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Is Scaling content a good thing?

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited June 2019
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
    Those two are not trials - they are vet 4-man dungeons which, as I said above, come in a whole range of difficulties from the trivial FG1, BC1 and Spindleclutch 1 all the way up to the DLC dungeons that are much harder.

    But yeah it was a trick because I picked 2 bosses from 2 dungeons that are extremely difficult to do without a healer - and not just any healer, a great one like me :)
    gervaise1
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited June 2019
    Iselin said:nu 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
    Those two are not trials - they are vet 4-man dungeons which, as I said above, come in a whole range of difficulties from the trivial FG1, BC1 and Spindleclutch 1 all the way up to the DLC dungeons that are much harder.

    But yeah it was a trick because I picked 2 bosses from 2 dungeons that are extremely difficult to do without a healer - and not just any healer, a great one like me :)
    Nit picking for no reason , like I said 90% of the game is easy spam mode ... We can back forth about which 3% of end game is more difficult , but that does not change the fact that 90% of the game has 0 tactics needed and is spam mode , a player should not have to get to that that point of end game in any game to find challenge, that is the point and holds true with ESO
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:nu 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
    Those two are not trials - they are vet 4-man dungeons which, as I said above, come in a whole range of difficulties from the trivial FG1, BC1 and Spindleclutch 1 all the way up to the DLC dungeons that are much harder.

    But yeah it was a trick because I picked 2 bosses from 2 dungeons that are extremely difficult to do without a healer - and not just any healer, a great one like me :)
    Nit picking for no reason , like I said 90% of the game is easy spam mode ... We can back forth about which 3% of end game is more difficult , but that does not change the fact that 90% of the game has 0 tactics needed and is spam mode , a player should not have to get to that that point of end game in any game to find challenge, that is the point and holds true with ESO
    So why do I see people dying around me all the time in content that's easy for me?

    It's probably the same reason why I can do GR100 and easily farm T16 content in D3 within the first 3 weeks of a season and yet I see new posts in the D3 reddit constantly from people asking for help because they can't do GR20 or get slaughtered in anything higher than T4.

    I know I'm better at ESO than most simply because I've been playing it for 5 years, I know how to animation cancel (lol) and have a shit ton of CP. But I'm not elitist and dismissive of its difficulty when I know for a fact that many struggle with the basics.

    And like I said, this has fuck all to do with level scaling... speaking of random internet noise.


    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited June 2019
    Iselin said:nu
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:nu 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
    Those two are not trials - they are vet 4-man dungeons which, as I said above, come in a whole range of difficulties from the trivial FG1, BC1 and Spindleclutch 1 all the way up to the DLC dungeons that are much harder.

    But yeah it was a trick because I picked 2 bosses from 2 dungeons that are extremely difficult to do without a healer - and not just any healer, a great one like me :)
    Nit picking for no reason , like I said 90% of the game is easy spam mode ... We can back forth about which 3% of end game is more difficult , but that does not change the fact that 90% of the game has 0 tactics needed and is spam mode , a player should not have to get to that that point of end game in any game to find challenge, that is the point and holds true with ESO
    So why do I see people dying around me all the time in content that's easy for me?

    It's probably the same reason why I can do GR100 and easily farm T16 content in D3 within the first 3 weeks of a season and yet I see new posts in the D3 reddit constantly from people asking for help because they can't do GR20 or get slaughtered in anything higher than T4.

    I know I'm better at ESO than most simply because I've been playing it for 5 years, I know how to animation cancel (lol) and have a shit ton of CP. But I'm not elitist and dismissive of its difficulty when I know for a fact that many struggle with the basics.

    And like I said, this has fuck all to do with level scaling... speaking of random internet noise.


