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This is NOT the Alterac Valley you are looking for...

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 901
    edited June 15
    TEKK3N said:

    People who loved vanilla loved TBC and WOTLK too...

    Ehhhh.....That's a bit of a stretch.
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 609
    edited June 15
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    People who loved vanilla loved TBC and WOTLK too...

    Ehhhh.....That's a bit of a stretch.
    Not really.
    I read WOW forums, and most people consider the trinity (Vanilla, TBC, WOTLK) as the best versions of WoW.
    Sure some might prefer WOTLK rather than TBC or TBC instead of Vanilla.
    But if Blizzard had based Classic on a TBC or WOTLK I can assure that the majority of Vanilla fans would have jumped at the chance to play those expansions too.

    I personally think that Classic should be Vanilla+TBC+WOTLK. Up until the first half of WOTLK the game still has a Vanilla feel, which is what I am looking for, I don't necessarily want to play only Vanilla.
    I just want to play the Vanilla Gameplay, that's why I am open to new content for Classic, and I am sure many players want the same.
    Jean-Luc_Picardjimmywolf
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,006
    I personally consider WotLK as the best WoW period (before the dungeon finder), it also has the best raid ever (Ulduar).
    But the best AV was the first one.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 901
    TEKK3N said:
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    People who loved vanilla loved TBC and WOTLK too...

    Ehhhh.....That's a bit of a stretch.
    Not really.
    I read WOW forums, and most people consider the trinity (Vanilla, TBC, WOTLK) as the best versions of WoW.
    Sure some might prefer WOTLK rather than TBC or TBC instead of Vanilla.
    But if Blizzard had based Classic on a TBC or WOTLK I can assure that the majority of Vanilla fans would have jumped at the chance to play those expansions too.

    I personally think that Classic should be Vanilla+TBC+WOTLK. Up until the first half of WOTLK the game still has a Vanilla feel, which is what I am looking for, I don't necessarily want to play only Vanilla.
    I just want to play the Vanilla Gameplay, that's why I am open to new content for Classic, and I am sure many players want the same.
    You can argue for mechanics or otherwise, but there's also plenty that found those same expansions to be the first slide down as far as game world and narrative too. Reading WoW forums only gets you as far as those who were content with that slide.
    SBFordacidblood
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 609
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    I can assure you that it wasn't a slow process, it was really sudden.
    Half way through WOTLK the gameplay completely changed to what is now, more or less.
    Of course it got worse with each expansion, but the real damage started back then.

    I remember clearly as if it was yesterday the first time I run a dungeon as a healer (after few months break) and the tank started pulling 2-3 groups at once and I was like "WTF are you doing noob?".
    Little did I know that the WOW I've been playing just 3 months ago was gone forever.
    Gdemamibcbully
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,006
    TEKK3N said:
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    I can assure you that it wasn't a slow process, it was really sudden.
    Half way through WOTLK the gameplay completely changed to what is now, more or less.
    Of course it got worse with each expansion, but the real damage started back then.

    I remember clearly as if it was yesterday the first time I run a dungeon as a healer (after few months break) and the tank started pulling 2-3 groups at once and I was like "WTF are you doing noob?".
    Little did I know that the WOW I've been playing just 3 months ago was gone forever.
    I don't exactly agree with this. The real downfall started with Cata and was hammered down with Pandaria. That's when the talent trees first became restricted, making hybrids impossible, and then removed to be replaced with the "click 5 buttons and be done" version.

    Sure, the multi-server dungeon finder of the end of WotLK weren't a good thing (in my opinion), they were the beginning, but it still was a long process that took two expansions.
    TEKK3NIselinTorval
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 609
    edited June 15
    TEKK3N said:
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    I don't exactly agree with this. The real downfall started with Cata and was hammered down with Pandaria. That's when the talent trees first became restricted, making hybrids impossible, and then removed to be replaced with the "click 5 buttons and be done" version.

