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Is Scaling content a good thing?

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    TorvalLimnicJean-Luc_Picardgervaise1
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • WedlenWedlen Member UncommonPosts: 93
    By them scaling enemies to your level they really get rid of alot of the accomplishment of leveling in the first place. I want to obliterate enemies in lower levels (with no xp or loot reward obviously)and have a hard time in higher levels. They do that so they dont have to make the worlds as big. I want them to make far bigger open worlds like Lord of the Rings Online did. Absolutely massive open world. 400 times larger than WoWs world. 2000 times larger than Skyrim. I jsut love massive worlds and knowing that there is just so much to explore. But not dead spaceless worlds either
    Steelhelm
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    edited June 12
    Iselin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    For those who enjoy scaling, is there a way to "test" your character, take on tougher mobs than you without hanging onto a higher level character in some fashion?
    Continuing with my theme of using ESO as an example just because it's the only level scaling MMORPG I have a lot of experience with, a mob's level has never been the only factor that determines the challenge.

    Even before you start getting into "elites", mini-bosses, bosses differentiation they have a range of mob difficulties ranging from trivial swarmers like skeevers and wolves, regular ones like bears and bandits, tougher ones like common Daedra and tougher yet again with special daedra, trolls, giants and mammoth... then come the different mini boss and boss ranks with some world bosses for example being much tougher than others - typically several moderate difficulty ones per zone that a well built, competent player can solo even though they are technically a group activity with one or two per zone that are bad mofos that only the best players can solo.

    Then there's difficulty based by location: the regular overland locations are the easiest, then comes delves where the same mob types tend to be a bit harder, then comes the dark anchor event mobs then the "public dungeons" that are tough delves with bigger packs and tougher mini-bosses - those are really meant for casual, drop-in grouping since they work like non-instanced dungeons like those in the early MMORPG games... they can be done solo too by above average players.

    After that you get into group instances with their own difficulty range from very easy to very tough (specially the newer DLC dungeons) and then the solo raid, Maelstrom Arena and finally full raids with their own range of difficulties as well.

    All of that is done with all mobs being the same exact level: level 50 / CP160 equivalent and all of them represent a different challenge for the noob level 10 guy with little choice about which abilities and passives they have to work with and the geared to the teeth vet players with 100s of CP points and all abilities they care to have unlocked.

    So despite the scaling your progression will eventually trivialize a lot of the content although not to the same extent that it's trivialized in non-scaled games when you go to a zone where everything cons white or gray to you.

    What you don't get in scaled games is the red con rats (or rat like thing with a new scaaaaryyyy skin to let you know they're not the same rats from level 1 but their mutant cousins with super powers) that will eat you alive. :smile:

    I mean lets get real here guys, if you want to look behind the curtain and strip games down to their mechanics essentials don't just do it for the scaled games you don't like - do it for all of them. Because all of them always have you fighting the same thing at any level be they scaled or not. Sure their 3D texture may change to make the level 162 thing look different than their level 1 cousin but it's the same bloody fight lol.

    And when they aren't the same fight it's because they have added new AI mechanics to the mob that you're not so familiar with - something that can be done with mobs of the same exact level (as ESO does) or reserved for higher level mobs in games that cling to the traditional "Dings matter!" formula.
    I think I get what you're saying. It sounds interesting with a lot of coding going on behind the scenes. It's tough to compare ESO with a non-scaling game like I enjoy, though. Zones sound leveless, there is no "con-ing" mobs, and it sounds like there is no place that has the players praying they get through an area as in a non-scaled game.

    Did you answer my question? Can you "test" your character in this scaling MMO? I know you said there are no red cons, so where do you go to find a nigh impossible fight because you have a great idea you want to try out? Which of these difficulties give you the toughest fight, and are there examples of getting your behind handed to you anywhere in the ESO world?

    Also, my brain is not grasping the idea/reality/immersion that one monster "changes" according to the player it faces. What happens if 2 or more players of varying power engage it?

    I see more immersion in a tougher "Giant Rat" fight over a simple "Tiny Rat" fight than the exact same rat giving me the exact same difficulty as I level throughout the game. I'm sure other's opinions vary :)

    PS: I played EQ for 38 levels. I stopped seeing challenging "rats" in my mid teens. To me, your rat example sounds more of an asset problem, not a design one.

