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Is disposable world content good?

AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,337
We all know the score.
You get a game with 60 levels, and you start in a zone for levels 1-5, then move on to another zone for levels 6-10, etc., etc.

You can only play in 8.33% of the game world at any one time. Practically speaking, at any rate.

Once you reach level 60, you are pretty much stuck doing the same content until the game releases new content for levels 61-65.
And at that point, you are limited to less than 12% of the world to get any practical benefits from.
And with each new addition to game content, your limited to even a smaller percentage.
By level 80, you are limited to 6.25% of the game world.

Is that a good thing?
(Hint, when you run out of levels, you run out of game.)

I've made two prior posts that relate to this in overall game design.
Scaling:
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481815/is-scaling-content-a-good-thing/p1
and After Max Level:
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481646/after-max-level/p1




Once upon a time....

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Comments

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,073
    It varies from game to game. Some games have abundant content at max level. Some do not. You seem to be assuming they are all the same, all the way down to the decimal point (8.33, 6.25). 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 20,336
    edited June 11
    Yes it's good -  but it doesn't have to be "disposable"

    Example - use low level zones for housing and farming/crafting plots like ArcheAge does - that way even at max level low level zones have some use.

    even if they are 100% disposable - it's till infinitely better than scaling systems /shudder
    ScorchienGdemamiAeanderIselin
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,560
    FF11 .... FF14 and UO have handled this best  where no area ever becomes outdated and unused

     FF 11 and 14 with there job system and

      UO , even an experienced 7xGM can be killed in the E Brit woods easily if you are not on your toes , Mostly because of the still limited Hps and stats , you must adapt your Tactics as you grow ..

      I really like both systems ..

     I also add as it was mentioned in similar threads, I really dont like the conning of mobs and Why i enjoy UO and Vanguard when it had the non conning feature ..

       Makes you experiment and test the waters , learn from the combat , not from Knowing its Equal to you
  • learis1learis1 Member UncommonPosts: 91
    edited June 11
    This is the other side of the coin to scaling content. I feel like a compromise might be the best thing. Have different zones have starting and ending scaling levels. But also have certain areas be specifically meant for certain levels. 

    If I had to choose, scaling is the better option. Allows for more playable content rather than one-and-done.

    Mend and Defend

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,492
    edited June 11
    Is that a good thing?  
    It is not, however there isn't really a solution - it is a natural 'side effect' of progression based design.
    MadFrenchieMisterZebubKyleran
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,435
    Gdemami said:
    Is that a good thing?  
    It is not, however there isn't really a solution - it is a natural 'side effect' of progression based design.
    Did you just share your opinion without trying to condescend or insult someone?

    Image result for hell freezing over gif

    KyleranIselin

    image
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 4,054
    No.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,337
    edited June 11
    Gdemami said:
    Is that a good thing?  
    It is not, however there isn't really a solution - it is a natural 'side effect' of progression based design.
    What about "immersion" and feeling like you are playing in a world? Which implies that 90+% of the world is not off limits to you as an adventurer, at any given time.

    Once upon a time....

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,492
    What about "immersion" and feeling like you are playing in a world? Which implies that 90+% of the world is not off limits to you as an adventurer, at any given time.
    ...what about it?

    You are missing the point, lack of re-usable content is only an issue for developers, players do not care.

    In fact, they do prefer not to return to areas they already progressed through.

    It is like asking them to use lvl 5 gear when they are lvl 60.
    parrotpholk
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,337
    Gdemami said:
    What about "immersion" and feeling like you are playing in a world? Which implies that 90+% of the world is not off limits to you as an adventurer, at any given time.
    ...what about it?

    You are missing the point, lack of re-usable content is only an issue for developers, players do not care.

    In fact, they do prefer not to return to areas they already progressed through.

    It is like asking them to use lvl 5 gear when they are lvl 60.
    Why can't they use their earned gear in 90+% of the game world at any given time that they play the game?

    The question here, to define it, is if a game is designed to restrict players to 8.33% or 6% of the game world, is that a good thing?

    Once upon a time....

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    I think it is.  I would never design a pure themepark with vertical progression that has power platforms.  Those premade story games are a solo activities best with saved games, mods and maybe some coop. 
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,492
    Why can't they use their earned gear in 90+% of the game world at any given time that they play the game?

    The question here, to define it, is if a game is designed to restrict players to 8.33% or 6% of the game world, is that a good thing?

    ...you are stuck in a loop with a question that just makes no sense.

