Your view on expansions

delete5230 · July 2019

Expansions have never sat well for me with mmorpgs. It's even to the point I'll not play a game I'm interested in starting or replay a game because of them.

World of Warcraft, Everquest 2 are my primary examples, theirs are simply too many of them to bother catching up…. I don’t want to put in the energy.

-World of Warcraft not so bad.

-Everquest 2 is a jigsaw puzzle where the player would have no clue where to begin. So many starting zones, some out dated some enhanced… where is the population?... that’s not a question, I don't even care to know. It's too butchered.

-Guildwars 2 and especially Dungeons and Dragons Online and so many others are the same but for different reasons. Guildwars 2 is dumbed down considerably simply to get players caught up to the point I don’t want to play AT ALL. Dungeons and Dragons Online is a butchered mess between expansions and "pay-for zones". Again I don’t want to play at all.

WHATS THE PROBLEM:

Well, it can be broken down to simple mathematics….. It's a math problem with seemingly no answer !!!..... As long as you have levels in an mmorpg it can't be fixed.

Problem one:

Playable zones 1-60+10+10+10

Problem two:

Class progression… Abilities are accumulative and same with gear…. Attempting to add to a game seems to be Butchered and a bad attempt with no solution.

EXPANTIONS ARE NOT BAD FOR EVERYONE:

Hardcore and die hards that keep the Mojo running benefit from expansions…. But many don't !!

I have no alternatives…. I don't think there is one…. How about you ?

Optional reading:

Several months ago I decided to dive deep into retail World of Warcraft just before the upcoming expansion "Battle for Azeroth".

But I was faced with a dilemma….. How do I do it, at what point do I want to do it ?

Blizzard offers a few choices

-Power level dumbed down content 1-110

-Take a 110 boost and ignore the leveling, leaving a small game.

Both choices were God awful….. Both options gave me a feeling of dread for many reasons I'll not detail. I spent days pondering how this would work. I even talked to a wow fan at work… He actually talked me out of it.

btdt · July 2019

Battle for Azeroth was/is god awful...

The conversation is moot.

delete5230 · July 2019

btdt said:

Battle for Azeroth was/is god awful...

The conversation is moot.

Unfortunately... this added to my final decision and outcome.

WhySoSerious · July 2019

"Expansion" is an evil word to me. I love Classic WoW, but every expansion made the game worse IMO. Flying Mounts in TBC, LFD in WotLK, etc.

At this point just give me a static MMO that I know I love (Classic WoW!), because I don't trust game devs to add new content I'll enjoy.

Aeander · July 2019

I generally prefer standalone campaigns (like Guild Wars Factions and Nightfall) over expansions.

Viper482 · July 2019

delete5230 said:

Expansions have never sat well for me with mmorpgs. It's even to the point I'll not play a game I'm interested in starting or replay a game because of them.

World of Warcraft, Everquest 2 are my primary examples, theirs are simply too many of them to bother catching up…. I don’t want to put in the energy.

None of this makes sense. If you are new most MMO's now include a boosted toon with their expansions so you can jump right in. WoW and EQ2, your two examples, both do this. So your point is baffling with that small fact alone. Do you even play these games or were you bored and needed a new thread? Because if you played you would know this.

Without expansions every MMO would die, period. They keep the game fresh. The only "alternative" would be to change the very foundation of MMO's, which typically involve some sort of progression and exploration along with story elements. If you don't add to that (or expand on it...pun intended...but is it really a pun?) interest in the game dies.

Now I am not saying I like every expansion or how they change crap, but the expansions themselves are typically a very exciting time for those who are fans of the game.

Viper482 · July 2019

WhySoSerious said:

"Expansion" is an evil word to me. I love Classic WoW, but every expansion made the game worse IMO. Flying Mounts in TBC, LFD in WotLK, etc.

At this point just give me a static MMO that I know I love (Classic WoW!), because I don't trust game devs to add new content I'll enjoy.