    Also, I'm not bashing nor nay-saying scaling. Because I don't know it well, I'm trying to understand its appeal :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    edited June 12
    Torval said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    For those who enjoy scaling, is there a way to "test" your character, take on tougher mobs than you without hanging onto a higher level character in some fashion?
    Sure there is a way to test your character because there is progression and tougher mobs. Traditional level scaling exists so people can trivialize challenge. The idea that MMO gamers like challenge is a lie. They like the illusion of challenges that they always win.

    It's not that I hate levels as an idea, it's just that it feels so outdated and clunky now. Mob conning seems so ridiculous to me now that it makes the game play feel comical. It's like being invited to a deep strategy game and the host opens up Chutes and Ladders. :lol:
    Now I'm confused, which shouldn't surprise anyone ;)

    Does the game you're thinking about have scaling or does only the player progress? You said there is progression and tougher mobs, but if that game uses "scaling", are those new mobs actually tougher than the player?

    And to be clear, I'm not advocating "character levels" as a whole, but rather "progression" not hindered by scaling everything to meet that character's skills. I want a game where I see a low skilled player in trouble and ask if they need help as I run by. Is that possible in scaling MMOS?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    jusomdude said:
    Yes, it's the main reason I love Elder Scrolls... I love being able to go to any zone while having relevant [COMBAT] content there.
    Fixed that for you ;)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    edited June 12
    AlBQuirky said:
    Iselin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    For those who enjoy scaling, is there a way to "test" your character, take on tougher mobs than you without hanging onto a higher level character in some fashion?
    Continuing with my theme of using ESO as an example just because it's the only level scaling MMORPG I have a lot of experience with, a mob's level has never been the only factor that determines the challenge.

    Even before you start getting into "elites", mini-bosses, bosses differentiation they have a range of mob difficulties ranging from trivial swarmers like skeevers and wolves, regular ones like bears and bandits, tougher ones like common Daedra and tougher yet again with special daedra, trolls, giants and mammoth... then come the different mini boss and boss ranks with some world bosses for example being much tougher than others - typically several moderate difficulty ones per zone that a well built, competent player can solo even though they are technically a group activity with one or two per zone that are bad mofos that only the best players can solo.

    Then there's difficulty based by location: the regular overland locations are the easiest, then comes delves where the same mob types tend to be a bit harder, then comes the dark anchor event mobs then the "public dungeons" that are tough delves with bigger packs and tougher mini-bosses - those are really meant for casual, drop-in grouping since they work like non-instanced dungeons like those in the early MMORPG games... they can be done solo too by above average players.

    After that you get into group instances with their own difficulty range from very easy to very tough (specially the newer DLC dungeons) and then the solo raid, Maelstrom Arena and finally full raids with their own range of difficulties as well.

    All of that is done with all mobs being the same exact level: level 50 / CP160 equivalent and all of them represent a different challenge for the noob level 10 guy with little choice about which abilities and passives they have to work with and the geared to the teeth vet players with 100s of CP points and all abilities they care to have unlocked.

    So despite the scaling your progression will eventually trivialize a lot of the content although not to the same extent that it's trivialized in non-scaled games when you go to a zone where everything cons white or gray to you.

    What you don't get in scaled games is the red con rats (or rat like thing with a new scaaaaryyyy skin to let you know they're not the same rats from level 1 but their mutant cousins with super powers) that will eat you alive. :smile:

    I mean lets get real here guys, if you want to look behind the curtain and strip games down to their mechanics essentials don't just do it for the scaled games you don't like - do it for all of them. Because all of them always have you fighting the same thing at any level be they scaled or not. Sure their 3D texture may change to make the level 162 thing look different than their level 1 cousin but it's the same bloody fight lol.

    And when they aren't the same fight it's because they have added new AI mechanics to the mob that you're not so familiar with - something that can be done with mobs of the same exact level (as ESO does) or reserved for higher level mobs in games that cling to the traditional "Dings matter!" formula.
    I think I get what you're saying. It sounds interesting with a lot of coding going on behind the scenes. It's tough to compare ESO with a non-scaling game like I enjoy, though. Zones sound leveless, there is no "con-ing" mobs, and it sounds like there is no place that has the players praying they get through an area as in a non-scaled game.

