Should social restraints be removed?

Vermillion_Raventhal · July 2019

I think MMORPG have so much safe space lack of competition that it's sterile and boring. Doesn't have to be just trolling and killing.

We play online with 1000s and literally have no effect on the person next to you good or bad. I think that's a sad thing.

I can't remember the last time I healed or been healed by a stranger. Rescued from PvE or even PvP encounter. Got a buff that made a difference from a random. Traded an item with someone. Those were the things that made MMORPG cool to me. The random chaos bring people into the equation.

All focus is on the game/combat side of things. It makes every game feel formulated because no matter how you change combat you are still doing the same things.

Utinni · July 2019

None of this is true in the games I play. Stop playing poopbutt games.

Kyleran · July 2019

Arterius said:

Utinni said:

None of this is true in the games I play. Stop playing poopbutt games.

Out of curiosity what MMO's do you play? I play FFXIV, Eso, and WoW at the moment.

Yep, pretty much explains your experience, those three are typical of modern MMOs with full safeties always on.

Designed to be played mostly solo, especially during the leveling experience players have no real need for others so interaction tends to be infrequent.

In such games one is more likely to get snarled at for assisting rather than thanked. Also with so little to lose people feel no need to go out of their way to help.

Play a game like EVE and you'll see what happens when the social controls are loosened up.

Yes, yes, great evil and all that but also even greater good, where helping others is often very much appreciated and strangers will often do so.

Once I made a terrible mistake jumping to the wrong gate in an expensive mining boost ship and found myself snared by a red cruiser whose buddy was on the way to feast on my folly

Sent out a call for help in alliance chat and a single pilot showed up. Although I did not know him, he attacked the two reds, drawing them off enough that I was able to warp away and cloak in system.

He managed to kill one but died to the 2nd hostile. Although he lost a ship worth about 100M ISK he saved me a billion plus so I insisted he take 250M ISK as a reward which he tried to decline.

We never spoke again but EVE is full of such tales of courage and friendship, far more IMO than all of the negative press one usually sees.

Amathe · July 2019

Further to @Kyleran's post, once in EQ (when I was just a noob) I used a Luclin port down to a zone where everything - and I mean everything - in sight could kill me easy. I died over and over and over. I was about to resign myself to my fate, when I texted a random person and said "For the love of God can you please help me get out of here?" He laughed and gladly cleared a path, allowing me to make my escape.

Nowadays that might still happen that way, but I would not count on it. There is just so much less emphasis on each player's role in the server community.

Iselin · July 2019

I think some of you guys underestimate the influence on in-game socializing that the time in which these games were and are played has.

For many people MMOs 20 or even 15 years ago were the majority of their on-line socializing time and we tended to play just one MMO at a time.

It's a whole different thing now with people playing several online games at once, multi game guilds and constant on-line presence with social apps.

In other words the relative importance to any given player of socializing in a specific MMO today is tiny compared to what it once was.

I have very serious doubts that any upcoming game regardless of how retro or draconian their mechanics to encourage or force socializing are, will change how players treat socializing in those games in 2019.

That's not to say that MMOs don't need a heaping dose of community-focused play possibilities instead of just catering to solo everything - they certainly need that. But you do that with fresh new ideas and not to try to re-create the social atmosphere that existed in them 15 years ago. Those days just ain't coming back.

TEKK3N · July 2019

In modern MMOs you can’t even heal or give buffs outside of your group, even if you wanted to.
Also zones are designed so that high lvl characters and low level never meet.

I remember in EQ when I used to spend an hour a day helping random newbies groups to level by giving them high level buffs and tanking the mobs for them outside of their group.

You can’t do that in modern MMOs as it is classified as cheating (powerleveling), so the game doesn’t allow you to do it.

That’s another reason why old school was better.

FlyByKnight · July 2019

Socializing and doing community based activities are 2 different things. Anti-social people can participate in community gameplay. MMORPGs ironically suck at community gameplay/narrative these days and don't get to fall back on small niche community to save the experience. A lot of times they just throw contrived RVR at that problem and cross their fingers. That's not really a good answer. Regardless it's not really about being able to have an "effect" on another person it's the in-game community not having an effect on the world and vice versa.

In addition, the "chosen one" days should be well behind us. It's not a sellable concept in MMORPGs anymore.