Do you dislike the concept of expansions or just how Blizzard has implemented it? Sounds to me like your issue is how they changed the heart of the game, not the fact they expanded the world and added content.

delete5230 · July 2019

Viper482 said:

delete5230 said:

Expansions have never sat well for me with mmorpgs. It's even to the point I'll not play a game I'm interested in starting or replay a game because of them.

World of Warcraft, Everquest 2 are my primary examples, theirs are simply too many of them to bother catching up…. I don’t want to put in the energy.

None of this makes sense. If you are new most MMO's now include a boosted toon with their expansions so you can jump right in. WoW and EQ2, your two examples, both do this. So your point is baffling with that small fact alone. Do you even play these games or were you bored and needed a new thread? Because if you played you would know this.

Without expansions every MMO would die, period. They keep the game fresh. The only "alternative" would be to change the very foundation of MMO's, which typically involve some sort of progression and exploration along with story elements. If you don't add to that (or expand on it...pun intended...but is it really a pun?) interest in the game dies.

Now I am not saying I like every expansion or how they change crap, but the expansions themselves are typically a very exciting time for those who are fans of the game.

Several things here.
Its true many mmos would die without expansions... I'm giving my reasons for not liking how they are done. Just like you gave your view. I also talked about it being exciting for the fans and die hards. " I ".... think boost suck, I covered that too...... maybe you should read the post... it's all in their.... If you disagree, thats ok, but it doesn't stop the fact that it's covered.

The point of this is not that expansions are bad, but wishing their was another way. BUT the math of how it has to be done prevents that.

Viper482 · July 2019

delete5230 said:

Viper482 said:

delete5230 said:

Expansions have never sat well for me with mmorpgs. It's even to the point I'll not play a game I'm interested in starting or replay a game because of them.

World of Warcraft, Everquest 2 are my primary examples, theirs are simply too many of them to bother catching up…. I don’t want to put in the energy.

None of this makes sense. If you are new most MMO's now include a boosted toon with their expansions so you can jump right in. WoW and EQ2, your two examples, both do this. So your point is baffling with that small fact alone. Do you even play these games or were you bored and needed a new thread? Because if you played you would know this.

Without expansions every MMO would die, period. They keep the game fresh. The only "alternative" would be to change the very foundation of MMO's, which typically involve some sort of progression and exploration along with story elements. If you don't add to that (or expand on it...pun intended...but is it really a pun?) interest in the game dies.

Now I am not saying I like every expansion or how they change crap, but the expansions themselves are typically a very exciting time for those who are fans of the game.

Several things here.
Its true many mmos would die without expansions... I'm giving my reasons for not liking how they are done. Just like you gave your view. I also talked about it being exciting for the fans and die hards. " I ".... think boost suck, I covered that too...... maybe you should read the post... it's all in their.... If you disagree, thats ok, but it doesn't stop the fact that it's covered.

The point of this is not that expansions are bad, but wishing their was another way. BUT the math of how it has to be done prevents that.

If you want people to read your entire post I would recommend not putting in a bottom line up front (BLUF). If I disagree with the premise of your argument there is no reason to further hear it out. You don't want expansions because they make you have to catch-up, they put in boosts to help you catch-up but you don't want that either. Maybe you just don't like MMO's?

Wizardry · July 2019

Many years ago i despised expansions,i felt like they were very lazy cheap ways to get more revenue.
The engine is already tooled,the systems already coded,pretty much everything is already in place.However over the years,i have seen some really good expansions,the next problem however is that they are forced purchases in a subscription game.If i am paying for your ongoing production,every month,i expect a nearly free expansion.

Bottom line,you have to weigh in with our own idea on value and is this a fair business transaction.I have lots of little things i look at to determine if the subscription/developer is trying to rip me off or is fair value.Then we have the f2p models,i am in no way in support of cash shops,i have always found that if you try to attain everything the game offers from a cash shop,meaning the ENTIRE game as meant to be played,it would cost way more than a subscription.