    Did you answer my question? Can you "test" your character in this scaling MMO? I know you said there are no red cons, so where do you go to find a nigh impossible fight because you have a great idea you want to try out? Which of these difficulties give you the toughest fight, and are there examples of getting your behind handed to you anywhere in the ESO world?

    Also, my brain is not grasping the idea/reality/immersion that one monster "changes" according to the player it faces. What happens if 2 or more players of varying power engage it?

    I see more immersion in a tougher "Giant Rat" fight over a simple "Tiny Rat" fight than the exact same rat giving me the exact same difficulty as I level throughout the game. I'm sure other's opinions vary :)

    PS: I played EQ for 38 levels. I stopped seeing challenging "rats" in my mid teens. To me, your rat example sounds more of an asset problem, not a design one.

    Also, I'm not bashing nor nay-saying scaling. Because I don't know it well, I'm trying to understand and its appeal :)
    For a challenge, depending on how many abilities you have unlocked and how many champion points you have, if you're soloing you can just go up a couple of difficulty tiers (like just go fight some giants if you're a low level player with only a few things unlocked) all the way up to running the solo raid, Maelstrom Arena, in the higher difficulty level (called veteran in ESO) or even try to solo a world boss or instanced content that is meant for a group.

    If you want to play in a group there is a whole range of group instances all the way from the easiest normal difficulty dungeons to veteran difficulty raids.

    For new players the difficulty can be found anywhere because even though you are scaled up to the mob's level if you're below it that is only part of the story of how power works in ESO and not even the most important part.

    The key of why scaling suits ESO well and can be horrible in some other games is that ESO has multiple skill lines with important active and passive ability unlocks that level independent of your character's level. Some of those skill lines are leveled by using skills from those lines (weapons & class abilities mostly) and some are leveled by participating in a type of activity (PvP, group dungeons, etc.) or even exploration (Mage's skill line for example.) And as you would expect, the best and most powerful abilities unlock much later than the trivial ones.

    It has always had this parallel advancement system since release - it isn't something they did for level scaling. Your character's level has always been a minor part of the progression so it was really trivial for them to do level scaling because the true progression system is still very much there.

    So sure everyone in ESO gets scaled up to the mob's level (and all mobs everywhere are the same level - level 50 / CP160 equivalent - but players are anything but equal in their ability to handle any kind of content because the true power comes from things other than character level... and you still need to level those.

    I honestly have no idea how it could work while still retaining a robust sense of progression in games where everything is tied to your character's level. 
    gervaise1
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    edited June 12
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    "Easy mode?" Never running into a monster that can one-shot is easy mode? I loved trying to get my enchanters in EQ1 to High Pass Hold for their level 16 spell, only in that place's library. It was a hairy run around monsters that outleveled me. In City of Heroes, I enjoyed tryintg to take purple con enemies trying out my new powers, sometimes.

    Why do "pro scaling" enthusiasts always take the worst possible negative scenario, like your "EZ Mode" and Iselin's awful "rat example", which is an asset problem, not a leveling problem, as examples to make a point?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    edited June 12
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
    Those two are not trials - they are vet 4-man dungeons which, as I said above, come in a whole range of difficulties from the trivial FG1, BC1 and Spindleclutch 1 all the way up to the DLC dungeons that are much harder.

    But yeah it was a trick because I picked 2 bosses from 2 dungeons that are extremely difficult to do without a healer - and not just any healer, a great one like me :)
    gervaise1
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited June 12
    Iselin said:nu 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
    Those two are not trials - they are vet 4-man dungeons which, as I said above, come in a whole range of difficulties from the trivial FG1, BC1 and Spindleclutch 1 all the way up to the DLC dungeons that are much harder.

    But yeah it was a trick because I picked 2 bosses from 2 dungeons that are extremely difficult to do without a healer - and not just any healer, a great one like me :)
    Nit picking for no reason , like I said 90% of the game is easy spam mode ... We can back forth about which 3% of end game is more difficult , but that does not change the fact that 90% of the game has 0 tactics needed and is spam mode , a player should not have to get to that that point of end game in any game to find challenge, that is the point and holds true with ESO
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:nu 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
    Those two are not trials - they are vet 4-man dungeons which, as I said above, come in a whole range of difficulties from the trivial FG1, BC1 and Spindleclutch 1 all the way up to the DLC dungeons that are much harder.