    It has everything to do with scaling,and as you see from. This thread other people express similar concerns , now everyone has different expectations of challenge in gameplay( some higher than others) thruout the game not just at the end game  , which you made a fine example of again with D3 , there is  no challenge there either till T7 about , the majority of D3 is also ez mode spam fest.. till endgame... same as  ESO , thx for reinforcing that point with another example
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    AlBQuirky said:
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?
    How many MMORPG and RPG have level systems? A ton. Means it is well documented. It is literally the easiest way to gate and control content flow.  Level scaling is leveling plus another variable so obviously it is more complex.  
    Amaranthar
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759
    edited June 2019
    AlBQuirky said:
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?
    How many MMORPG and RPG have level systems? A ton. Means it is well documented. It is literally the easiest way to gate and control content flow.  Level scaling is leveling plus another variable so obviously it is more complex.  
    But scaling is not a vertical progression thing. In fact scaling is completely merged into the core of horizontal progression, which not only makes it impossible to remove from a horizontal progression concept, but scaling is a defining problem with horizontal progression.

    As you might sense, I do not think horizontal progression is a solution to anything, as it brings as many problems as it theoretically solve. I know you won't agree as you are pushing horizontal agenda with most of your posts. I am sure we agree on defining a lot of problems, just not on the conclusion that horizontal "progression" solves anything :D
    My opinion is that horizontal is the removal of progression, which is conceptually the same as vertical progression with scaling, and therefore have the same innate problems.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    kjempff said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?
    How many MMORPG and RPG have level systems? A ton. Means it is well documented. It is literally the easiest way to gate and control content flow.  Level scaling is leveling plus another variable so obviously it is more complex.  
    But scaling is not a vertical progression thing. In fact scaling is completely merged into the core of horizontal progression, which not only makes it impossible to remove from a horizontal progression concept, but scaling is a defining problem with horizontal progression.

    As you might sense, I do not think horizontal progression is a solution to anything, as it brings as many problems as it theoretically solve. I know you won't agree as you are pushing horizontal agenda with most of your posts. I am sure we agree on defining a lot of problems, just not on the conclusion that horizontal "progression" solves anything :D
    My opinion is that horizontal is the removal of progression, which is conceptually the same as vertical progression with scaling, and therefore have the same innate problems.
    This is a confusing argument.

    Scaling is a vertical progression thing. It has to do with players and/or the environment being matched up or down to the other side.

    Horizontal progression does not, at it's basic level, have anything for you to scale in such a manner. It's an inherently flat system, and consequently scaling is simply unnecessary unless someone adds some form of vertical progression on top of the horizontal.

    Would be curious as to why you believe horizontal progression removes progression, as I know I gave an example prior in this thread that still has the notion of unlocking new skills and pushing your stats from being flat into having clearly defined/specialized roles.

    That itself is progression. Numbers just getting universally bigger does not make progression itself meaningful, especially so if things are level-scaled any ways by each new area and relevant content simply being upped in level to compare as it the case in traditional vertical progression environments any ways.
    Amaranthargervaise1Steelhelm
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    kjempff said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?
    How many MMORPG and RPG have level systems? A ton. Means it is well documented. It is literally the easiest way to gate and control content flow.  Level scaling is leveling plus another variable so obviously it is more complex.  
    But scaling is not a vertical progression thing. In fact scaling is completely merged into the core of horizontal progression, which not only makes it impossible to remove from a horizontal progression concept, but scaling is a defining problem with horizontal progression.

    As you might sense, I do not think horizontal progression is a solution to anything, as it brings as many problems as it theoretically solve. I know you won't agree as you are pushing horizontal agenda with most of your posts. I am sure we agree on defining a lot of problems, just not on the conclusion that horizontal "progression" solves anything :D
    My opinion is that horizontal is the removal of progression, which is conceptually the same as vertical progression with scaling, and therefore have the same innate problems.
    Most horizontal progression is vertical progression.  It is just way flatter.  Things should be baseline.  Like you get fireball that does AE when all you had was the initial fire strike that did less damage and single target.  You don't get 10 million HP because you are tank. 

    No, horizontal progression doesn't create problems.  There are can be design choices that can be troublesome for horizontal progression.  Like if you do not create challenging NPCs you will not have a challenge.  

    Horizontal game a rat is weak and will give you a small challenge as a newbie.  You get stronger and can likely one shot it.. A demon will crush you as a newbie.  As a vet you can win with difficulty.

