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MMORPG.com : General : The Downfall of MMORPGs - TheHiveLeader

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  • BaronMunchausenBaronMunchausen Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    Being a tabletop RPG player and playing the Bard tale series on the C-64 (yes I am showing my age), then EQ came out which was really, imho, the granddaddy of MMO's and the other MMO during that time was the golden age of MMORpg. I think games of old are much better than the games that are released today.

    So many have came and gone, some still around but really compare to games back then and games now is, to me, the programming/finished product of the game. Games came out back then were really great (yes i know every real MMO that has been released had issues). But these days game are released as Beta or even Alpha really..and we are to pay for this junk Yes I know a company needs to make money and that is where we, the consumer, vote with our dollars.

    I read/hear so much of games that are F2P yet have micro transactions..really is someone holding a gun to your head to buy that extra bag to hold loot? or the fancy armor? NO..it is the players choice. You do not have to the choice is there to buy it or not (with whatever game currency or real money). Think of it this way i live here in Las Vegas and every time I walk by slot machines guess how much $$ i put into them? ZERO. It is a choice and I choose not too. Just like all these game to buy stuff YOU/ME have a choice so do not whine about spending X money. I just started playing ESO and really all that stuff to buy guess what..I vote with my pocket book and do not need to spend a single penny on their store.

    Now of course the thing today is 'What is a MMO?' which many games SAY they are really are not (which many people have already commented from what I have read). What is Massive.. The map/world? What is Muti.. 2/6/12/50/1,000 etc? And online.. is it the game or just needing to be online to buy 'the good' etc?

    Also companies have 'dumb' down SO many games because of the young people today that do not want to 'learn/read' on how to play and/or have a very, very short attention span (ohh yes and those who have to buy a game and have a race to see who finishes it first in what..less that 24 hrs..ugh).

    Finally I get why sites like MMORPG here just about lumps every game under the 'MMO umbrella' because if not this site would loose a good 7/10ths of the games that is listed as a MMO. There is just so many X factors that starts with the company that makes the game, the sites that put the game under the MMO umbrella/reviews, and the consumer that buys said game/MMO (or whatever it wants to be called).

    Simple people..Don't be a sheep.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,776
    Bloodaxes said:
    DMKano said:
    What killed the MMORPG was the devaluation of rewards.

    Time.

    Time destroys all
    People really ignore this. When I was younger I could spend a lot of time playing, but now I'm almost in my 30s and I can't reliably spend so much time playing. Mmorpgs are very time consuming and that is where "devaluation of rewards" came from.

    Do I like things being so easy? Hell no! 
    Am I part of the "problem"? Eventually yes.

    When you grow older you'll understand.

    (Ps. I haven't played an mmorpg/mmo in months. There aren't any that interest me, so I'm sticking to single player games and co-op games with friends like monster hunter world until something interesting pops out)
    The problem with this description, is that it comes from your perspective. "We were younger then"
    But what about the next gen? Why wouldn't they like what we liked when we were their age?

    Anyone who came into this genre following circa 2010, has no idea what Gen 1 MMOs were like.
     Love it or hate it, They just don't know unless they find some pvt server.

    Classic WoW? Maybe. Not sure current Blizz has the talent to pull it off TBH.
  • Xee2018Xee2018 Member UncommonPosts: 131
    edited July 2
    I think this is with many games not just mmo's. Quality has gone down hill as we come to the age of releasing games unfinished or in constant development. MMO's and other games of old use to come on discs or media and was completed or release quality as they only had really one chance to push out a complete game and if it did not do well it was a huge loss. Today with digital everything and no quality controls steam and others just allow anything to sell where they make a %. Games today seem unfinished and rushed out for a quick dollar, or now branded as pre/alpha, beta etc which can stay in that state for years yet still take your money as this is the new normal for many. Steam and other broad markets don't really do much QA on what they sell, just like apps for a phone. Where publishers of old where the investors and wanted quality titles to make them the money and putting millions into development. Where today its all about pumping out as many games big and small to make profits and every dollar counts. the More the greater even if unfinished. After which there is no obligation to ever finish a game. its a quick cashout leaving the players with trash.

    At least that is how I see it. If the markets were on the line for what they published it would be a totally different landscape.
  • UtinniUtinni Member RarePosts: 1,175
    Don't more people play MMORPG now than ever played in the past? Sure a smaller percentage of "gamers" play MMORPGs because the amount of "gamers" has increased dramatically, but I'm fairly certain MMO's are played more today than in the past, and the genre was never even once close to the "king of gaming".
  • ZeroxinZeroxin Member UncommonPosts: 2,512
    The MMO genre is stuck in a rot. Everything is COMBAT COMBAT COMBAT. Why isn't there any clever MMOs that deviate from just COMBAT!!!! ..?

    I came up with a few ideas that would be amazing for an MMO that doesn't progress you just based on combat but I realized that unless you step out of playing MMOs a person won't come up with anything other than what they are used to playing because I didn't realize the idea of thinking about a new type MMO until I stopped playing MMOs.

    It was an amazing realization that ALL MMOS are pretty much the same. There are only 4 different MMOs;

    GW2, EVE Online, Final Fantasy and everyone else.

    And it doesn't help that they ALL have the common denominator. Progression by MORTAL KOMBAT!



    Gdemami

    This is not a game.

  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,783
    Yeah it's always been consumer behavior affecting change. One thing I'd like to point out, particularly about WoW since people often point to it as the reason we got so many bad things is that even the WoW devs were just responding to the player-base and the real culprit? Add-ons.

    Almost every "quality of life" change began as an add-on that few people knew about and used as a competitive advantage. That, once known, became "mandatory" to be on an even playing field.

    Questhelper. Groupfinder. Gearscore. DPS/Threat meters. Bossmods. Enemy nameplates. All the combat timers and on screen overlays that let you know you have a proc.

    Those are just some of the big ones. But what happened is that some clever people created add-ons that modified an integral part of the experience to make it easier to do. When those add-ons became popular enough, WoW devs would finally relent and build that functionality into the game. And since other devs looked to WoW for "what it takes to get millions of subscribers" they didn't trace any of these changes back to the players, but just saw it as a part of WoW.

    So not only did we indirectly cause the downfall of MMO's through our money and time, but we also directly altered their course by our own desire to either have a competitive advantage or to keep up with the pack.

    It has been a never-ending arms race between devs and players, and I believe add-ons are to blame. Raid encounters in WoW now have instructions multiple pages long with various things in each phase for healers/dps/tanks to worry about. This only happened because we keep giving ourselves more and more tools to overcome the encounters and it minimizes the danger to the point where it takes someone not paying attention to fail.

    And of course, these add-ons are mandated by guild leaders. There's even add-ons that check to see if everyone in the raid has the correct and up to date add-ons installed!

    We became too efficient for MMO's. Here's a fairly recent example of what happens when you abandon all the "hard stuff" to streamline an experience. Game of Thrones. In the name of efficiently moving a hugely complex plot from point A to point B in a short amount of time, they cut away damn near everything that made it great in the first place. This is what happened to MMOs at our behest.
    kitarad
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,945
    I was honestly just looking for a place to share this video:



    I figured here would work.  It's Vendetta Online on the Quest, a game I bet you've never played @TheHiveLeader

    I've logged, let's see, 1,874 hours and $1,202.90 spent.  I've been member of their community since June 2nd, 2003.

    I sort of agree with the 'you do not speak for all of us' sentiment along with the 'this has been said before ad nauseam' sentiment.  The genre is bigger than you realize and interesting things are happening, sometimes quietly.

    Finally, I think I may see a flaw in your argument (one common among such 'the genre is dying' rants): taking MMORPGs to be representations of virtual worlds, isn't it a good thing that their number isn't proliferating?  If you think about the promise of MMORPGs circa 2004, what were the so-called core values?  I'd say longevity and permanence.

    As such, the fact that it isn't raining new virtual worlds every year isn't a sign the genre is in a state of "downfall" at all; it's a sign extant virtual worlds are being lived in.
    Scorchien

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • shirlntshirlnt Member UncommonPosts: 351
    It is true that devs follow the desires of the majority or what the majority is willing to accept. I've tried/played many MMOs over the years and the majority of them fall into a pattern especially after the huge number of players that WoW had. Most of the time I find myself being moved from one area of the game to another as I level up, following a linear path where even if I try different species or professions I quickly end up on the same path, and now many games have easy leveling and a quick trip through the storyline to rush to "endgame" content including the use of a reward or cash shop purchase to skip levels as the game ages and expansions are added. Most MMOs that I've tried over the past 13 years haven't held my attention for more than a month or two at a time (sometimes I will return to them later for another month or two) as a result.
    The one MMO containing combat that held my attention for over a year straight, until the company changed it too much trying to chasing after WoW numbers, had the following features instead:
    - non-combat professions that mattered and were a necessary part of the game; wounds had to be healed, buffs were needed, armor decayed and had to be replaced; along with this a player could choose to be completely non-combat rather than it being a secondary profession
    - a lack of levels on players; players gained skills and became stronger but a level was not attached to them, newbie and veteran players could team up to do missions or kill wildlife/npc and both got xp from it
    - large team sizes no matter what you were doing (I think it was 20) ....hunting, running a dungeon, getting buffs, or just hanging out/ "roleplaying"
    - trees of skills rather than straight professions...players had so many skill points they could use on the trees if they had earned the needed xp to unlock the boxes
    -open play; except for a few "themeparks" players could basically play however they wished and there was very few missions that entailed "run all over the map from npc to npc to get some xp" or "see that npc standing right next to me? I need you to talk to him for me to get xp", there were some maps that were more difficult than others but players could go through game content as they wished, also there were mission boards players used to pick missions and each map had high enough content that a player wasn't required to go to a specific "zone" to get the xp needed
    - the ability to log into the game for just a few minutes and get something accomplished (grab a couple missions from a mission board for combat, or dance/perform music/craft for a little bit for non-combat) and the ability to log in after being gone for a while and not have to worry that guildmates had outleveled you and were working on missions/zones that you were not able to access
    -player economy without crazy inflation rates from either easy money earning or gold scammers; and player cities which also had a role in the game and weren't instanced....they could contained shops, trainers, and mission terminals
    - monthly fees which covered EVERYTHING I needed in the game
    For me these features helped to create what I want out of an MMORPG, which is the ability to work in a group with others while playing the game the way I want and creating the "storyline" for or "becoming" my character and being able to do that without feeling like I have to be logged in for a certain amount of time or at a certain time of day. I'm still on my search for a game that contains many of these features hopefully tweaked for improvements in the areas were that game had flaws or could have been better.
  • CynehildCynehild Member UncommonPosts: 81
    I thought globally the genre has more players & business than ever though? It just turns Asian is what I think. Not sure I'd use the word 'downfall' to describe Asian MMOs, which is currently striving. Still, great points by HiveLeader like always.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,336
    edited July 11
    I was honestly just looking for a place to share this video:


    I figured here would work.  It's Vendetta Online on the Quest, a game I bet you've never played @TheHiveLeader

    I've logged, let's see, 1,874 hours and $1,202.90 spent.  I've been member of their community since June 2nd, 2003.

    I sort of agree with the 'you do not speak for all of us' sentiment along with the 'this has been said before ad nauseam' sentiment.  The genre is bigger than you realize and interesting things are happening, sometimes quietly.

    Finally, I think I may see a flaw in your argument (one common among such 'the genre is dying' rants): taking MMORPGs to be representations of virtual worlds, isn't it a good thing that their number isn't proliferating?  If you think about the promise of MMORPGs circa 2004, what were the so-called core values?  I'd say longevity and permanence.

    As such, the fact that it isn't raining new virtual worlds every year isn't a sign the genre is in a state of "downfall" at all; it's a sign extant virtual worlds are being lived in.
    I don't agree with any of this.

    While mmorpg's aren't going to be going away any time soon, there just isn't a lot of "large money" being invested in them, at least in the west. And are there really a lot of mmorpg's being made in the east as I only see "a few." Then again, there very well may be but we'll never see any news as they are only being offered over there.

    As far as worlds being lived in, populations of most games seem to be on decline, including World of Warcraft. While in some ways that's a good thing as it means the devoted players are, well, "devoted."

    Showing one small game and saying that things are happening under the radar doesn't show that mmorpg's are a thriving game genre. Thriving means news, excitement, companies trying to get in that marketplace and make things happen.

    What we are actually seeing are those who love the genre working in it but working on a smaller scale.





  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 855
    Since you're all a part of my reality and different pieces of my psyche and I have total control over everything, I can guarantee that the MMORPG genre will stick around and evolve into something special all parts of me/you will enjoy.

    You're welcome!

    Gut Out!
    PhaserlightBaalzharon

    What, me worry?

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,945
    edited July 12
    Sovrath said:
    I was honestly just looking for a place to share this video:


    I figured here would work.  It's Vendetta Online on the Quest, a game I bet you've never played @TheHiveLeader

    I've logged, let's see, 1,874 hours and $1,202.90 spent.  I've been member of their community since June 2nd, 2003.

    I sort of agree with the 'you do not speak for all of us' sentiment along with the 'this has been said before ad nauseam' sentiment.  The genre is bigger than you realize and interesting things are happening, sometimes quietly.

    Finally, I think I may see a flaw in your argument (one common among such 'the genre is dying' rants): taking MMORPGs to be representations of virtual worlds, isn't it a good thing that their number isn't proliferating?  If you think about the promise of MMORPGs circa 2004, what were the so-called core values?  I'd say longevity and permanence.

    As such, the fact that it isn't raining new virtual worlds every year isn't a sign the genre is in a state of "downfall" at all; it's a sign extant virtual worlds are being lived in.
    I don't agree with any of this.

    While mmorpg's aren't going to be going away any time soon, there just isn't a lot of "large money" being invested in them, at least in the west. And are there really a lot of mmorpg's being made in the east as I only see "a few." Then again, there very well may be but we'll never see any news as they are only being offered over there.

    As far as worlds being lived in, populations of most games seem to be on decline, including World of Warcraft. While in some ways that's a good thing as it means the devoted players are, well, "devoted."

    Showing one small game and saying that things are happening under the radar doesn't show that mmorpg's are a thriving game genre. Thriving means news, excitement, companies trying to get in that marketplace and make things happen.

    What we are actually seeing are those who love the genre working in it but working on a smaller scale.


    Sure, call it a "long tail" or whatever you like, but I disagree that "news, excitement, companies trying to get in that marketplace and make things happen" necessarily equals success. In fact, this can be very disruptive. That's great if there is nothing in the industry that you like, because disruption often leads to innovation, but if there is something that you do like then this can actually be a threat.

    So, I guess that 'not a lot of MMORPGs are being made' to me is a sign that the market is being served.  It's easier to say while having a MMORPG to play.

    I was also thinking about it from the perspective of a finite number of people on the Earth.  If MMORPGs really are meant to last a long time (decades or more) then this could actually be a problem; a very, very minor one considering everything else going on.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,400
    Pretty sure that sports games and shooters - as a minimum - have always been more popular than mmos. With the exception of WoW - and maybe GW1 - mmos have never see "huge" numbers. 

    As for retention have things really changed? Back when EQ1 turned 5 yeas old SoE reported that churn was over 50% (a month); and when Blizzard reported on WoW's 100M accounts the implication was that on average c. 10M a year must have left in its first c. 10 years. SWTOR also saw huge churn.

    Which is not to say that a % didn't stick around. (And I do wonder though whether the sub model encouraged people to run through content.)



  • ElijarhElijarh Member UncommonPosts: 83
    So much worked before.. Old idea's can be reborn and remastered into a new genre. Personally I have never brought cash shop crap and I stopped getting sucked in Pre-ordering a few years ago. As my post count shows against the year I joined mmorpg, it dropped off fast and the Sub mmo died.. I could see how the mmo landscape was changing after SWG and the rapid mutation of the original WoW. The only free to play i play is Planetside 2 now, and nope I not brought squat! . I am indeed waiting for that revolutionary new MMO to appear that i will pay for monthly.. But as Hive said.. that risk devs take must lead to a successful outcome. Perhaps the new LOTR mmo might be something old.. something new? I forever wait.. Nice piece Hive. :)
  • NexeusSNexeusS Member UncommonPosts: 38
    Not entirely true tho. While some MMO games has loss power over the years, others has actually gained a lot in the last 3-4 years. FFXIV is a pure example, and this game always offers content at every 3.5 months.

    Back in 2001-2004 you didn't had a lot of competitions and everyone had in mind only 2-3 games.... mostly WoW, and that was about it. Nowadays you have literally 100 MMO titles to pick and play, and each one of them is confusing than the other.

    I wouldn't call this "downfall", these MMO's are still there so is the players. You have FFXIV, you have GW2, ESO, or WoW and so on and so forth but the most successful now is FFXIV and it's getting insanly positive review from everywhere so there's that.
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,225
    Rusque said:
    Yeah it's always been consumer behavior affecting change. One thing I'd like to point out, particularly about WoW since people often point to it as the reason we got so many bad things is that even the WoW devs were just responding to the player-base and the real culprit? Add-ons.

    Almost every "quality of life" change began as an add-on that few people knew about and used as a competitive advantage. That, once known, became "mandatory" to be on an even playing field.

    Questhelper. Groupfinder. Gearscore. DPS/Threat meters. Bossmods. Enemy nameplates. All the combat timers and on screen overlays that let you know you have a proc.

    Those are just some of the big ones. But what happened is that some clever people created add-ons that modified an integral part of the experience to make it easier to do. When those add-ons became popular enough, WoW devs would finally relent and build that functionality into the game. And since other devs looked to WoW for "what it takes to get millions of subscribers" they didn't trace any of these changes back to the players, but just saw it as a part of WoW.

    So not only did we indirectly cause the downfall of MMO's through our money and time, but we also directly altered their course by our own desire to either have a competitive advantage or to keep up with the pack.

    It has been a never-ending arms race between devs and players, and I believe add-ons are to blame. Raid encounters in WoW now have instructions multiple pages long with various things in each phase for healers/dps/tanks to worry about. This only happened because we keep giving ourselves more and more tools to overcome the encounters and it minimizes the danger to the point where it takes someone not paying attention to fail.

    And of course, these add-ons are mandated by guild leaders. There's even add-ons that check to see if everyone in the raid has the correct and up to date add-ons installed!

    We became too efficient for MMO's. Here's a fairly recent example of what happens when you abandon all the "hard stuff" to streamline an experience. Game of Thrones. In the name of efficiently moving a hugely complex plot from point A to point B in a short amount of time, they cut away damn near everything that made it great in the first place. This is what happened to MMOs at our behest.
    This is a very interesting perspective and one I am in accord with. We are indeed responsible for adopting the add ons that actually dumbed down the game and lead to so many changes that went beyond the simple use of add ons. Like you said the insistence that guild members had them and the dps meter is one of the absolute worst thing they introduced, because it made diversity in builds extinct and even shunned.

     Everyone wanted the build that was the best or perceived to be the best and so on. As a result a sterile and unexciting game play emerged as groups starting requiring certain builds for the success of their dungeon crawling or raids without the theatre and drama of varied builds actually trying to work together via experimentation for trial and error was now an abhorrent choice if you could just bloody comply with the build that works. Every nuance or colourful choice on the skill tree was debated and discarded as not being optimal.

    This lead to people leaving for single player games or playing solo in MMORPGs where you can experiment to your heart's content whatever cockamamey build you desired as long as you wanted it. No one is going to 'advice' you on how to play or pick another player over you because heaven forbid you were specced all wrong.

    Yeah we are indeed largely to blame for the current state of things.

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