    But yeah it was a trick because I picked 2 bosses from 2 dungeons that are extremely difficult to do without a healer - and not just any healer, a great one like me :)
    Nit picking for no reason , like I said 90% of the game is easy spam mode ... We can back forth about which 3% of end game is more difficult , but that does not change the fact that 90% of the game has 0 tactics needed and is spam mode , a player should not have to get to that that point of end game in any game to find challenge, that is the point and holds true with ESO
    So why do I see people dying around me all the time in content that's easy for me?

    It's probably the same reason why I can do GR100 and easily farm T16 content in D3 within the first 3 weeks of a season and yet I see new posts in the D3 reddit constantly from people asking for help because they can't do GR20 or get slaughtered in anything higher than T4.

    I know I'm better at ESO than most simply because I've been playing it for 5 years, I know how to animation cancel (lol) and have a shit ton of CP. But I'm not elitist and dismissive of its difficulty when I know for a fact that many struggle with the basics.

    And like I said, this has fuck all to do with level scaling... speaking of random internet noise.


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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited June 12
    Iselin said:nu
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:nu 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:h 
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
    Cool story. If that were even remotely normal why do players putting together groups to run the daily vet dungeons through chat always want 600+ CP players?

    Back when the Viper set was still a thing I used to solo farm vet FG1 for the drops... but that's FG1. Try 4 CP100 DPS in CoA2 or Darkshade 2 vet and let me know how you do. Better yet do a video and show us. The Fire Maw and Engine Guardian's green phase in particular should be fun to watch with no healer.
    I did specify non vet runs , really a huge waste of internet space.. We all know that vet trials require more coordination and specialization, that was pointed out,  that Vet trials are different
    Those two are not trials - they are vet 4-man dungeons which, as I said above, come in a whole range of difficulties from the trivial FG1, BC1 and Spindleclutch 1 all the way up to the DLC dungeons that are much harder.

    But yeah it was a trick because I picked 2 bosses from 2 dungeons that are extremely difficult to do without a healer - and not just any healer, a great one like me :)
    Nit picking for no reason , like I said 90% of the game is easy spam mode ... We can back forth about which 3% of end game is more difficult , but that does not change the fact that 90% of the game has 0 tactics needed and is spam mode , a player should not have to get to that that point of end game in any game to find challenge, that is the point and holds true with ESO
    So why do I see people dying around me all the time in content that's easy for me?

    It's probably the same reason why I can do GR100 and easily farm T16 content in D3 within the first 3 weeks of a season and yet I see new posts in the D3 reddit constantly from people asking for help because they can't do GR20 or get slaughtered in anything higher than T4.

    I know I'm better at ESO than most simply because I've been playing it for 5 years, I know how to animation cancel (lol) and have a shit ton of CP. But I'm not elitist and dismissive of its difficulty when I know for a fact that many struggle with the basics.

    And like I said, this has fuck all to do with level scaling... speaking of random internet noise.


    It has everything to do with scaling,and as you see from. This thread other people express similar concerns , now everyone has different expectations of challenge in gameplay( some higher than others) thruout the game not just at the end game  , which you made a fine example of again with D3 , there is  no challenge there either till T7 about , the majority of D3 is also ez mode spam fest.. till endgame... same as  ESO , thx for reinforcing that point with another example
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    AlBQuirky said:
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?
    How many MMORPG and RPG have level systems? A ton. Means it is well documented. It is literally the easiest way to gate and control content flow.  Level scaling is leveling plus another variable so obviously it is more complex.  
    Amaranthar
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,635
    edited June 12
    AlBQuirky said:
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?
    How many MMORPG and RPG have level systems? A ton. Means it is well documented. It is literally the easiest way to gate and control content flow.  Level scaling is leveling plus another variable so obviously it is more complex.  
    But scaling is not a vertical progression thing. In fact scaling is completely merged into the core of horizontal progression, which not only makes it impossible to remove from a horizontal progression concept, but scaling is a defining problem with horizontal progression.