    Typcial vertical progression a rat is weak level 1 and gives you standard challenge of an equal level character.  You level up now you can one shot it.  You die to a demon until you are close to equal level.  Being the same level as thr demon is as challenging as a rat thr same level. 2 expansions later a rat 10 levels higher than you can kill you and the demon in an single AoE swipe.  You can now one shot the demon.  


  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759
    edited June 2019
    Horizontal progression does not, at it's basic level, have anything for you to scale in such a manner. It's an inherently flat system, and consequently scaling is simply unnecessary unless someone adds some form of vertical progression on top of the horizontal.
    As you also said, obviously it makes no sense to apply scaling to a horizontal concept. That is because horizontal is already scaled by design. You call it "flat" which to me is the same concept as scaling, which when applied also has the purpose of flattening. That scaling may have started as temporary scaling of either characters or mobs, it is now in many games permanent scaling allowing entry for anyone at any progression point .. which means it might as well have been designed as horizontal - Both (mostly) removes/reduces progression.
    That is why I say that scaling(vertical) and horizontal progression are fundamentally doing and trying to solve the same thing.

    Progression is about growing and thereby being able to handle more and more content that you previously could not .. if everything is flat and you are "allowed entry" to everything then there is no progression (in that area of the game, which to me IS what carries a mmo). Defining "allowed entry" covers both actual unlocking of areas as well as being able to handle those areas .. both requiring progressing the character you play, it can be through levels, skill based systems (pseudo-level), skill trees, access quests/etc, gear, faction, and much more.
    I mean almost all horizontal systems in known games are to some degree vertical in disguise, that is why they still have some progression left - If a game went with a pure horizontal design, that would mean the removal of progression.
    Post edited by kjempff on
    Steelhelm
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,781
    kjempff said:
    Horizontal progression does not, at it's basic level, have anything for you to scale in such a manner. It's an inherently flat system, and consequently scaling is simply unnecessary unless someone adds some form of vertical progression on top of the horizontal.
    As you also said, obviously it makes no sense to apply scaling to a horizontal concept. That is because horizontal is already scaled by design. You call it "flat" which to me is the same concept as scaling, which when applied also has the purpose of flattening. That scaling may have started as temporary scaling of either characters or mobs, it is now in many games permanent scaling allowing entry for anyone at any progression point .. which means it might as well have been designed as horizontal - Both (mostly) removes/reduces progression.
    That is why I say that scaling(vertical) and horizontal progression are fundamentally doing and trying to solve the same thing.

    Progression is about growing and thereby being able to handle more and more content that you previously could not .. if everything is flat and you are "allowed entry" to everything then there is no progression (in that area of the game, which to me IS what carries a mmo). Defining "allowed entry" covers both actual unlocking of areas as well as being able to handle those areas .. both requiring progressing the character you play, it can be through levels, skill based systems (pseudo-level), skill trees, access quests/etc, gear, faction, and much more.
    You're right except for one thing.
    The term "horizontal" is a little misleading if you leave out the "progression" part of it.
    So as stated before, you do progress and get better.
    And it's against MOBs and content that doesn't change per player levels.

    The whole point of "horizontal progression" is to allow access to all parts of the game, although still with MOBs and places where it's too much for you to whatever degree. You do progress, but big numbers are replaced with fun strategies and tactics, smart ideas and trickery, specialized skills and gear.

    Now, understand, scaling can be done for the exact same effect. A modified scaling of content.
    But why do it? Why add the code? It still comes with some problems when players of different levels meet a scaled MOB. And it costs money and time better spent on the rest of the game.

    Scaling makes it all feel false. Progression becomes meaningless.
    And scaling removes identity. You aren't you anymore, or the MOBs aren't themselves, and there's no Snickers Bars.

    Limnic

    Once upon a time....

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    kjempff said:
    Horizontal progression does not, at it's basic level, have anything for you to scale in such a manner. It's an inherently flat system, and consequently scaling is simply unnecessary unless someone adds some form of vertical progression on top of the horizontal.
    As you also said, obviously it makes no sense to apply scaling to a horizontal concept. That is because horizontal is already scaled by design. You call it "flat" which to me is the same concept as scaling, which when applied also has the purpose of flattening. That scaling may have started as temporary scaling of either characters or mobs, it is now in many games permanent scaling allowing entry for anyone at any progression point .. which means it might as well have been designed as horizontal - Both (mostly) removes/reduces progression.
    That is why I say that scaling(vertical) and horizontal progression are fundamentally doing and trying to solve the same thing.

