for country pop. Without a doubt.
    Harry Potter? Apparently it captured the imaginations of so many people that when the last book dropped Harvard had a whole event that went way into the evening for everyone in the area.

    Popularity might not necessarily equal quality but quality doesn't necessarily mean "good."
    vandal5627TorvalAlBQuirky



  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,188
    Levityy said:

    Is Taylor Swift (sorry I'm out of the loop) the best musician?

    Talk smack about Taylor and watch her write a song about you lol. 
    vandal5627SovrathcheyaneTorvalAlBQuirkyultimateduck

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

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