    Sure, the multi-server dungeon finder of the end of WotLK weren't a good thing (in my opinion), they were the beginning, but it still was a long process that took two expansions.
    Sure that's when it became crystal clear.
    But if you played WOTLK, you sure remember the day when instead of pulling a group at a time, tanks started pulling 2-3 groups with no rest time, no CC and zero tactics.
    That was the start of the downfall in my opinion, because what I loved about Vanilla gameplay the most, was the slow paced dungeon runs which required tactics and coordination between players to clear thrash mobs.
    With this type of gameplay gone, I lost all my interest in WOW.
    Of course I played CATA, Panda and WOD, hoping that Blizzard would come to their senses, but never happened.
    Garrisons where the last nail in the coffin for me, fuck that.
    Worst ever feature in a MMORPG, that's when I finally realized Blizzard had no clue and it was a lost cause.

    But I agree WOTLK first half was probably the best WOW, but towards the end it was the beginning of the downfall.
    bcbully
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 901
    Given I noted "game world and lore" as the issue, as opposed to strictly the mechanics of play, kinda arguing something different there. 
  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 5,956
    edited June 15
    TEKK3N said:
    TEKK3N said:
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    I don't exactly agree with this. The real downfall started with Cata and was hammered down with Pandaria. That's when the talent trees first became restricted, making hybrids impossible, and then removed to be replaced with the "click 5 buttons and be done" version.

    Sure, the multi-server dungeon finder of the end of WotLK weren't a good thing (in my opinion), they were the beginning, but it still was a long process that took two expansions.
    Sure that's when it became crystal clear.
    But if you played WOTLK, you sure remember the day when instead of pulling a group at a time, tanks started pulling 2-3 groups with no rest time, no CC and zero tactics.
    That was the start of the downfall in my opinion, because what I loved about Vanilla gameplay the most, was the slow paced dungeon runs which required tactics and coordination between players to clear thrash mobs.
    With this type of gameplay gone, I lost all my interest in WOW.
    Of course I played CATA, Panda and WOD, hoping that Blizzard would come to their senses, but never happened.
    Garrisons where the last nail in the coffin for me, fuck that.
    Worst ever feature in a MMORPG, that's when I finally realized Blizzard had no clue and it was a lost cause.

    But I agree WOTLK first half was probably the best WOW, but towards the end it was the beginning of the downfall.
    Honestly? I prefer the Cata WoW, but I was never the real demographic for MMOs. Honestly, I wasn't. Cata onwards just feels good, as opposed to "death by million little delays" that was pre Cata WoW(I'm almost certain that all those tiny delays aren't coincidental and that they are meant to make you sub a month more than you'd've otherwise). But that's the same reason I don't like Football(Steelers et al) when I do like Rugby. Football is just too damn chopped up.

    I never liked that you needed to rest, to plan heavily etc etc. As I said, I'm more of an aRPG player, but a lot of IPs simply weren't(or still aren't) available outside MMO genre. Much to my dismay tbh.
  • ElonMuskElonMusk Member UncommonPosts: 45
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    People who loved vanilla loved TBC and WOTLK too...

    Ehhhh.....That's a bit of a stretch.
    Wrong
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 609
    edited June 15
    Gorwe said:
    TEKK3N said:

    Honestly? I prefer the Cata WoW, but I was never the real demographic for MMOs. Honestly, I wasn't. Cata onwards just feels good, as opposed to "death by million little delays" that was pre Cata WoW(I'm almost certain that all those tiny delays aren't coincidental and that they are meant to make you sub a month more than you'd've otherwise). But that's the same reason I don't like Football(Steelers et al) when I do like Rugby. Football is just too damn chopped up.

    I never liked that you needed to rest, to plan heavily etc etc. As I said, I'm more of an aRPG player, but a lot of IPs simply weren't(or still aren't) available outside MMO genre. Much to my dismay tbh.
    Sure, people are different.
    Some people likes more CATA or PANDA. Some even like BFA!
    Can't argue with taste.