    Progression is about growing and thereby being able to handle more and more content that you previously could not .. if everything is flat and you are "allowed entry" to everything then there is no progression (in that area of the game, which to me IS what carries a mmo). Defining "allowed entry" covers both actual unlocking of areas as well as being able to handle those areas .. both requiring progressing the character you play, it can be through levels, skill based systems (pseudo-level), skill trees, access quests/etc, gear, faction, and much more.
    I mean almost all horizontal systems in known games are to some degree vertical in disguise, that is why they still have some progression left - If a game went with a pure horizontal design, that would mean the removal of progression.
    Have you played Legend of Zelda.  There are other ways lol.  
    Limnic
  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,088
    I prefer it if its executed well, because it is a lot more immersive and makes the world feel more like an actual world. Scaling done well, is not just about hp. In some games it also means that mobs get better stats and abilities on higher lvl and their attacks become more varied, just like with player levelling.

    I really like how it works in GW2. You scale down if you go to lower lvl places, but you still feel more powerful because of the unlocked abilities and build. Because you might have the same hp as the mobs in the low lvl areas, but you as player have access to a much better build and that is very noticable.

    Still, a group content champion in those low lvl areas can mess you up and this is how it should be. And especially a world boss.

    Scaling is how it should be in a rpg. It is also a better way for devs to keep lower lvl zones worth going back to.
    Static level brackets and stats are ridiculous and something from the past imo. It is a stupid scorched earth development way. Where each expansion will make old content pointless.
    IselinLimnic
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    ESO - for the purpose of this thread - is closer to a "non-scaled" "traditional" game with levels.

    WTF! 

    As @Iselin has said above - multiple times now please read - whilst all mobs have the same "base level" they come in a whole range of difficulties. And - again as @Iselin has said - difficulty also varies with location. So replace mob level by (mob difficulty x mob location). A 2D grid if you like.

    Yes characters get a temporary boost to their "power". Key word temporary. It allows them to kill an easy mob in an easy zone - most of the time. They might still die. And if they take on more challenging (mob difficulty x mob level) mobs right away they may die more frequently. Same deal as if your level 1 fights a level 5 mob - or whatever. 

    And as characters grow they become more powerful and the boost diminishes. Nominally their power doesn't change; in reality they are getting more powerful.

    Until the day comes when they are no longer boosted at all. And they carry on getting more - and more - and more powerful. Remember when ESO launched it had levels. Newsflash: under the hood ESO still has levels - although Zenimax toned the jumps down opting for more frequent smaller jumps in power rather than less frequent bigger jumps. 

    Summary: there are a range of mobs of different levels of difficulty; characters progress but a temporary boost masks the gains initially. Just as it is in a game with "traditional" levels. It is not a "boost mob to level of character game".

    What it doesn't have are big "signposts" saying level 50 this way; now entering a level 80 zone etc. The content is distributed throughout the game.
    Iselin[Deleted User]
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,742
    I was wondering what MMOs used scaled mobs, I can't remember playing one. ESO has been mentioned which must have been after I played, but we also hear that it is not fully using a scaled system?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,373
    edited June 2019
    Scot said:
    I was wondering what MMOs used scaled mobs, I can't remember playing one. ESO has been mentioned which must have been after I played, but we also hear that it is not fully using a scaled system?
    ESO is the poster child of level scaling which was implemented well after launch with the One Tameril expansion.

    It level scales both up and down and all around, but as mentioned its neither perfect or always uniform across the field.

    I suspect it is an extension of the level scaling the game had in PVP at launch, where lower level players were up leveled to max so they could be competitive with others.

    Sounded good in theory, in practice not so much in my personal experience. I've never experienced ESO in its latest incarnation,  so not really sure whether I'd enjoy it, probably not so much I'm thinking.

