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D&D 5e on top again

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  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,996
    edited August 2017
    I was really happy to see 5th edition come out and Wotc fully admitting they fucked up with 4th. We play tested 5e and liked it but it definitely needed time to mature. My old fav version was 2e but with a butt load of advanced options from Unearthed Arcana. I liked the simplicity and flow of the game RP-wise from that edition. 

    5e sort of goes back to that but currently we are playing Star Wars Saga. It's an edition that likely inspired 4e without going full whore mode trying to attract a different audience. Works well for Star Wars and extreme character customization focus if that's what you are into.

    You stay sassy!

  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Robsolf said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Robsolf said:
    D&D is still on top of the ICV2 Hobby sales for Spring 2017. I wonder if the release of Starfinder by Paizo will unseat it. It was nice to see that the 5e Middle Earth by Cubicle 7 broke into the top 5. 
    DnD still remains philosophically flawed.  From the time I was 8 years old and played a magic user in "Keep on the Borderlands" and died after the first pit I fell into, to the modern modules which insist that plot advancement hinge on me picking the right building/npc/map point to approach, I understand that it's not so much about story or challenge, but more about arbitrary BS.

    PbtA... even the Marvel system works better for appreciating player characters while creating a challenge, and encouraging story participation.  So many better systems now than DnD...

    I think that is the crux of why many people dislike a particular RPG.  My character died...
    Some, maybe.  On the other hand, if a game gives you a 20% chance to see a pit trap, then a 50% chance that you'll die when you fall into it, then I'd call that a pretty good reason to dislike a particular RPG.

    5th edition shows that it's gone a long way since then, but it still adheres to a guessing game narrative that often drags the plot into a swamp to die a horrible death... to the point where you wish that would happen to your character.
    This is where it is important to have a good DM.  A good DM takes the 'rules' which in AD&D and 3.x were actually guidelines and makes an entertaining adventure for you and your friends.

    Heck, the only time we were strict with the rules is when we were getting ready to judge the AD&D (later the D&D) open tournament at Gencon each year :)
    Robsolf
  • MyrradahMyrradah Member UncommonPosts: 90
    THACO - Its the math I tell you. I love Math but some people do not understand that -1-1=-2 or for THACO purposes THACO 15 vs AC of -1 = 15--1 = 16.

    Drives me absolutely nuts today when i see kids adding basic numbers (like 8+5) by counting fingers....Kids that have, hopefully, graduated High School or i should say are in their 20's.

    God forbid you cast a fireball and have to add up d6's....
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,381
    Nyctelios said:
    Mendel said:
    I gave up following D&D with the 4th edition.  I didn't understand the move to more MMORPG-like conventions and systems, then expecting a human GM to implement these.  That edition might have worked as part of an actual computerized game, but they tried to make it a p&p game.  Unfathomable!
    You REALLY  should give 5thED a try. Like, for real, trust me on this.
    I've heard nothing but good about 5.  I pretty much gave up p&p gaming when MMORPGs started.  One of these days, I'll glance at the core rules, and if it's not another overly-reliant on "whatever the GM decides" edition, then I'll pick up a copy.  I've always been a fan of rules systems.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    waynejr2 said:
    Nyctelios said:
    waynejr2 said:

    Thac0 is a number you need to hit AC 0.  Suppose your Thac0 is 15.  Now, you might wonder how you hit AC 1?  You take Thac0 and subtract the AC to get the to hit number.  So 15 - 1 is 14.   If the AC was -1, you would do  15 - -1 for a 16.   And to be redundant, at AC0  15 - 0 = 15.  AC 10 would be 15 - 10 or 5 to hit.

    OR SIMPLY:  Take Thac0 and subtract the AC to know the minimum number to hit.
    That what "unnecessary complicated" means. 

    Where is the complicated?
    I think many people overthink THAC0.  I'm almost certain it's the positive/negative thing.  There's a similar mechanic in software I support that screws people up, royally.

    "My Thaco is 12.  I'm swinging at an AC of 5 so I have to roll a... 17?  Now I'm going after a badass with -2 AC... 10 shouldn't be too tough..."  If you're a "legacy" DnD player that way of thinking may seem absurd.  But it's very much totally NOT.

