I told you so

danwest58 · July 2019

https://www.legendsofaria.com/feature-spotlight-ruleset-changes/?fbclid=IwAR2hLvfSoSMCTaBHglo31ptNARezewZdpIFV8YdB6n7BHeGlTFHx_OpvZc0

With the move from Shards Online to Legends of Aria, we tasked ourselves with the goal of attempting to bring a return to open PvP in a full loot sandbox environment. This was a shift from our original design and one which we added the disclaimer that this was founded upon a desire to bring an environment which appealed to all players. We have learnt a great deal in this time and all of our experiences are telling us the same thing. To understand where we’re headed when we launch next month, we need to take a bit of a step back in time to understand how we came to this place and the upcoming changes.

Rewind almost 20 years in the MMO-space. The founding MMOs (one in particular) have not since been matched for bringing the wolves and sheep together under one roof for a gigantic feast. For those unfamiliar, the concept is that playerkillers are the wolves; intercepting the large flocks of sheep at every opportunity whom are going about their business. Back in the glory days, due to a perfect storm of excitement for the new MMO platform (and the absolute lack of alternatives), there was much feasting.

We don’t deny that that was fun, we were there, but in 2019 we have to face some realities, mainly that the landscape has changed, making this scenario an impossibility to recreate and extremely alienating in execution. We’re not going to go into the details of game theory as to why this is the case and may cover this in upcoming blogs for those interested. We put a great deal of time into decisions like these and can talk about it for days.

danwest58 · July 2019

I told these developers so and I told these forums so. OWPVP with Full Loot is not viable today at all. The Developers for LoA are seeing the writing on the wall and see that their remake of UO pre Tram is NEVER going to work. People dont like to waste their time in games like these. Now they are making nearly the entire world Protected so no ganking occurs.

Panther2103 · July 2019

danwest58 said:

I told these developers so and I told these forums so. OWPVP with Full Loot is not viable today at all. The Developers for LoA are seeing the writing on the wall and see that their remake of UO pre Tram is NEVER going to work. People dont like to waste their time in games like these. Now they are making nearly the entire world Protected so no ganking occurs.

I think it can work with the direction they are going. Wilderness type areas that are open PvP sound fine and work in games like Runescape, although it definitely is a drastic change to the overall games ideas.

Tiller · July 2019

danwest58 said:

I told these developers so and I told these forums so. OWPVP with Full Loot is not viable today at all. The Developers for LoA are seeing the writing on the wall and see that their remake of UO pre Tram is NEVER going to work. People dont like to waste their time in games like these. Now they are making nearly the entire world Protected so no ganking occurs.

Yeah, back in the day it was just a thing, times have changed.

alkarionlog · July 2019

mostly because one little thing, in UO example, tell me how hard it was to replace a gear you lost? the time you spend to craft, if you didn't already had a piece stored for it, nowadays you wear drops, who most of time require you rerun the instanced dungeon several times, so then you lost it because a monster/player kills you, yeah that won't work

one rule is FFA is ok, FFA with make you lose what you have start to be a problem, even more if gear is not easy, and nowadays game design is gated on hard to aquire gear

Kyleran · July 2019

danwest58 said:

I told these developers so and I told these forums so. OWPVP with Full Loot is not viable today at all. The Developers for LoA are seeing the writing on the wall and see that their remake of UO pre Tram is NEVER going to work. People dont like to waste their time in games like these. Now they are making nearly the entire world Protected so no ganking occurs.

While I agree with this I'm not sure why you feel like this is some sort of great revelation here.

We professional carebears have long believed unrestricted FFA Full loot PVP is a surefire path to failure, so nothing new to see here.

Face it, the "sheep" learned....even if a lot of game devs still fail to grasp this truth.

moshra · July 2019

i tOlD yOu sO!

You act as if full loot open world PVP was the only problem this game has had.

Oh, if only they would have listened to you, this game would have been the WoW killer... *sigh*

Maybe the game is failing because it's a bad game.

Linif · July 2019

What an age we live in. Directors listening and acting on fans feedback (Sonic the Hedgehog movie for those that somehow haven't heard yet). Game Devs made a massive mistake, owned up to it and are going to change what was a massive aspect of the game.

Next Blizzard will stop their "No fun allowed" campaign and Star Citizen will finish it's full release!

Sovrath · July 2019

danwest58 said:

https://www.legendsofaria.com/feature-spotlight-ruleset-changes/?fbclid=IwAR2hLvfSoSMCTaBHglo31ptNARezewZdpIFV8YdB6n7BHeGlTFHx_OpvZc0

I say good for them for trying. Not many people have the ability to even start a project let alone finish one and not many people have the stomach to try to create something that is not popular.