    But in general, what made the original WOW addictive for most of us, by CATA it was gone.
    Blizzard focused on a difference audience and WOW became a different game to accommodate their taste.

    Problem is that CATA and PANDA were still good expansion for this new audience, but Blizzard weren't happy as they were determined to royally fuck the game, so they kept pushing the boundaries.
    So today, with BFA, almost everyone hates the game, even the CATA children.
    Gorwebcbully
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,094
    edited June 15
    At least the last poster is honest,i have mentioned often that i feel a VERY high majority of mmorpg players are NOT rpg gamer's.ARPG's imo should not even use the letters rpg,they are nothing that a rpg should be and the term "action" is badly misused.I cal lit SPAM killing and that is the ONLY thing arpg's do.
    I do not understand the dislike for planning/strategy it is imo what gaming should be ,similar to sports,without it you have what i call EASY mode which is basically what arpg's are.If you don't want a challenge from your opposition ,be it real life sports or gaming why have an opponent at all,to just lay down and concede?

    The oft argument to Wow being better in vanilla i would agree with and imo is an EASY decision but i never said vanilla was very good either.
    I feel the EQ/FFXI template was THE starting point and that everything should improve beyond that point.20 years later and the very idea that the vast majority complained about for years,still holds true game play>graphics and so far all we are getting is graphics but no improvement on game play.

    I felt like and mentioned it a few times that within FFXI,Square Enix did TOO much,they left little room for new ideas so all that was left was to improve the already in place systems.None the less games like Wow should have seen the MUCH better systems and went to improve them but instead chose to copy exactly EQ2 which leads me to think they were playing the testing version and did try to copy it.

    I can't possibly know what the staff within Blizzard were thinking,they managed in several ways to REMOVE immersion from a genre where it should exist.Was it a FAST decision making process,aiming for hand holding EASE of introduction to entice more players,more non rpg gamer's to make more sales...idk what they were thinking.I heard at the beginning many claim Wow was done low end to entice more players,well if that was true,they were after money it would support my claim of worrying more about numbers than the game design.
    IMO Wow was designed way too much like all those cheap Asian/Korean mmorpg's,not a lot of thought put into them,just whip it out and make it easy to play so you can get as many customers as possible.





    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 901
    ElonMusk said:
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    People who loved vanilla loved TBC and WOTLK too...

    Ehhhh.....That's a bit of a stretch.
    Wrong
    Given I'm a person that loved the original, but was not big on the direction TBC and WOTLK took things, not wrong.

    This is a matter of opinion, and you nor he speaks for me when it comes to that.
    mmolou
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,539
    I miss the old AV as well, but even if it was included in the game I still would have no interest in returning to Classic Wow. I had my days in the sun there and have no desire to return. Eight hours in a single battleground or weeks to max level a character? No thanks, I'm busy. However for those of you who still enjoy Wow just not what Ion and his team of rejects have butchered modern Wow into, Classic wow should be right up your street.
    MadFrenchie

    "You can go to land of make believe and you can pretend
    But in the end you still have no friends"

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 5,956
    TEKK3N said:
    Gorwe said:
    TEKK3N said:

    Honestly? I prefer the Cata WoW, but I was never the real demographic for MMOs. Honestly, I wasn't. Cata onwards just feels good, as opposed to "death by million little delays" that was pre Cata WoW(I'm almost certain that all those tiny delays aren't coincidental and that they are meant to make you sub a month more than you'd've otherwise). But that's the same reason I don't like Football(Steelers et al) when I do like Rugby. Football is just too damn chopped up.

    I never liked that you needed to rest, to plan heavily etc etc. As I said, I'm more of an aRPG player, but a lot of IPs simply weren't(or still aren't) available outside MMO genre. Much to my dismay tbh.
    Sure, people are different.
    Some people likes more CATA or PANDA. Some even like BFA!
    Can't argue with taste.

    But in general, what made the original WOW addictive for most of us, by CATA it was gone.
    Blizzard focused on a difference audience and WOW became a different game to accommodate their taste.