    All that is moot, these days, with touch attacks and ranged touch attacks and being caught flat-footed and sneak attacks and snack attacks, etc...
  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    Scott23 said:
    Robsolf said:
    Some, maybe.  On the other hand, if a game gives you a 20% chance to see a pit trap, then a 50% chance that you'll die when you fall into it, then I'd call that a pretty good reason to dislike a particular RPG.

    5th edition shows that it's gone a long way since then, but it still adheres to a guessing game narrative that often drags the plot into a swamp to die a horrible death... to the point where you wish that would happen to your character.
    This is where it is important to have a good DM.  A good DM takes the 'rules' which in AD&D and 3.x were actually guidelines and makes an entertaining adventure for you and your friends.

    Heck, the only time we were strict with the rules is when we were getting ready to judge the AD&D (later the D&D) open tournament at Gencon each year :)
    Agree 100%...-ish.  A good DM will either make the plot come to you in an interesting, challenging way, or make the lumbering slog to the plot actually interesting, and/or improvise with the players to do so. 

    Reading the room and pacing are crucial.  And when module makers create maps that are massively intricate and detailed, they think they are doing a service to the game and adding value.  To some, that's true.  But oh man, can that go wrong...


  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    Myrradah said:
    THACO - Its the math I tell you. I love Math but some people do not understand that -1-1=-2 or for THACO purposes THACO 15 vs AC of -1 = 15--1 = 16.

    Drives me absolutely nuts today when i see kids adding basic numbers (like 8+5) by counting fingers....Kids that have, hopefully, graduated High School or i should say are in their 20's.

    God forbid you cast a fireball and have to add up d6's....
    I provide support for financial software that does what thaco does.  Even though we provide tons of help guides to show them how a negative adjustment applies to a pay rate against a contract balance, they do it wrong at least as often as they do it right.

    God bless thac0 for helping me understand it fairly early on, but so many are deprived of the bizarre DnD schooling that I subjected myself to.

    Please save them, Sally Struthers...
  • MyrradahMyrradah Member UncommonPosts: 90
    edited August 2017
    Robsolf said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Nyctelios said:
    waynejr2 said:

    Thac0 is a number you need to hit AC 0.  Suppose your Thac0 is 15.  Now, you might wonder how you hit AC 1?  You take Thac0 and subtract the AC to get the to hit number.  So 15 - 1 is 14.   If the AC was -1, you would do  15 - -1 for a 16.   And to be redundant, at AC0  15 - 0 = 15.  AC 10 would be 15 - 10 or 5 to hit.

    OR SIMPLY:  Take Thac0 and subtract the AC to know the minimum number to hit.
    That what "unnecessary complicated" means. 

    Where is the complicated?
    I think many people overthink THAC0.  I'm almost certain it's the positive/negative thing.  There's a similar mechanic in software I support that screws people up, royally.

    "My Thaco is 12.  I'm swinging at an AC of 5 so I have to roll a... 17?  Now I'm going after a badass with -2 AC... 10 shouldn't be too tough..."  If you're a "legacy" DnD player that way of thinking may seem absurd.  But it's very much totally NOT.

    All that is moot, these days, with touch attacks and ranged touch attacks and being caught flat-footed and sneak attacks and snack attacks, etc...


    Im not sure if you meant this or not, but THACO 12 against AC 5 you need a 7 to hit. THACO 12 against a -2 you need a 14.
  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    Myrradah said:
    Robsolf said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Nyctelios said:
    waynejr2 said:

    Thac0 is a number you need to hit AC 0.  Suppose your Thac0 is 15.  Now, you might wonder how you hit AC 1?  You take Thac0 and subtract the AC to get the to hit number.  So 15 - 1 is 14.   If the AC was -1, you would do  15 - -1 for a 16.   And to be redundant, at AC0  15 - 0 = 15.  AC 10 would be 15 - 10 or 5 to hit.

    OR SIMPLY:  Take Thac0 and subtract the AC to know the minimum number to hit.
    That what "unnecessary complicated" means. 

    Where is the complicated?
    I think many people overthink THAC0.  I'm almost certain it's the positive/negative thing.  There's a similar mechanic in software I support that screws people up, royally.