A shame they couldn't be successful with what they wanted to do but dems the breaks.

Lobotomist · July 2019

Basically Full Loot open PVP games, are bullying simulators. I didnt like bullysin school, nor did I ever have wish of becoming one. Maybe people that had dreams of being bully enjoy this type of games. I enjoy fair fights.

The game that makes me lose all my gear to some virtual bully, forcing me to grind over and over again to replace something I allready got - is the game that does not value my time

And being working dad, my free time is precious,

sumdumguy1 · July 2019

For the record, 7 years ago on this site, I predicted someone would post an I told you so thread. I think I might change my name to Nostradumbass, although I will admit my current name sumdumguy does fit nicely as well.

Sovrath · July 2019

MisterZebub said:

Kyleran said:

danwest58 said:

I told these developers so and I told these forums so. OWPVP with Full Loot is not viable today at all. The Developers for LoA are seeing the writing on the wall and see that their remake of UO pre Tram is NEVER going to work. People dont like to waste their time in games like these. Now they are making nearly the entire world Protected so no ganking occurs.

While I agree with this I'm not sure why you feel like this is some sort of great revelation here.

We professional carebears have long believed unrestricted FFA Full loot PVP is a surefire path to failure, so nothing new to see here.

Face it, the "sheep" learned....even if a lot of game devs still fail to grasp this truth.

Hell I love unrestricted FFA Full loot PVP games, ... I can't wrap my head around the idea of why these game developers haven't got the memo on that yet.

Because of your first statement.

Mikeha · July 2019

I am all in for open world pvp but no thanks to full loot.

danwest58 · July 2019

moshra said:

i tOlD yOu sO!

You act as if full loot open world PVP was the only problem this game has had.

Oh, if only they would have listened to you, this game would have been the WoW killer... *sigh*

Maybe the game is failing because it's a bad game.

First there will never be a WOW killer period. Blizzard killed WOW.

As someone who played UO back in 1998 had they listened to me yes they would have had a better game. Problem is the developers for 2 years kept telling people to stop being carebears and become better. Yet they were blinded to the fact that Pre Tram UO really was not all it was cracked up to be. They tried to make that game when players could have just played on a private UO server. Had they listen to me they would have never focused on OW PVP loot game. They would have focused on what made UO good PRE Pub 16 and went that route then added things like Champ spawns. But they focused heavily on the OW PVP stuff and screwed themselves.

Yet I was told to GO BACK TO WOW and leave good games for good players. Now they see that well that is not a good marketing plan. Maybe they should have listened a bit more to Constructive feedback. Which btw was given time and time again by many players. Yet just like SOTA did they listened to Whales and fucked their game up.

Sovrath · July 2019

danwest58 said:

moshra said:

i tOlD yOu sO!

You act as if full loot open world PVP was the only problem this game has had.

Oh, if only they would have listened to you, this game would have been the WoW killer... *sigh*

Maybe the game is failing because it's a bad game.

First there will never be a WOW killer period. Blizzard killed WOW.

As someone who played UO back in 1998 had they listened to me yes they would have had a better game. Problem is the developers for 2 years kept telling people to stop being carebears and become better. Yet they were blinded to the fact that Pre Tram UO really was not all it was cracked up to be. They tried to make that game when players could have just played on a private UO server. Had they listen to me they would have never focused on OW PVP loot game. They would have focused on what made UO good PRE Pub 16 and went that route then added things like Champ spawns. But they focused heavily on the OW PVP stuff and screwed themselves.

Yet I was told to GO BACK TO WOW and leave good games for good players. Now they see that well that is not a good marketing plan. Maybe they should have listened a bit more to Constructive feedback. Which btw was given time and time again by many players. Yet just like SOTA did they listened to Whales and fucked their game up.

Sorry buddy but who are you that they should have listened to you? Are you a developer with many games under your belt or do you work in the field? Or perhaps a consultant?

Is there something about you that puts great weight toward what you say? Serious question.

danwest58 · July 2019

Panther2103 said:

danwest58 said:

I told these developers so and I told these forums so. OWPVP with Full Loot is not viable today at all. The Developers for LoA are seeing the writing on the wall and see that their remake of UO pre Tram is NEVER going to work. People dont like to waste their time in games like these. Now they are making nearly the entire world Protected so no ganking occurs.

I think it can work with the direction they are going. Wilderness type areas that are open PvP sound fine and work in games like Runescape, although it definitely is a drastic change to the overall games ideas.