    Problem is that CATA and PANDA were still good expansion for this new audience, but Blizzard weren't happy as they were determined to royally fuck the game, so they kept pushing the boundaries.
    So today, with BFA, almost everyone hates the game, even the CATA children.
    Completely agreed. With that said I haven't even tried Legio BfA. I know how vanilla - WoTLK and Cata / Panda feel. I prefer Cata / Panda, even if I am kinda disturbed by all the missing quests from Vanilla(Cata just feels like WoW 1.5 imo ; like a soft sequel). The ovrall gameplay though? Cata all the way.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,475
    TEKK3N said:
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    I can assure you that it wasn't a slow process, it was really sudden.
    Half way through WOTLK the gameplay completely changed to what is now, more or less.
    Of course it got worse with each expansion, but the real damage started back then.

    I remember clearly as if it was yesterday the first time I run a dungeon as a healer (after few months break) and the tank started pulling 2-3 groups at once and I was like "WTF are you doing noob?".
    Little did I know that the WOW I've been playing just 3 months ago was gone forever.
    I don't exactly agree with this. The real downfall started with Cata and was hammered down with Pandaria. That's when the talent trees first became restricted, making hybrids impossible, and then removed to be replaced with the "click 5 buttons and be done" version.

    Sure, the multi-server dungeon finder of the end of WotLK weren't a good thing (in my opinion), they were the beginning, but it still was a long process that took two expansions.
    I remember it well since that was the time when I was playing WoW a lot more than any other time before or since. Technically it was the last WotLK patch just before Cata that got that ball rolling.

    The biggest shocker for me at that time was when the protection paladin's shield throw started out DPSing my ret build... like WTF? Why do I even bother to play the ret version?

    Cata was a big turn off and the only reason I enjoyed Pandaria was because I really liked all 3 versions of the Monk.  
    KyleranJean-Luc_Picard
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 5,956
    Iselin said:
    TEKK3N said:
    Limnic said:
    TEKK3N said:

    I can assure you that it wasn't a slow process, it was really sudden.
    Half way through WOTLK the gameplay completely changed to what is now, more or less.
    Of course it got worse with each expansion, but the real damage started back then.

    I remember clearly as if it was yesterday the first time I run a dungeon as a healer (after few months break) and the tank started pulling 2-3 groups at once and I was like "WTF are you doing noob?".
    Little did I know that the WOW I've been playing just 3 months ago was gone forever.
    I don't exactly agree with this. The real downfall started with Cata and was hammered down with Pandaria. That's when the talent trees first became restricted, making hybrids impossible, and then removed to be replaced with the "click 5 buttons and be done" version.

    Sure, the multi-server dungeon finder of the end of WotLK weren't a good thing (in my opinion), they were the beginning, but it still was a long process that took two expansions.
    I remember it well since that was the time when I was playing WoW a lot more than any other time before or since. Technically it was the last WotLK patch just before Cata that got that ball rolling.

    The biggest shocker for me at that time was when the protection paladin's shield throw started out DPSing my ret build... like WTF? Why do I even bother to play the ret version?

    Cata was a big turn off and the only reason I enjoyed Pandaria was because I really liked all 3 versions of the Monk.  
    What did you dislike so much about Cata?
  • Siris23Siris23 Member UncommonPosts: 355
    Yep sorry guys, it's not true old school AV with NPCs and where fights could last days. It's already grindvalley, just slightly different.
    First time I'm doubting about Classic, this was a part I was expecting a LOT from, and they failed.
    It amazes me the number of "Vanilla Fanboys" that are just completely ignorant of WoW's patch history. As soon as they announced it was 1.12 I knew it it was going to be crap AV because it had been nerfed into the ground by then.

    Did you even play Vanilla?
  • StizzledStizzled Member RarePosts: 1,922
    edited June 15
    Galadourn said:
    I think the confusion is caused by the fact that Nostalrius (and other servers) were using pre-1.12 AV in the game; however, this was not historically accurate in terms of patch progression.
    Yeah, Nost used an approximation of the original AV. Yet, games still lasted less than an hour.