    "My Thaco is 12.  I'm swinging at an AC of 5 so I have to roll a... 17?  Now I'm going after a badass with -2 AC... 10 shouldn't be too tough..."  If you're a "legacy" DnD player that way of thinking may seem absurd.  But it's very much totally NOT.

    All that is moot, these days, with touch attacks and ranged touch attacks and being caught flat-footed and sneak attacks and snack attacks, etc...


    Im not sure if you meant this or not, but THACO 12 against AC 5 you need a 7 to hit. THACO 12 against a -2 you need a 14.
    That's my point.  That's how the system works, but that's not how conventional minds see it.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Robsolf said:
    Scott23 said:
    This is where it is important to have a good DM.  A good DM takes the 'rules' which in AD&D and 3.x were actually guidelines and makes an entertaining adventure for you and your friends.

    Heck, the only time we were strict with the rules is when we were getting ready to judge the AD&D (later the D&D) open tournament at Gencon each year :)
    Agree 100%...-ish.  A good DM will either make the plot come to you in an interesting, challenging way, or make the lumbering slog to the plot actually interesting, and/or improvise with the players to do so. 

    Reading the room and pacing are crucial.  And when module makers create maps that are massively intricate and detailed, they think they are doing a service to the game and adding value.  To some, that's true.  But oh man, can that go wrong...
    Indeed, a good DM make a bad game fun and a good game awesome while a mediocre DM have rather the opposite effect.

    And I think reading your players is the far most important DM trait, you need all your players to have fun and be part of the story.

    Personally do I think the setting is more important then the rules as well (as long a sthe rules at least are playable). A good setting makes the players feel home and open up a lot for the DM.  With D&D I enjoy 3 settings: Forgotten realms, Dragonlance and Ravenloft. I alos have on and off mixed in a little Planescape. Sadly are more then a few of the other D&D settings rather badly written and I generally stay away from them.

    As for the rules less is usually better, AD&D were besides the Thac0 rather simple and we could focus on the story instead of the rules and 5th edition seems to do the same.

    Combat wise D&D never been my favorite game though, the fights are in my opinion D&Ds weakest points. Shadowrun is me personal favorite there but the classic first edition of Warhammer FRPG also had run fun combat. I am not 100% sure, maybe because those games have far more unpredictable systems where a hit can kill you no matter what or that I prefer the group dynamics and tactics of those games.

    I think D&D 5 is the best TSR/WotC have made in a long time but I still wish they made a new AD&D version instead. And for that matter that they retcon The Forgotten realms story and skipped the 100 year jump and the spellplague, It was a terrible idea that messed up a great campaign setting.
    Robsolf
  • KahrekKahrek Member UncommonPosts: 68
    Myrradah said:
    THACO - Its the math I tell you. I love Math but some people do not understand that -1-1=-2 or for THACO purposes THACO 15 vs AC of -1 = 15--1 = 16.

    Drives me absolutely nuts today when i see kids adding basic numbers (like 8+5) by counting fingers....Kids that have, hopefully, graduated High School or i should say are in their 20's.

    God forbid you cast a fireball and have to add up d6's....

    How about a magic missile with 5(D4+1) if i remember right.... I do ... hmmm.. 84 bazillion points of damage.
    ohioastro
  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,071
    I fire magic missile into the darkness.
    Sovrath
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,338
    edited July 5
    Myrradah said:
    THACO - Its the math I tell you. I love Math but some people do not understand that -1-1=-2 or for THACO purposes THACO 15 vs AC of -1 = 15--1 = 16.

    Drives me absolutely nuts today when i see kids adding basic numbers (like 8+5) by counting fingers....Kids that have, hopefully, graduated High School or i should say are in their 20's.

    God forbid you cast a fireball and have to add up d6's....
    Can't speak for the kids but you have to remember (or you must learn if you don't know) that not everyone's mind works the same way. 

    I can stand on stage and make up an entire scene without skipping a beat.

    If you asked me to make up a brand new melody on the spot it would come out as if I knew it all my life.

    But my head doesn't seem to like math. At all. It's like I feel my mind grinding to a halt and the numbers just slipping away as if they never were there.

    That's why I'm a big believer in Howard Gardner's theory on Multiple Intelligences. I've seen it first hand and live it first hand.