I feel cash shops need to be way over the top scams because devs/publishers have no guaranteed income,so they aim big.So in this situation the answer is very simple,if the game is making too much revenue,expansions should be FREE,if the cash shop is not,then they obviously would be forced to sell the xpack.However,don't expect any cash shop devs to have morals,...ok we really ripped off our customers,let's show our appreciation and give them a free xpack,that is NEVER happening,greed is on full alert.

Amathe · July 2019

I like expansions that build on, and stay true to, existing content. I don't like expansions that materially change the game and render existing content obsolete.

WhySoSerious · July 2019

Viper482 said:

WhySoSerious said:

"Expansion" is an evil word to me. I love Classic WoW, but every expansion made the game worse IMO. Flying Mounts in TBC, LFD in WotLK, etc.

At this point just give me a static MMO that I know I love (Classic WoW!), because I don't trust game devs to add new content I'll enjoy.

Do you dislike the concept of expansions or just how Blizzard has implemented it? Sounds to me like your issue is how they changed the heart of the game, not the fact they expanded the world and added content.

Right. I'd be okay with expansions that added things like new races or raids. It's when game systems are drastically changed that I start to get pissed off.

lahnmir · July 2019

I think expansions are very hard to pull off correctly.

Keep things the same as before and your audience might get bored. Change things too much and you might alienate your audience.

There is also a progress problem. With most games you fight wolves first and end up fighting the big bad evil (except you LotRO, there we always fight wolves, no matter how powerful we get). But when an expansion hit you will need to fight an ever bigger and badder evil or you won’t have that feeling of progress. Take that too far and things get silly. Remember TBC in WoW? Now you were fighting boars from hell, with spikes and flames just to show the player that they weren’t those ordinary boars from 30 levels ago. Do that for three expansions and you’ll be fighting god at the end, or the entire universe.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Mendel · July 2019

'Expansion' is a convenient term for monetized content beyond the initial purchase. Expansions can contain new minor game systems, but more likely build on the same ideas (and mechanics) as before.

If you want more content from a game, then an expansion is your answer.

Albatroes · July 2019

In terms of execution, I've only found maybe 3~ mmorpgs that have pulled off expansions 'correctly' imo of course, those being: FFXI, Archeage and ESO.

FFXI's very first expansion, RoZ, raise the cap from 50 to 75 and the cap stayed 75 until Abyssea. Over that time, a variety of systems were added and expanded on (dynamis/limbus/Salvage/Sky/Sea/etc). However, the most important thing was that each expansion that was added to the game, added something for everyone at every stage of the game, not just adding a new 'endgame' area to funnel people into. You would get new areas to level in for various level ranges, new classes that could be accessed fairly early on (lvl 30), as well as the progression through that expansion being its own thing, rather then being eclipsed or making previous stuff obsolete.

Archeage, after 55, just went the more horizontal route and just gave you side levels that ended up allowing you to augment existing abilities. Granted the game is still a swipers paradise, the groundwork for the game pretty much made it so that a lot of time you spent in the game wasn't overwritten by future content. Even if you look at the Hiram gearing system, it essentially makes it more realistic for newer players to get involved in the game without as much of a swipe-gate. As for other choices, like skill changes, that will end up being an undoing in its own right. One step forward, 2 steps backwards always with this game.

ESO only works because of the scaling but they do add activities for a variety of people, regardless of when you started. The overall problem of ESO is that you can essentially reach the same point at relatively the same speed as anyone else regardless of how you play, which in turn doesn't add weight to any activity you do. The overall point of getting strong in a mmorpg (I feel) is to open up more stuff to you that you couldn't do before. If you're able to do anything you want, however you want to do it, it doesn't add motivation to really do anything in the long term.

iixviiiix · July 2019

Expansions

Doom of the game

Time to move to another game .

gervaise1 · July 2019

Albatroes said:

In terms of execution, I've only found maybe 3~ mmorpgs that have pulled off expansions 'correctly' imo of course, those being: FFXI, Archeage and ESO.