Off topic, I think general chat styled interaction should die. The focus should go to proximity and congregation for discussion and interaction.

Vermillion_Raventhal · July 2019

Iselin said:

I think some of you guys underestimate the influence on in-game socializing that the time in which these games were and are played has.

For many people MMOs 20 or even 15 years ago were the majority of their on-line socializing time and we tended to play just one MMO at a time.

It's a whole different thing now with people playing several online games at once, multi game guilds and constant on-line presence with social apps.

In other words the relative importance to any given player of socializing in a specific MMO today is tiny compared to what it once was.

I have very serious doubts that any upcoming game regardless of how retro or draconian their mechanics to encourage or force socializing are, will change how players treat socializing in those games in 2019.

That's not to say that MMOs don't need a heaping dose of community-focused play possibilities instead of just catering to solo everything - they certainly need that. But you do that with fresh new ideas and not to try to re-create the social atmosphere that existed in them 15 years ago. Those days just ain't coming back.

It's not so much about socializing it's we just have no effect on each other. My bad choice or luck can't effect the person randomly next to me. You can even positively effect other players unless you are grouped.

I loved the chaos and unpredictability of the old games. Even the NPCs were unpredictable at time because of.vastly different skills of NPCs. Where now just about all NPCs are the same minus models and power color.

Albatroes · July 2019

There needs to be an environment and reward structure to support social interaction. Humans are creatures fueled by desires that either benefit themselves and/or others close to them while trying to achieve said goals as efficiently as possible. Older mmorpgs were counter to this, with many having environments which would easily lead to player death if they overpulled and/or if they were ill-prepared. Heavy RNG was also common. To counter this, people would often group together because it would accomplish things you wanted done the fastest and if they helped other people with certain things (like sharing items), chances are those people would do the same. I'd lump sole-server population into the environment category because word would travel fast if you were good/bad. All of these things run counter in today's market because a lot of stuff you can solo and if you can't, its easy enough to get matched with randoms and leave right after, with a high chance of never seeing them again. That with the addition of too many things in games rewarding you for minimal effect and if it is "superior," these games run in "seasons" now meaning that stuff you obtain that is relevant to power is only good for that season with catch-up mechanics making previous content irrelevant.

iixviiiix · July 2019

Nope , you don't know how much stress when doing PVE and have to watch out your back .

And who said PVE "safe" ? where is KS ? where is MPK ? Even without full for all PK , other player have many ways to harass or PK you without dirrect attack .

Iselin · July 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Iselin said:

I think some of you guys underestimate the influence on in-game socializing that the time in which these games were and are played has.

For many people MMOs 20 or even 15 years ago were the majority of their on-line socializing time and we tended to play just one MMO at a time.

It's a whole different thing now with people playing several online games at once, multi game guilds and constant on-line presence with social apps.

In other words the relative importance to any given player of socializing in a specific MMO today is tiny compared to what it once was.

I have very serious doubts that any upcoming game regardless of how retro or draconian their mechanics to encourage or force socializing are, will change how players treat socializing in those games in 2019.

That's not to say that MMOs don't need a heaping dose of community-focused play possibilities instead of just catering to solo everything - they certainly need that. But you do that with fresh new ideas and not to try to re-create the social atmosphere that existed in them 15 years ago. Those days just ain't coming back.

It's not so much about socializing it's we just have no effect on each other. My bad choice or luck can't effect the person randomly next to me. You can even positively effect other players unless you are grouped.

I loved the chaos and unpredictability of the old games. Even the NPCs were unpredictable at time because of.vastly different skills of NPCs. Where now just about all NPCs are the same minus models and power color.

Well it depends on the game. In ESO for example I can heal random strangers individually or any number of them that happen to be in my casting cone or area when I use a group heal. Same with buffing running or mounted speed of anyone near me since that buff is an AOE that affects all friendlies near me.

It's made that way because there are group activities in PVE that you can participate in whether you're formally grouped or just there. Same thing in PVP with friendlies.

I have my quibbles about there not being enough of that in ESO and I still think of Rift as the MMO high water mark for community activities on a much larger scale often affecting a whole zone at once and with unpredictable timers. Those PvE activities in ESO are on predictable timers at designated and well known spots.