    GW2 had downward level scaling, meaning if a player went back to a lower level area their character was reduced in level down to that of the NPCs in the zone.

    Other games have used similar mechanics only when players grouped with players higher or lower than themselves, as part of mentoring systems. 

    I believe CoH and perhaps EQ2 had such, I know POE which I'm currently playing does. 
    Scot

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    Scot said:
    I was wondering what MMOs used scaled mobs, I can't remember playing one.
    Most of the old ones, with optional scaling.
    A strict, set-in-stone barrier under which all the players are queezed is for the forced scaling, since it requires the less effort and work.

    By using the games I listed earlier as examples: AoC has only that. It doesn't have character scaling, when you choose to do "scaled content" (be that a villa or an entire zone in hard mode) it always adjust the mobs to you.
    LotRO has both, for instances and skirmishes it scales the mobs and the difficulty to the level you want, but for big battles it scales your character to a set level.
    CO and CoH the most flexible, you could scale both yourself as well as the mobs the way you want - though the mobs only in a narrow range.
    gunklackerScot
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759
    edited June 2019
    The whole point of "horizontal progression" is to allow access to all parts of the game 
    I am going to be sneaky annoying by saying the whole point of progression is that you do not have access to all parts of the game. You progress to get access to more and more parts of the game. 
    The access to all parts of the horizontal definition is non-progression.
    But I will admit that when people refer to horizontal, they also include various systems that re-introduce some progression through not providing access to all parts of the game (gear progression, stats, point systems). All that horizontal does is to remove levels from the power equation, but in order to have progression the power equation needs to exist as other systems.
    My point is that horizontal "progression" somewhat contradict itself in that manner, by both trying to remove progression but at the same time rely on progression models (all except levels) to provide meaningful gameplay.


    Amaranthar said:
    Scaling makes it all feel false. Progression becomes meaningless.
    And scaling removes identity. You aren't you anymore, or the MOBs aren't themselves, and there's no Snickers Bars. 



    That part we can agree on completely, I also hate scaling. And I will also admit that this is the problem that Horizontal solves, it is just that horizontal introduce other problems.
    Scaling on vertical systems on the other hand tries to solves a non-issue. Or to be more clear an issue not directly related to vertical, but more about how mmos use vertical now. Meaning vertical in itself does not have to be a problem if made well.
    For example the division of players through levels, access, or other progression mechanics, is not a problem in my book, and it provide valuable meaningfull-ness? and identity to a game. The problem has arrived with the "endgame" design focus of modern mmorpgs, and the developers focus on retention and other user attention grabbing features and found that one way to optimize this is to not divide players - The problem is that also has severe negative effects. Meaning, that scaling is a "solution" to a problem the developer has created, and not really a problem that vertical has.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    edited June 2019
    AlBQuirky said:
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?
    How many MMORPG and RPG have level systems? A ton. Means it is well documented. It is literally the easiest way to gate and control content flow.  Level scaling is leveling plus another variable so obviously it is more complex.  
    And you "know" it's the easiest way how, again? You a programmer or something?

    Where does the documentation on "lazy" come in?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    kjempff said:
    The whole point of "horizontal progression" is to allow access to all parts of the game 
    I am going to be sneaky annoying by saying the whole point of progression is that you do not have access to all parts of the game. You progress to get access to more and more parts of the game. 
    The access to all parts of the horizontal definition is non-progression.
    But I will admit that when people refer to horizontal, they also include various systems that re-introduce some progression through not providing access to all parts of the game (gear progression, stats, point systems). All that horizontal does is to remove levels from the power equation, but in order to have progression the power equation needs to exist as other systems.
    My point is that horizontal "progression" somewhat contradict itself in that manner, by both trying to remove progression but at the same time rely on progression models (all except levels) to provide meaningful gameplay.


    Amaranthar said:
    Scaling makes it all feel false. Progression becomes meaningless.
    And scaling removes identity. You aren't you anymore, or the MOBs aren't themselves, and there's no Snickers Bars. 