    It wouldn't have mattered what version of AV Blizz used, the games still wouldn't last as long as they originally did. Players learn what works best, and just like it no longer takes 12 hours to clear MC it no longer takes 3 days to finish an AV.

    This isn't Blizzard's fault. They can only recreate the game, not the experiences someone originally had. People are starting to realize that many of the things they remember from Vanilla didn't happen due to Vanilla's design, but due to players having no clue how to play it properly.

    Edit: Not speaking directly to you, @Galadourn, just piggybacking off your Nost comment.
    mmolouGorwe
  • Branko2307Branko2307 Member UncommonPosts: 315
    lahnmir said:
    Bye Classic!

    Sincerely, a huge oldschool AV fan.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    Damn and here we are all hoping to see you in Classic wow...

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Holy Flamin' Frost-Brand Gronk-Slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' Woundin' an' Returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-Out-Yer-Bum!! ~Planescape: Torment~

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,550
    lahnmir said:
    Bye Classic!

    Sincerely, a huge oldschool AV fan.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    Damn and here we are all hoping to see you in Classic wow...
    Yeah, I know. Sorry man.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • Psychos1sPsychos1s Member UncommonPosts: 176
    Siris23 said:
    Yep sorry guys, it's not true old school AV with NPCs and where fights could last days. It's already grindvalley, just slightly different.
    First time I'm doubting about Classic, this was a part I was expecting a LOT from, and they failed.
    It amazes me the number of "Vanilla Fanboys" that are just completely ignorant of WoW's patch history. As soon as they announced it was 1.12 I knew it it was going to be crap AV because it had been nerfed into the ground by then.

    Did you even play Vanilla?
    Thing is they could've kept the patch history and just left out the nerfs to AV. I mean damn, people have been asking for old style AV nearly as long as they've been asking for classic servers. Of course on the flip side, at the time a bunch of people used to moan about how long AV was and that it was inefficient for PvP grinding.

    They could easily leave out the various nerfs that AV received. It would have zero effect on any other part of the game. For me the original AV was an epic brawl with WSG and AB being the more serious PvP options.
  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 554
    Tiller said:
    Nothing is ever what you remember it was when you experienced it the first time.
    I agree with the OP, that shit is NOT old school AV.   Not even close.  Just like the entire beta client isn't close to old school  classic WoW. 
  • bcbullybcbully Member RarePosts: 9,650
    Sad to hear about AV. I started about two weeks before BC. For years I heard about the days long AV and wished I could play it.
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,196
    Psychos1s said:
    Siris23 said:
    Yep sorry guys, it's not true old school AV with NPCs and where fights could last days. It's already grindvalley, just slightly different.
    First time I'm doubting about Classic, this was a part I was expecting a LOT from, and they failed.
    It amazes me the number of "Vanilla Fanboys" that are just completely ignorant of WoW's patch history. As soon as they announced it was 1.12 I knew it it was going to be crap AV because it had been nerfed into the ground by then.

    Did you even play Vanilla?
    Thing is they could've kept the patch history and just left out the nerfs to AV. I mean damn, people have been asking for old style AV nearly as long as they've been asking for classic servers. Of course on the flip side, at the time a bunch of people used to moan about how long AV was and that it was inefficient for PvP grinding.

    They could easily leave out the various nerfs that AV received. It would have zero effect on any other part of the game. For me the original AV was an epic brawl with WSG and AB being the more serious PvP options.
    Blizzard is releasing Classic exactly as it was with patch 1.12

    No changes or additions because that is what the players wanted. Right?

    This is why "Classic" servers fail, the players have this idea of what they liked and want from Classic but their memory is all jumbled. You cant have class balance from this patch, the Battlegrounds from this patch and the raids and dungeons from another patch.
    SBFordPalebaneKyleranSiris23
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