    If we are talking about 'traditional mmo', players do demand a progression and you will get 'wasted content' due nature of progression itself. There is no way around that.
    MisterZebub
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member EpicPosts: 3,448
    Gdemami said:
    Is that a good thing?  
    It is not, however there isn't really a solution - it is a natural 'side effect' of progression based design.
    Ah you see, and I know you know this, there is a solution, companies simply stop wasting mountains of resources, time, and money creating persistent content most players will blow through in a matter of hours and never look back unless they have to level an alt. Unfortunately the most effective way to make MMORPGS better, is to stop making them MMORPGS. 
    KyleranScorchien


    “I was, in days gone by, a believer. But, alas, I came to this beleaguered land and the God in me just … evaporated. Let us change our toast, then, to the God that has forgotten us.”

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,678
    edited June 12
    I dunno, CCP found a way with EVE to make every system relevant,  perhaps because they really don't vary all that much throughout the game, not sure really. 

    Only of many reasons I enjoyed EVE more than any others.




    MisterZebub

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    Gdemami said:
    Is that a good thing?  
    It is not, however there isn't really a solution - it is a natural 'side effect' of progression based design.
    Ah you see, and I know you know this, there is a solution, companies simply stop wasting mountains of resources, time, and money creating persistent content most players will blow through in a matter of hours and never look back unless they have to level an alt. Unfortunately the most effective way to make MMORPGS better, is to stop making them MMORPGS. 
    Or you could make them procedural. A genre based around on going content ignored technological to automatically make on going content. Imagine 10 years of MMORPG hivemind development in proecderial content.
    MisterZebubGdemami
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member EpicPosts: 3,448
    Gdemami said:
    Is that a good thing?  
    It is not, however there isn't really a solution - it is a natural 'side effect' of progression based design.
    Ah you see, and I know you know this, there is a solution, companies simply stop wasting mountains of resources, time, and money creating persistent content most players will blow through in a matter of hours and never look back unless they have to level an alt. Unfortunately the most effective way to make MMORPGS better, is to stop making them MMORPGS. 
    Or you could make them procedural. A genre based around on going content ignored technological to automatically make on going content. Imagine 10 years of MMORPG hivemind development in proecderial content.
    Is that in any way financially feasible or technologically viable? I'm not saying it isn't, simply that I have no idea.


    “I was, in days gone by, a believer. But, alas, I came to this beleaguered land and the God in me just … evaporated. Let us change our toast, then, to the God that has forgotten us.”

  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member EpicPosts: 3,448
    Kyleran said:
    I dunno, CCP found a way with EVE to make every system relevant,  perhaps because they really don't vary all that much throughout the game, not sure really. 

    Only of many reasons I enjoyed EVE more than any others.




    Eve is definitely an anomaly. I think its because its built on a unique system that predates what an MMORPG was supposed to be post Wow.
    Gdemami


    “I was, in days gone by, a believer. But, alas, I came to this beleaguered land and the God in me just … evaporated. Let us change our toast, then, to the God that has forgotten us.”

  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,426
    I actually liked when each race had their own city and newb zones as opposed to there being newb islands in games. 
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,615
    As it stands there are a few games that have addressed this issue, with varying degrees of.. lets call it success. 

    The first, many already know about, is called Scaling.

    This normally takes the form of Scaling Down, so, you start in the low level zones, and can move up as you level up, but you can also return to the low level zones and you will scale down to be a fair fight in them, thus as you level up, the game becomes bigger, not smaller.

    This a great system IMHO, especially for more Open World style games, like GW2.

    Another System I have seen in Action. Re-Leveling.

    This is where you basically have 1 character, that you can run through all the classes and what have you, and re-level each time. Since this is not so much an Alt as it is just a mian that keeps getting more and more powerful, each time though, obviously becomes easier, but also can be more tedious.

    There are variants on this theme, but the basic idea remains the same, you are going to do this content several times over.

    This works well for the games that are designed around it.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    Gdemami said:
    Is that a good thing?  
    It is not, however there isn't really a solution - it is a natural 'side effect' of progression based design.
    Ah you see, and I know you know this, there is a solution, companies simply stop wasting mountains of resources, time, and money creating persistent content most players will blow through in a matter of hours and never look back unless they have to level an alt. Unfortunately the most effective way to make MMORPGS better, is to stop making them MMORPGS. 
    Or you could make them procedural. A genre based around on going content ignored technological to automatically make on going content. Imagine 10 years of MMORPG hivemind development in proecderial content.
    Is that in any way financially feasible or technologically viable? I'm not saying it isn't, simply that I have no idea.
    Tech has been there in it's most basic form. Not sure how much cost would be but seems long term it would be cheaper.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,337
    Gdemami said:
    Why can't they use their earned gear in 90+% of the game world at any given time that they play the game?