    That part we can agree on completely, I also hate scaling. And I will also admit that this is the problem that Horizontal solves, it is just that horizontal introduce other problems.
    Scaling on vertical systems on the other hand tries to solves a non-issue. Or to be more clear an issue not directly related to vertical, but more about how mmos use vertical now. Meaning vertical in itself does not have to be a problem if made well.
    For example the division of players through levels, access, or other progression mechanics, is not a problem in my book, and it provide valuable meaningfull-ness? and identity to a game. The problem has arrived with the "endgame" design focus of modern mmorpgs, and the developers focus on retention and other user attention grabbing features and found that one way to optimize this is to not divide players - The problem is that also has severe negative effects. Meaning, that scaling is a "solution" to a problem the developer has created, and not really a problem that vertical has.
    Vertical progression in themeparks always had the issue of pushing people through content used and unused as fast as possible.  With slower leveling it was less of an issue because players would be in areas for a while then move on. 

    Players don't want slow leveling.  So you eventually had leveling ramped up.  Now players blow through content quickly.  So they turned more heavily towards gear grinds.  

    Now with leveling scaling you can use content more efficiently.  But as people have said progression feels off.  It was a half measure.  

    My opinion of themeparks it is half a game.  Just like if you had a sandbox MMORPG with no content at all it would be half a game.  Game should be both but that is ambition.  

    Pure themeparks would be better served to be an action adventure instead of a RPG.  This is my opinion just from trying to design one in theory. Take that for what its worth but what I did a lot of in a slow job over a decade, theorycrafting games.

    Instead of focus being on numbers I would focus on mechanics and creative gear.  Having classes actually do unique things vs. reskined power sets that add, delete or multiple numbers.  You know have rogues be able to climb walls. rangers track, priest work in the divine aspects and etc.  

    Gear should provide specific solutions to in game problems that need advancing.  This is the sort of thing you see in games like Legend of Zelda.  You get a grappling hook to access areas previous off limits.  You fire cloak to enter a fire zone.  Mask of the deep to go to under water realm.  
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Scot said:
    I was wondering what MMOs used scaled mobs, I can't remember playing one. ESO has been mentioned which must have been after I played, but we also hear that it is not fully using a scaled system?
    Didn't GW 2 use scaling, though on players, not mobs?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,742
    AlBQuirky said:
    Scot said:
    I was wondering what MMOs used scaled mobs, I can't remember playing one. ESO has been mentioned which must have been after I played, but we also hear that it is not fully using a scaled system?
    Didn't GW 2 use scaling, though on players, not mobs?
    Never played it past a month; did not like the way they handled, well side lined quests and therefore lore. So really can't remember.

    I had not forgotten Lotro skirmish's though, I was only thinking of scaling during levelling in main game. And CoH had the buddy system which allowed you to group and change to the average level in that group, a must in any game without scaling.
    AlBQuirky
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    kjempff said:
    The whole point of "horizontal progression" is to allow access to all parts of the game 
    I am going to be sneaky annoying by saying the whole point of progression is that you do not have access to all parts of the game. You progress to get access to more and more parts of the game. 
    The access to all parts of the horizontal definition is non-progression.
    But I will admit that when people refer to horizontal, they also include various systems that re-introduce some progression through not providing access to all parts of the game (gear progression, stats, point systems). All that horizontal does is to remove levels from the power equation, but in order to have progression the power equation needs to exist as other systems.
    My point is that horizontal "progression" somewhat contradict itself in that manner, by both trying to remove progression but at the same time rely on progression models (all except levels) to provide meaningful gameplay.

    Rather feels the "be sneaky" part was you cutting that statement off before where is said this;

    "although still with MOBs and places where it's too much for you to whatever degree. You do progress, but big numbers are replaced with fun strategies and tactics, smart ideas and trickery, specialized skills and gear."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481815/is-scaling-content-a-good-thing/p6#86u6PW7HjCKS2jSm.99

    It throws a rather large wrench into your argument, in that it shows how horizontal progression still has "gated" elements that you have to evolve your character through unlocking of features, rebalancing of stats, etc within the horizontal progression to eventually surpass.

    When people refer to "horizontal" is a misnomer. That'd be like referring to your claims as supporting "vertical". As there are tons of systems within games focused on vertical progression that do not themselves lend to any form of meaningful progression. As another just mentioned recently in the current WoW level squishing thread, WoW itself has example of this with "empty dings" that exist solely for the sake of expansion content having a number to make bigger.