<snip>

ESO only works because of the scaling but they do add activities for a variety of people, regardless of when you started. The overall problem of ESO is that you can essentially reach the same point at relatively the same speed as anyone else regardless of how you play, which in turn doesn't add weight to any activity you do. The overall point of getting strong in a mmorpg (I feel) is to open up more stuff to you that you couldn't do before. If you're able to do anything you want, however you want to do it, it doesn't add motivation to really do anything in the long term.

Good points. And maybe a common element?

ESO actually has "levels" - pretty long thread on scaling in which ESO was discussed to death! Its just very gradual - and takes a long time. What was touched on at the end as well was its squished nature.

Squished since whilst there are minions and super hard mobs there is no such thing as a "grey" mob that will ignore you because the level cap has been cranked up.

I brought up CoX late in the thread - very different example of scaling - but as with Archeage after 50 all progression is "horizontal" (done differently but levels stop). And in both games all (max level) mobs remain potentially dangerous.

(And whilst it didn't have expansions it had lots of quarterly updates. (CoV being a companion to CoH rather than an expansion).

centkin · July 2019

Heh, I remember when expansions were huge... I mean look at original Everquest then when Kunark was released.

cheyane · July 2019

centkin said:

Heh, I remember when expansions were huge... I mean look at original Everquest then when Kunark was released.

Kunark is easily one of the best ever expansions ever done.

delete5230 · July 2019

I'm all for expantions but how they are made by often making old content worthless.

I wish their were a better way.

Tindale111 · July 2019

TBC for me anyway was a great expansion. except for one thing which was all your elite gear that you had worked for for the 1st 2 years became redundant by a load of green drops in the first zone. im all for the gear getting better each expansion i mean we all want something better but they could have made you work for it

Kyleran · July 2019

DMKano said:

Without adding more content - every MMO would lose vast majority of the playerbase within 6 months.

Expansions are the large content updates that reinvigorate the playerbase.

It's the best option there is so far

Don't most MMORPGs lose a vast majority of their player bases in 6 months or less regardless?

Seems like a losing proposition.

Kyleran · July 2019

Amathe said:

I like expansions that build on, and stay true to, existing content. I don't like expansions that materially change the game and render existing content obsolete.

As some mention, this is very hard for devs to pull off, especially with endlessly leveling based content.

The more successful long term MMORPGs such as ESO (post One Tameril) or EVE manage to expand core content without drastically altering the experience most players enjoy.

Even Blizzard's devs have acknowledged how expansions have lead to undesirable power creep and are exploring ways to flatten it somehow.

If successful, WOW Classic might become the ultimate testimate of how expansions can be "bad" for a game considering how many appear to be clamoring for its return.

GeezerGamer · July 2019

I think the OP is oversimplifying based on his own opinion and lack of information.
I can name some MMORPG expansions that don't fit OP's description.

AlBQuirky · July 2019

Amathe said:

I like expansions that build on, and stay true to, existing content. I don't like expansions that materially change the game and render existing content obsolete.

This would be me, too. I've rarely seen it but EQ had a few that just added content without changing the core game too much (Kunark, Velious, Luclin). Unfortunately, EQ also had expansions that drastically changed the core game (LDoN and the like).

Adding new lands to explore and adventure in or new races to experience are good things, in my opinion. Having a strong story to start with leads MMOs down a road that will keep the bloat growing, in my opinion. Each new "chapter" needs stronger, tougher bosses to try to outshine the old bosses.

I understand the reason for expansions, eloquently put by DMKano. Many of the players that move on come back for each expansion, as WoW has shown. But they leave again when the content is consumed and don't log in again until the next expansion comes out.

I guess it really just depends on the game and what its focus is, like raiding or PvP or PvE activities.

JeffSpicoli · July 2019

Has delete5230 gone legit, Is he a serious forum contributor now. I like the old squirrel better

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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