    The question here, to define it, is if a game is designed to restrict players to 8.33% or 6% of the game world, is that a good thing?

    ...you are stuck in a loop with a question that just makes no sense.

    If we are talking about 'traditional mmo', players do demand a progression and you will get 'wasted content' due nature of progression itself. There is no way around that.
    The question makes perfect sense if there is an alternative.
    And there is an alternative. And that's what my next question is about, after this thread runs it's course.
    Gdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member RarePosts: 5,076
    edited June 12
    I think there is a fallacy here. "Relevancy" is ONLY being looked at in terms of combat. There is MORE to MMOROPGS than combat. Why does this fallacy keep coming up?

    Most starting zones centered around a city. In this city were banks, crafting areas, trainers, and more non-combat activities. Why are they "irrelevant?" Oh, right... combat.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,337
    edited June 12
    AlBQuirky said:
    I think there is a fallacy here. "Relevancy" is ONLY being looked at in terms of combat. There is MORE to MMOROPGS than combat. Why does this fallacy keep coming up?

    Most starting zones centered around a city. In this city were banks, crafting areas, trainers, and more non-combat activities. Why are they "irrelevant?" Oh, right... combat.
    But what good is it? (Remember, we are not talking about games with scaling here.)
    So you now can get platinum coins instead of gold coins. You can buy "better" gear with it, but when you use that gear it's still limited to your level. If it's overpowered for you, most games go as far as to remove that OP until you level up.

    Crafting, as above.
    Trainers, same thing.

    You increasing the numbers, getting some new animations, some new art. Nothing else changes.
    Oh, sure, you can go to old level zones and be more powerful, but what does that get you?
    You are still PRACTICALLY SPEAKING locked into 8% (or less) of the game world. You are still corralled. You are still not part of the world, only that set of boundaries restricted to you at any given point and time in your experience in that game.
    Gdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member RarePosts: 5,076
    edited June 13
    AlBQuirky said:
    I think there is a fallacy here. "Relevancy" is ONLY being looked at in terms of combat. There is MORE to MMOROPGS than combat. Why does this fallacy keep coming up?

    Most starting zones centered around a city. In this city were banks, crafting areas, trainers, and more non-combat activities. Why are they "irrelevant?" Oh, right... combat.
    But what good is it? (Remember, we are not talking about games with scaling here.)
    So you now can get platinum coins instead of gold coins. You can buy "better" gear with it, but when you use that gear it's still limited to your level. If it's overpowered for you, most games go as far as to remove that OP until you level up.

    Crafting, as above.
    Trainers, same thing.

    You increasing the numbers, getting some new animations, some new art. Nothing else changes.
    Oh, sure, you can go to old level zones and be more powerful, but what does that get you?
    You are still PRACTICALLY SPEAKING locked into 8% (or less) of the game world. You are still corralled. You are still not part of the world, only that set of boundaries restricted to you at any given point and time in your experience in that game.
    I'm unsure how to respond. Your first paragraph confuses me, so the next two lines do, also. What are you saying about platinum instead gold, bigger numbers, better gear? What does that have to do with anything I mentioned?

    At max level, 99.999% of the game is open to the player, depending on zone "keys" or some other such barrier if in place.

    For "combat only" folks, in EQ you could go to lower level zones and kill monsters that were above the zone level like Sand Giants in Ro, Griffons in the Commanlands, Cyclopses (Cyclopsi?) in Karana and such. You could even act like a hero and sit in lower zones waiting for that "HELP!" to come across in chat.

    Are there level restrictions on interacting with others in a non-combat way?

    Looking at the big picture, not just the microcosm of ONE player, ALL zones are relevant to someone.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,820
    Gdemami said:
    Is that a good thing?  
    It is not, however there isn't really a solution - it is a natural 'side effect' of progression based design.

    Oh so scaling in GW2 making old content always relevant, like when people would do champ trains in the human newbie area doesn't exist.

    ESO entire world scaling making the content relevant all the time.

    City of Heroes sidekicking and exemplaring making most of the content accessible regardless of level.

    Ultima Online with it's 100hp max and the entire world being open in 1997 where you could go anywhere.

    EVE Online free to fly anywhere.

    I mean have you never heard of open world games with no level restriction to zones?

    Have you never heard of scaling?

    No solutions,

    L O L

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



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