Like I've said many times, those are exactly the sort of activities that MMOs should emphasize and be very good at. It's what sets them apart from other genres.

Phaen · July 2019

I think LFG has a lot to do with drop in social/ community interactivity, or at least how its implemented these days. Its predominantly a dungeon group finder where you are random bunched with people who vary rarely say anything (partly due to the speed of said dungeon), where you just do you job for 15mins, collect your loot and never likely see them again.

Grouping, at least back in the day, was usually an advertised thing over chat where people where looking to complete a specific quest or maybe just grind for an item. In itself it was somewhat of a sandbox experience or unique event if you like as you often didn't know the people, groups where often not optimised making do with whatever classes you had. Agreed, games were slower paced so there was more opportunity to talk, but you got to know people and would likely remember them in the future.

Also early LFG where people advertised an event or quest they were looking to do and you messaged them to join etc, that was interactive. There is still some of that around, but instanced dungeons seem to have spoiled most of that. A lot of other game mechanics have moved us away from a community support environment, buffs being either self or group and not targeted. Solo content being driven that all classes can do everything. PvP being forced instead of opt-in being the latest push...
A lot of these things can be put down to balancing attempts, but what you do in one area affects other areas.

I would agree that we are not likely to see the same level of cooperation/ community like in the past, but it would be nice to start heading in that direction.

tawess · July 2019

To be fair... "We" kind of did this to our self... People did not behave and some people even made it a game within the game to see how far they could push being a posterior primate.

(and before anyone questions my chops.... I started in Meridian 59 advancing to Ultima Online and then have passed through SWG, CoH, WoW, WaR, SW:ToR, Neverwinter and so on and so forth... )

So why not cut this sort of behaviour short, yes it makes the world a bit more bland but it comes down to finances in the end. You might have a hard time to attract new players if your game is known as a bubbling cesspool of human waste... Unless you are big enough to simply use cultural osmosis. =P Most games are not.

Yes it was nice to have people being nice to random strangers (i once inherited a small town in SWG) but at the same time i remember the times i was ganked in UO by roving bands of ass-monkeys.. Not much fun in that to be fair...

Most people do enjoy safety over the chance of meeting a decent human...

Tiller · July 2019

Need the TEF (temporary enemy flag) system like in SWG. That was amazing and funny at times, especially when a lot of people TEFed off eachother, big battles would ensue .

rojoArcueid · July 2019

I can't comment on the PvP part because i don't PvP.

The social aspect that leads to player trading was killed by Auction Houses. IMO Asian mmos always did it best by letting players open shop in town where customers would talk to sellers directly.

The idea of people helping/saving others in PvE open world was killed by flawed classes designed for solo play. I like playing solo, but i don't need a jack of all trade class. If your class can do everything effectively (self heal, tank, massive dps, CC, DoT, buff, debuff, etc.) then you don't need help. Also the faceroll easy mobs designed to rush through max level quickly. Big problem there too.

Nebless · July 2019

People give random buff's all the time in DDO, either just in passing or while you're healing in the taverns.

As for helping in PvE fights I see it all the time in Neverwinter and have done it myself in AoC if it looks like the other guys in trouble.

sunandshadow · July 2019

Some of this depends on the game's systems - like you may be unable to buff people not in your group or not specifically in a raid with you. If combat is fast there's no time to see that someone is close to dying before the fight ends one way or the other. If most classes don't have heals, then most players can't give out random heals. And if combat is instanced, it's flat out impossible to interfere in an in-progress fight.

Trading on the other hand happens all the time in basically every MMO except one as locked down as Wizard 101. Some games enable trading more than others - like can you do it through the mail or a trading post, or how much time and effort does it take to get where another person is, and is there a global chat channel that's free to talk on or do all global channels cost cash items to talk on...

Amathe · July 2019

DMKano said:

Just a pet peeve of mine when people say antisocial when they really mean asocial.

My pet peeves get stomped on here like it was a production of Riverdance.

JeffSpicoli · July 2019

I think alot of you guys are wayyyyyy overthinking it. The reality is the novelty of "playing with others ONLINE" isn't quite as special or unique as it was in say 1999-2007 which is a big part of what made MMO's special in the first place where as now every asshole in the world is connected via social media or what have you.