    So yeah, never like THACO.



  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,780
    Sovrath said:
    Myrradah said:
    THACO - Its the math I tell you. I love Math but some people do not understand that -1-1=-2 or for THACO purposes THACO 15 vs AC of -1 = 15--1 = 16.

    Drives me absolutely nuts today when i see kids adding basic numbers (like 8+5) by counting fingers....Kids that have, hopefully, graduated High School or i should say are in their 20's.

    God forbid you cast a fireball and have to add up d6's....
    Can't speak for the kids but you have to remember (or you must learn if you don't know) that not everyone's mind works the same way. 

    I can stand on stage and make up an entire scene without skipping a beat.

    If you asked me to make up a brand new melody on the spot it would come out as if I knew it all my life.

    But my head doesn't seem to like math. At all. It's like I feel my mind grinding to a halt and the numbers just slipping away as if they never were there.

    That's why I'm a big believer in Howard Gardner's theory on Multiple Intelligences. I've seen it first hand and live it first hand.

    So yeah, never like THACO.
    ThAC0 also changed a lot between editions becoming more complex with every addendum, update, and edition. It was easy to calculate ThAC0 in early to mid 1st edition rules, but it started to break down quickly after that. Modifers, conditional modifiers, damage types, and AC itself got reworked. In 1st ed the lower the AC the better. In later editions that flipped and higher numbers meant better AC. By mid 2nd ed to 3rd ed, defense and damage calculations could get very complicated with all the modifiers.

    The simple math was true in 1st edition, but I don't agree that is true in later versions. Even NWN CRPG has some very complex build and combat math.
    Sovrathdeniter
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  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,020
    Torval said:
    Sovrath said:
    Myrradah said:
    THACO - Its the math I tell you. I love Math but some people do not understand that -1-1=-2 or for THACO purposes THACO 15 vs AC of -1 = 15--1 = 16.

    Drives me absolutely nuts today when i see kids adding basic numbers (like 8+5) by counting fingers....Kids that have, hopefully, graduated High School or i should say are in their 20's.

    God forbid you cast a fireball and have to add up d6's....
    Can't speak for the kids but you have to remember (or you must learn if you don't know) that not everyone's mind works the same way. 

    I can stand on stage and make up an entire scene without skipping a beat.

    If you asked me to make up a brand new melody on the spot it would come out as if I knew it all my life.

    But my head doesn't seem to like math. At all. It's like I feel my mind grinding to a halt and the numbers just slipping away as if they never were there.

    That's why I'm a big believer in Howard Gardner's theory on Multiple Intelligences. I've seen it first hand and live it first hand.

    So yeah, never like THACO.
    ThAC0 also changed a lot between editions becoming more complex with every addendum, update, and edition. It was easy to calculate ThAC0 in early to mid 1st edition rules, but it started to break down quickly after that. Modifers, conditional modifiers, damage types, and AC itself got reworked. In 1st ed the lower the AC the better. In later editions that flipped and higher numbers meant better AC. By mid 2nd ed to 3rd ed, defense and damage calculations could get very complicated with all the modifiers.

    The simple math was true in 1st edition, but I don't agree that is true in later versions. Even NWN CRPG has some very complex build and combat math.
    I always thought of it this way. . Whatever your THACO is. . subract a negative AC from your roll. . add a positive AC to your roll.

    ie. AC -3 THACO 15. . I roll 12. . now -3. . I have 9. . I miss. . needed 15



    OR. . if it is negative it is harder so you need 3 over to hit a -3AC.
    My THACO is 12. . I need 3 more to hit AC -3. . so I need to roll a 15
    My THACO is 12. . I need 3 less to hit  AC 3 . . so I need to roll a 9

    I just didn't have a problem with it.  My math brain is messed though.  The reason I liked it was that a negative AC was something pretty sweet to have.  It was awesome to have a -3 AC
    Torval

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,150
    KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS!
    Torval

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  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,020
    KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS!
    Someone made a nice version with the original and a 5E version.  It was the first module I played :)

    Ahh here.  https://goodman-games.com/store/product/original-adventures-reincarnated-1-into-the-borderlands/

    Hardcover, 384 pages. Includes 16-page full color cover gallery.


    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

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