    This contradiction as result is a problem of your own making.

    Horizontal progression creates a consistent baseline. Horizontal progression at no point mandates that players have to stay affixed to that baseline, only that they can evolve in different ways relative to it. The "power equation" doe not need to exist as other systems.

    Stats can migrate up and down relative to a total cap, keeping things balanced, but allowing for a wide berth of asymmetry and specialization.

    Skills can be unlocked, allowing for a wider range of techniques and solutions to any given challenge.

    Gear can similarly allow for both stat rebalancing and skill options opened to players.

    Even things like access to different types of transportation and how that affects scope of the game world.

    This already allows for a massive scope of player progression and shifts in access to content, without ever extending beyond the inherent scope of a horizontal progression system.

    You have to "be sneaky" and try to redefine the situation in a manner that suits your argument to even try to claim otherwise.
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759
    Limnic said:
    kjempff said:
    The whole point of "horizontal progression" is to allow access to all parts of the game 
    I am going to be sneaky annoying by saying the whole point of progression is that you do not have access to all parts of the game. You progress to get access to more and more parts of the game. 
    The access to all parts of the horizontal definition is non-progression.
    But I will admit that when people refer to horizontal, they also include various systems that re-introduce some progression through not providing access to all parts of the game (gear progression, stats, point systems). All that horizontal does is to remove levels from the power equation, but in order to have progression the power equation needs to exist as other systems.
    My point is that horizontal "progression" somewhat contradict itself in that manner, by both trying to remove progression but at the same time rely on progression models (all except levels) to provide meaningful gameplay.

    Rather feels the "be sneaky" part was you cutting that statement off before where is said this;

    "although still with MOBs and places where it's too much for you to whatever degree. You do progress, but big numbers are replaced with fun strategies and tactics, smart ideas and trickery, specialized skills and gear."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481815/is-scaling-content-a-good-thing/p6#86u6PW7HjCKS2jSm.99

    It throws a rather large wrench into your argument, in that it shows how horizontal progression still has "gated" elements that you have to evolve your character through unlocking of features, rebalancing of stats, etc within the horizontal progression to eventually surpass.

    When people refer to "horizontal" is a misnomer. That'd be like referring to your claims as supporting "vertical". As there are tons of systems within games focused on vertical progression that do not themselves lend to any form of meaningful progression. As another just mentioned recently in the current WoW level squishing thread, WoW itself has example of this with "empty dings" that exist solely for the sake of expansion content having a number to make bigger.

    This contradiction as result is a problem of your own making.

    Horizontal progression creates a consistent baseline. Horizontal progression at no point mandates that players have to stay affixed to that baseline, only that they can evolve in different ways relative to it. The "power equation" doe not need to exist as other systems.

    Stats can migrate up and down relative to a total cap, keeping things balanced, but allowing for a wide berth of asymmetry and specialization.

    Skills can be unlocked, allowing for a wider range of techniques and solutions to any given challenge.

    Gear can similarly allow for both stat rebalancing and skill options opened to players.

    Even things like access to different types of transportation and how that affects scope of the game world.

    This already allows for a massive scope of player progression and shifts in access to content, without ever extending beyond the inherent scope of a horizontal progression system.

    You have to "be sneaky" and try to redefine the situation in a manner that suits your argument to even try to claim otherwise.
    I read it the first time, and you give no new arguments I can relate to otherwise.
    Guess the basic problem is we are not in agreement on what progression means, so it is hard to make any arguments make sense.

    I could say that I disagree that your claim that the "power equation" does not need to exist to have progression, but I fear we speak from such different perspectives, that it is pointless list arguments and examples that it does.

    "big numbers are replaced with fun strategies and tactics, smart ideas and trickery,"  this is not progression. 
    "specialized skills" can be progression if they are unlocked through playing, and make the player able to handle previously unbeatable content. I call it minimal progression and in some cases nonprogression, you call it flat.
    "gear" is progression assuming it adds to "power equation" in some form .. or see above.


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