I agree Panther. It could work, the problem is I think its far too late. Most players will not go back to a game like this when players dealt with such negativity from developers. I suggested to them to either have PVP and PVE servers and allow players to move between them or have a Fel and Tram like UO did. When you have developers telling you to go back to WOW Carebear you tend to say yea these Developers lack any respect for customers. The problem is the developers spend so much time with the karma system and rebuilding it 3 or 4 times if I remember that it hurt their chances with this game. Its like when Rift got the P2P server, it was like little too late. People were turned off by the cash shop then by the bugs on the P2P server.

Gutlard · July 2019

Carebear stare!

Gut Out!

danwest58 · July 2019

Sovrath said:

danwest58 said:

moshra said:

i tOlD yOu sO!

You act as if full loot open world PVP was the only problem this game has had.

Oh, if only they would have listened to you, this game would have been the WoW killer... *sigh*

Maybe the game is failing because it's a bad game.

First there will never be a WOW killer period. Blizzard killed WOW.

As someone who played UO back in 1998 had they listened to me yes they would have had a better game. Problem is the developers for 2 years kept telling people to stop being carebears and become better. Yet they were blinded to the fact that Pre Tram UO really was not all it was cracked up to be. They tried to make that game when players could have just played on a private UO server. Had they listen to me they would have never focused on OW PVP loot game. They would have focused on what made UO good PRE Pub 16 and went that route then added things like Champ spawns. But they focused heavily on the OW PVP stuff and screwed themselves.

Yet I was told to GO BACK TO WOW and leave good games for good players. Now they see that well that is not a good marketing plan. Maybe they should have listened a bit more to Constructive feedback. Which btw was given time and time again by many players. Yet just like SOTA did they listened to Whales and fucked their game up.

Sorry buddy but who are you that they should have listened to you? Are you a developer with many games under your belt or do you work in the field? Or perhaps a consultant?

Is there something about you that puts great weight toward what you say? Serious question.

I been playing MMORPGS since 1998. I have a very good understanding what people like in MMORPGS because I ran countless guilds, Played with tens of thousands of players, and personally played so many hours I would hate to truly know how much time I wasted playing. You can ask who are you. I am one that understands MMORPGS better than most people. No I am not perfect, with that said listening to what customers are saying or potential customers is a 100 times better idea then telling them off.

I understand 1 thing above all developers, consultants, or anyone who works in the industry. Fun is SUBJECTIVE you cannot quantify it. When your forums full of getting Ganked is not FUN and people are making recommendations what they would like to see. You think you might want to listen to the majorly of your post saying the same thing. Reading what players think. How they phrase their replies you can give you good feedback on what you should do. If you as the Developer think telling off your customers is a better solution you lose.

Sovrath · July 2019

danwest58 said:

I been playing MMORPGS since 1998. I have a very good understanding what people like in MMORPGS because I ran countless guilds, Played with tens of thousands of players, and personally played so many hours I would hate to truly know how much time I wasted playing. You can ask who are you. I am one that understands MMORPGS better than most people. No I am not perfect, with that said listening to what customers are saying or potential customers is a 100 times better idea then telling them off.

I understand 1 thing above all developers, consultants, or anyone who works in the industry. Fun is SUBJECTIVE you cannot quantify it. When your forums full of getting Ganked is not FUN and people are making recommendations what they would like to see. You think you might want to listen to the majorly of your post saying the same thing. Reading what players think. How they phrase their replies you can give you good feedback on what you should do. If you as the Developer think telling off your customers is a better solution you lose.

I would say the caveat is that listening to what the majority of players want is should be contingent upon whether or not the majority of players should actually be playing that particular game.

If a game is being marketed as full loot pvp then only players who are willing to play under that ruleset should be playing it. Meaning they should only be listening to the players who are actually the customers they are developing for.

Otherwise it's somewhat unfair to have a whole slew of players, who want something else, to demand that they change their game. It then becomes disingenuous to the players who are there precisely for that game.

Now, they should realize whether or not they have the audience to support the game. But that's another thing entirely.

So no, I can't really agree with that.

[Deleted User] · July 2019

The user and all related content has been deleted.

goboygo · July 2019

moshra said:

i tOlD yOu sO!

You act as if full loot open world PVP was the only problem this game has had.

Oh, if only they would have listened to you, this game would have been the WoW killer... *sigh*

Maybe the game is failing because it's a bad game.

Then I guess every open world full loot game is bad because they all fail, or......maybe they fail because its open world full loot PVP, ya? You tell me which is more probable.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV