I dislike the mechanic because I feel like.......what did I just spend all that time leveling for?
And the developers are like what I just spend all that time making content for as you spend the remainder of your game in 1% of the game.
This says it all for me: spent the time grinding to level, there needs to be perks for doing that grind.
Greys SHOULD cower at you when you're 20+ levels higher, as they no longer reward you with XP or gear worth even wearing anymore.
You need to feel powerful not just with ilevels, but feeling that you're such a menace to wildlife and other baddies they would be FOOLS to try to attack you!!!
This is why the earlier MMOs even had specific combat music to distinguish yellow/orange/red mobs (no XP and not expected to live) music to WARN you too!
^ That theme on the Lavastorm beaches with mobs FROM HELL, yep, very fitting!!!
Look at the length of the song: over 3 minutes. For you to down a red NPC it could take you 3 minute to kill EACH one solo. You adventured in groups then or crossed your fingers you could body pull very good on those walkers (or you ARE dead with 3 reds on you!!!).
Why do you need to work in a game in the first place. Most times it's to cover up lack of gameplay that is enjoyable. Thus the reward has to match the monotony.
I dislike the mechanic because I feel like.......what did I just spend all that time leveling for?
And the developers are like what I just spend all that time making content for as you spend the remainder of your game in 1% of the game.
This says it all for me: spent the time grinding to level, there needs to be perks for doing that grind.
Greys SHOULD cower at you when you're 20+ levels higher, as they no longer reward you with XP or gear worth even wearing anymore.
You need to feel powerful not just with ilevels, but feeling that you're such a menace to wildlife and other baddies they would be FOOLS to try to attack you!!!
This is why the earlier MMOs even had specific combat music to distinguish yellow/orange/red mobs (no XP and not expected to live) music to WARN you too!
^ That theme on the Lavastorm beaches with mobs FROM HELL, yep, very fitting!!!
Look at the length of the song: over 3 minutes. For you to down a red NPC it could take you 3 minute to kill EACH one solo. You adventured in groups then or crossed your fingers you could body pull very good on those walkers (or you ARE dead with 3 reds on you!!!).
Why do you need to work in a game in the first place. Most times it's to cover up lack of gameplay that is enjoyable. Thus the reward has to match the monotony.
That is how MMOs were made then. You grew in power and got perks FROM being powerful. It took time though.
That video shows WHY you even needed player housing to store all your trophies from 100001 quests. And you see that Cloak of Flames? THAT'S an achievement in itself to see. The length of time just farming those damn kobolds for the last page needed to complete the legendary questline took MONTHS. So anyone you saw with the CoF before the nerf, it was a status symbol.
You did it because it was the coolest cloak ever. You did it for a test of your patience. You did it because it was difficult and something gold sellers couldn't sell like raid drops, either.
Mostly you did it because of the adventure. That RPGness of developing your toon for the long haul.
That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.
Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.
The devs create the world, but YOU'RE much more than JUST a tourist.
Studios did a disservice to the RPG genre when toons are but throw aways. Heck, they don't even teach people how to play in groups anymore. You're tanking a WQ and on a boss, and here comes that pet class with their minion with GROWL always on, and never thinking turning it off, as he plays solo so much. You ask them to turn it off, the player cusses you out, instead. Old days, that guy would've been more than kicked from groups for being anti-social and not willing TO work in groups.
Classic WoW is going to be Hell!
Kids these days think 1000hrs in a game is a big deal. Try over 600 days for MMORPGs. You're not in these games for 1000hrs. You're looking to play for YEARS to DECADES!
So, yeah, more time in you want the power of doing content for a decade.
Why do you need to work in a game in the first place. Most times it's to cover up lack of gameplay that is enjoyable. Thus the reward has to match the monotony.
I hope you're not advocating for a "I WIN!" button.
Players "work" in a video game because some players find "work" fun? If you detest work, in an entertainment medium, you're missing out on so much. Movies that make you think. Music that makes you accept a different sound (like techno vs classical). Games that make you work to achieve what you want.
What is "work", really?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
In this context it was doing the same thing for countless hours.
Which situationally can be fun (or more so is the consequence of the game being fun), but the point Ver was making there was that you don't need to put a carrot on a stick to make people play that content if such were the case.
That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.
Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.
The devs create the world, but YOU'RE much more than JUST a tourist.
Studios did a disservice to the RPG genre when toons are but throw aways. Heck, they don't even teach people how to play in groups anymore. You're tanking a WQ and on a boss, and here comes that pet class with their minion with GROWL always on, and never thinking turning it off, as he plays solo so much. You ask them to turn it off, the player cusses you out, instead. Old days, that guy would've been more than kicked from groups for being anti-social and not willing TO work in groups.
Classic WoW is going to be Hell!
Kids these days think 1000hrs in a game is a big deal. Try over 600 days for MMORPGs. You're not in these games for 1000hrs. You're looking to play for YEARS to DECADES!
So, yeah, more time in you want the power of doing content for a decade.
It sound exactly like a game that you are hobo murderer that is trying to be the chosen on... just like everyone else. What you are talking about lead to solo games we have now. There are obvious design reasons things ended how they are. We have already seen it. This just hits reset until folks are bored.
If I want an RPG about me I would play single player, multiplayer or RPG as a service. Much better experience, saves and mods. I play MMORPG to interact with players beyond waiting around for a group or bad filler to work through just to have "content" just to gain power.
Why do you need to work in a game in the first place. Most times it's to cover up lack of gameplay that is enjoyable. Thus the reward has to match the monotony.
I hope you're not advocating for a "I WIN!" button.
Players "work" in a video game because some players find "work" fun? If you detest work, in an entertainment medium, you're missing out on so much. Movies that make you think. Music that makes you accept a different sound (like techno vs classical). Games that make you work to achieve what you want.
What is "work", really?
Work is when I am doing something I don't enjoy for pay off to do something I do enjoy. With many MMORPG there isn't even much payoff. One grind to do another grind. No depth beyond getting gear and levels.
And again, a multiplayer RPG has other considerations. Namely, the fact it's not just you participating in that game's world.
Does every other player have to bend the knee to you in order to deliver that experience you keep espousing? Because if not, then you are going to be facing a very fundamental problem that your character and your character's achievements are simply not unique.
Instead of being all-powerful, you are just engineering a situation where the world around you is devalued, and the players around you are all the same kind of legendary element. Which in turn renders none of them legendary because you can toss a rock and find another person with the same achievements.
Long haul into a shallow pond.
That's the thing about PnP. PnP RPGs were "collaborative" stories created by multiple players interacting togather with a DM to generally guide the user experience. While some of them can play a campaign with a railroaded plot, others were much more sandboxy and the story instead "went with the flow".
You didn't have characters all becoming demigods every campaign either, and I can honestly say most of my characters never made it into any semblance of godhood, because that went against the types of campaigns we played.
The RPG part of it is not a linear set of mechanics that can only work one way. It's a set of common elements that governs overarching features of a game, but it says nothing to style of narrative, how linear or open a game has to be, or even whether a game scales or not.
It feels like a parody of an argument to be sitting there claiming all RPGs have to function one way because that's how you played one character forever.
That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.
Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.
*Snip*
You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.
That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.
Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.
*Snip*
You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.
Gut Out!
The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games. You don't need a story at all. Let alone being the savior of the world playing thousand other saviors doing remedial task to justify content.
If you look at difference between a personal car and public bus or train. Yes they are all vehicles but the operation and purpose are totally different. You can't just pull over for a pit stop on public transportation. You don't have control. It's not a perfect anology but it gets to the point of it needed different things.
That is one reason why MMORPG lean towards convenience and solo play when you are doing something typically done alone, PvE questing. This is typically done in single player games where you can save and play at your own pace and difficulty. Imagine not being able to play your single player RPG because of need 4 randoms online or friends who might be sleep or at work. Then to further the confuse you make everyone the savior of the world to the plot.
That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.
Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.
*Snip*
You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.
Gut Out!
The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games. You don't need a story at all. Let alone being the savior of the world playing thousand other saviors doing remedial task to justify content.
If you look at difference between a personal car and public bus or train. Yes they are all vehicles but the operation and purpose are totally different. You can't just pull over for a pit stop on public transportation. You don't have control. It's not a perfect anology but it gets to the point of it needed different things.
That is one reason why MMORPG lean towards convenience and solo play when you are doing something typically done alone, PvE questing. This is typically done in single player games where you can save and play at your own pace and difficulty. Imagine not being able to play your single player RPG because of need 4 randoms online or friends who might be sleep or at work. Then to further the confuse you make everyone the savior of the world to the plot.
I think most of this comes from books, where "the hero" goes from peasant to savior of the world. Those "fetch and carry" jobs (I refuse to call them "quests") work at the beginning, when players are just starting out. Unfortunately, most RPGs continue with these things long after we could say to the NPC, "Do you know who I am and what I've accomplished? Get your own damn potatoes to market!"
Then MMORPGs add content, raise levels, and after saving the world in the original game, you're back to a peon again, albeit a peon with awesome gear
PS: I have to say, this has been an interesting thread to read. Thanks, Amaranthar
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.
Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.
*Snip*
You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.
Gut Out!
The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games.
Neither are computer RPG games without the MMO.
From the earliest CRPGs like Ultima to Skyrim, it's always about you beating the great evil and saving the world somehow.
We could use more "Game of Thrones" based (MMO)RPGs and less "Tolkien" based (MMO)RPGs.
Ummm... the Night King would like to have a word with you
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.
Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.
*Snip*
You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.
Gut Out!
The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games.
Neither are computer RPG games without the MMO.
From the earliest CRPGs like Ultima to Skyrim, it's always about you beating the great evil and saving the world somehow.
We could use more "Game of Thrones" based (MMO)RPGs and less "Tolkien" based (MMO)RPGs.
Ummm... the Night King would like to have a word with you
And at the end he wasn't the great enemy....
The ending kind of reminded me of this old Pogo cartoon:
GOT had several main threads and we can argue about which was the real main quest but Arya's character growth and her killing the NK is about as standard "unlikely hero kills the UBG" as fantasy fiction gets.
My favorite parts were the political intrigue and backstabbing but the NK supernatural thread was there from episode 1 until almost the end. And they probably should have ended it there considering how poor and rushed the last 3 episodes were.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
And that's kind of the issue. GoT wasn't that cut and dry of an arc until they rushed into the conclusions. We had some far-flung character progressions and multiple characters that could have fulfilled parts of or all of the main prophecy elements.
Something that would play well to a dedicated multiplayer environment, where there are pivotal things that can happen, but by the virtue of one's own growth and narrative it would allow almost anyone to applicably fulfill a role pr prophecy without being some anointed child.
That they collapsed all that development at the end of GoT to cut and run shouldn't take people away from the merits of what it previously was or could have been had that ball not been dropped, and as it applies to gaming, that's the sort of difference in narrative that would help push a multiplayer experience over a linear track.
From the earliest CRPGs like Ultima to Skyrim, it's always about you beating the great evil and saving the world somehow.
We could use more "Game of Thrones" based (MMO)RPGs and less "Tolkien" based (MMO)RPGs.
Blasphemy!!!
It all started due to Tolkien popularizing a fantasy world (those hippies were on so many drugs as it was). Tolkien couldn't understand it either, and how he became some "superstar". People were asking him what would be good names for their COWS. He had to unlist his telephone number and move for some peace!
It was because it was a fuller world than some nursery rhyme that game makers had a background for their worlds. D&D was born. I started playing when AD&D came out in 1978, and now too old to change.
Also, based on Tolkien's personality and upbringing, he would not have approved of video games and what devs did to his universe. He was an atypical British Empire guy (he didn't like Americans and said so) who felt his mom died as a martyr for his religion (he lost everything in a short span of his life, father/mother, then both sides of his family over converting to Catholicism). He was the "T" in traditional.
If it's that old-hat, that's kinda of another point then that perhaps we should change things up a bit rather than retreading the same thing we've experienced 5-million times.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
If it's that old-hat, that's kinda of another point then that perhaps we should change things up a bit rather than retreading the same thing we've experienced 5-million times.
They could, but this genre is really for people who prefer it. Much like anything retro.
Kids like other genres and they have it for themselves.
And it's fine.
D&D started out that way. It was a niche game that later was popularized. Then the newer generation came, and then left as video games visualized what PnP couldn't and they like other varieties. But D&D is still around to this day, as the same older folks still play it.
Comments
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Because collaborative user experiences, social storytelling, community building and gameplay.
If you wan RPG that holds you aloft like that, that's fine. If you want an MMO to do that you are running head-long into the same problem as always.
Players "work" in a video game because some players find "work" fun? If you detest work, in an entertainment medium, you're missing out on so much. Movies that make you think. Music that makes you accept a different sound (like techno vs classical). Games that make you work to achieve what you want.
What is "work", really?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Which situationally can be fun (or more so is the consequence of the game being fun), but the point Ver was making there was that you don't need to put a carrot on a stick to make people play that content if such were the case.
If I want an RPG about me I would play single player, multiplayer or RPG as a service. Much better experience, saves and mods. I play MMORPG to interact with players beyond waiting around for a group or bad filler to work through just to have "content" just to gain power.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
And again, a multiplayer RPG has other considerations. Namely, the fact it's not just you participating in that game's world.
Does every other player have to bend the knee to you in order to deliver that experience you keep espousing? Because if not, then you are going to be facing a very fundamental problem that your character and your character's achievements are simply not unique.
Instead of being all-powerful, you are just engineering a situation where the world around you is devalued, and the players around you are all the same kind of legendary element. Which in turn renders none of them legendary because you can toss a rock and find another person with the same achievements.
Long haul into a shallow pond.
That's the thing about PnP. PnP RPGs were "collaborative" stories created by multiple players interacting togather with a DM to generally guide the user experience. While some of them can play a campaign with a railroaded plot, others were much more sandboxy and the story instead "went with the flow".
You didn't have characters all becoming demigods every campaign either, and I can honestly say most of my characters never made it into any semblance of godhood, because that went against the types of campaigns we played.
The RPG part of it is not a linear set of mechanics that can only work one way. It's a set of common elements that governs overarching features of a game, but it says nothing to style of narrative, how linear or open a game has to be, or even whether a game scales or not.
It feels like a parody of an argument to be sitting there claiming all RPGs have to function one way because that's how you played one character forever.
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
If you look at difference between a personal car and public bus or train. Yes they are all vehicles but the operation and purpose are totally different. You can't just pull over for a pit stop on public transportation. You don't have control. It's not a perfect anology but it gets to the point of it needed different things.
That is one reason why MMORPG lean towards convenience and solo play when you are doing something typically done alone, PvE questing. This is typically done in single player games where you can save and play at your own pace and difficulty. Imagine not being able to play your single player RPG because of need 4 randoms online or friends who might be sleep or at work. Then to further the confuse you make everyone the savior of the world to the plot.
Fecking cheapest tackiest sh*t you can do to an MMORPG.
Then MMORPGs add content, raise levels, and after saving the world in the original game, you're back to a peon again, albeit a peon with awesome gear
PS: I have to say, this has been an interesting thread to read. Thanks, Amaranthar
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
GOT had several main threads and we can argue about which was the real main quest but Arya's character growth and her killing the NK is about as standard "unlikely hero kills the UBG" as fantasy fiction gets.
My favorite parts were the political intrigue and backstabbing but the NK supernatural thread was there from episode 1 until almost the end. And they probably should have ended it there considering how poor and rushed the last 3 episodes were.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
And that's kind of the issue. GoT wasn't that cut and dry of an arc until they rushed into the conclusions. We had some far-flung character progressions and multiple characters that could have fulfilled parts of or all of the main prophecy elements.
Something that would play well to a dedicated multiplayer environment, where there are pivotal things that can happen, but by the virtue of one's own growth and narrative it would allow almost anyone to applicably fulfill a role pr prophecy without being some anointed child.
That they collapsed all that development at the end of GoT to cut and run shouldn't take people away from the merits of what it previously was or could have been had that ball not been dropped, and as it applies to gaming, that's the sort of difference in narrative that would help push a multiplayer experience over a linear track.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.