FlyByKnight · July 2019

DMKano said:

FlyByKnight said:

Socializing and doing community based activities are 2 different things. Anti-social people can participate in community gameplay. MMORPGs ironically suck at community gameplay/narrative these days and don't get to fall back on small niche community to save the experience. A lot of times they just throw contrived RVR at that problem and cross their fingers. That's not really a good answer. Regardless it's not really about being able to have an "effect" on another person it's the in-game community not having an effect on the world and vice versa.

In addition, the "chosen one" days should be well behind us. It's not a sellable concept in MMORPGs anymore.

Off topic, I think general chat styled interaction should die. The focus should go to proximity and congregation for discussion and interaction.

I agree with majority of what you posted.

Just one small correction - its asocial, not antisocial.

Just a pet peeve of mine when people say antisocial when they really mean asocial.

Noted, but you know... communicative norms.

"Not bad meaning bad, but bad meaning good" -Run DMC

Vermillion_Raventhal · July 2019

tawess said:

To be fair... "We" kind of did this to our self... People did not behave and some people even made it a game within the game to see how far they could push being a posterior primate.

(and before anyone questions my chops.... I started in Meridian 59 advancing to Ultima Online and then have passed through SWG, CoH, WoW, WaR, SW:ToR, Neverwinter and so on and so forth... )

So why not cut this sort of behaviour short, yes it makes the world a bit more bland but it comes down to finances in the end. You might have a hard time to attract new players if your game is known as a bubbling cesspool of human waste... Unless you are big enough to simply use cultural osmosis. =P Most games are not.

Yes it was nice to have people being nice to random strangers (i once inherited a small town in SWG) but at the same time i remember the times i was ganked in UO by roving bands of ass-monkeys.. Not much fun in that to be fair...

Most people do enjoy safety over the chance of meeting a decent human...

All my main MMORPG memories arose from something spontaneous thing players did. Or even NPC that did something random.

I guess that's why I stick to mostly single player games these days.

Vermillion_Raventhal · July 2019

MontyBrewster said:

I think alot of you guys are wayyyyyy overthinking it. The reality is the novelty of "playing with others ONLINE" isn't quite as special or unique as it was in say 1999-2007 which is a big part of what made MMO's special in the first place where as now every asshole in the world is connected via social media or what have you.

Again, it's not about talking remaking friends. It is about human spontaneity coming from being able to interact and effect people. Sometimes it sucks at the time but it was the biggest draw for me.

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JeffSpicoli · July 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

MontyBrewster said:

I think alot of you guys are wayyyyyy overthinking it. The reality is the novelty of "playing with others ONLINE" isn't quite as special or unique as it was in say 1999-2007 which is a big part of what made MMO's special in the first place where as now every asshole in the world is connected via social media or what have you.

Again, it's not about talking remaking friends. It is about human spontaneity coming from being able to interact and effect people. Sometimes it sucks at the time but it was the biggest draw for me.

The reason you had human spontaneity in these games is because it was new, fresh, fun, exciting, we take it for granted as old farts but today's generation views the internet and online always connected plugged in feel as just part of life, its like breathing air , you don;t think before you take a breath you just breathe, they know nothing else .

I'm having such a hard time formulating my thoughts on this into words but what I'm trying to say is, this was a capsule in time where we interacted with other human beings but we weren't really there it was very surreal & NEW experience hence the deep connections that were made in MMO's and the extra mile you went to help and interact with others which made it all so much more immersive and special. This can never be duplicated or recreated in MMO's because the novelty of being online with thousands of others in a virtual RPG setting just doesnt have the same pizzazz it once did .

Fortnite & BR's in general is this generations MMO's. Everything about the style, the pace, the gameplay sums them up perfectly and makes perfect sense.

Gutlard · July 2019

Isn't this one of those, "Treat others how you want to be treated," situations?

How often do you help randoms and heal them and stuff?

If enough of you who want that stuff to happen start doing it yourselves it should spread, right?

If this current "anomie" attitude has spread, then so can the other apparently, because these games used to be a lot more social.

If you like doing that stuff then keep doing it, and feel good about it.

Gut Out!

Theocritus · July 2019

When the genre fully committed to the solo experience, the community was no longer needed.

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Should social restraints be removed?

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Should social restraints be removed?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

This have been a good conversation

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