    As you might sense, I do not think horizontal progression is a solution to anything, as it brings as many problems as it theoretically solve. I know you won't agree as you are pushing horizontal agenda with most of your posts. I am sure we agree on defining a lot of problems, just not on the conclusion that horizontal "progression" solves anything :D
    My opinion is that horizontal is the removal of progression, which is conceptually the same as vertical progression with scaling, and therefore have the same innate problems.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    kjempff said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?
    How many MMORPG and RPG have level systems? A ton. Means it is well documented. It is literally the easiest way to gate and control content flow.  Level scaling is leveling plus another variable so obviously it is more complex.  
    But scaling is not a vertical progression thing. In fact scaling is completely merged into the core of horizontal progression, which not only makes it impossible to remove from a horizontal progression concept, but scaling is a defining problem with horizontal progression.

    As you might sense, I do not think horizontal progression is a solution to anything, as it brings as many problems as it theoretically solve. I know you won't agree as you are pushing horizontal agenda with most of your posts. I am sure we agree on defining a lot of problems, just not on the conclusion that horizontal "progression" solves anything :D
    My opinion is that horizontal is the removal of progression, which is conceptually the same as vertical progression with scaling, and therefore have the same innate problems.
    This is a confusing argument.

    Scaling is a vertical progression thing. It has to do with players and/or the environment being matched up or down to the other side.

    Horizontal progression does not, at it's basic level, have anything for you to scale in such a manner. It's an inherently flat system, and consequently scaling is simply unnecessary unless someone adds some form of vertical progression on top of the horizontal.

    Would be curious as to why you believe horizontal progression removes progression, as I know I gave an example prior in this thread that still has the notion of unlocking new skills and pushing your stats from being flat into having clearly defined/specialized roles.

    That itself is progression. Numbers just getting universally bigger does not make progression itself meaningful, especially so if things are level-scaled any ways by each new area and relevant content simply being upped in level to compare as it the case in traditional vertical progression environments any ways.
    Amaranthargervaise1Steelhelm
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    Wedlen said:
    I want them to make far bigger open worlds like Lord of the Rings Online did. Absolutely massive open world. 400 times larger than WoWs world. 2000 times larger than Skyrim. I jsut love massive worlds and knowing that there is just so much to explore. But not dead spaceless worlds either
    Wrong. WoW is bigger than LOTRO.
    That was a marketing speech from Turbine.
    Scot
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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    kjempff said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    Any actual developers want to chime in on this statement? Or maybe show me these "documents" you've seen that I have not?

    To be truthful, I really don't care, but you sure like ass-u-me a lot, don't you?
    How many MMORPG and RPG have level systems? A ton. Means it is well documented. It is literally the easiest way to gate and control content flow.  Level scaling is leveling plus another variable so obviously it is more complex.  
    But scaling is not a vertical progression thing. In fact scaling is completely merged into the core of horizontal progression, which not only makes it impossible to remove from a horizontal progression concept, but scaling is a defining problem with horizontal progression.

    As you might sense, I do not think horizontal progression is a solution to anything, as it brings as many problems as it theoretically solve. I know you won't agree as you are pushing horizontal agenda with most of your posts. I am sure we agree on defining a lot of problems, just not on the conclusion that horizontal "progression" solves anything :D
    My opinion is that horizontal is the removal of progression, which is conceptually the same as vertical progression with scaling, and therefore have the same innate problems.
    Most horizontal progression is vertical progression.  It is just way flatter.  Things should be baseline.  Like you get fireball that does AE when all you had was the initial fire strike that did less damage and single target.  You don't get 10 million HP because you are tank. 

    No, horizontal progression doesn't create problems.  There are can be design choices that can be troublesome for horizontal progression.  Like if you do not create challenging NPCs you will not have a challenge.  

    Horizontal game a rat is weak and will give you a small challenge as a newbie.  You get stronger and can likely one shot it.. A demon will crush you as a newbie.  As a vet you can win with difficulty.

    Typcial vertical progression a rat is weak level 1 and gives you standard challenge of an equal level character.  You level up now you can one shot it.  You die to a demon until you are close to equal level.  Being the same level as thr demon is as challenging as a rat thr same level. 2 expansions later a rat 10 levels higher than you can kill you and the demon in an single AoE swipe.  You can now one shot the demon.  


  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,635
    edited June 12
    Horizontal progression does not, at it's basic level, have anything for you to scale in such a manner. It's an inherently flat system, and consequently scaling is simply unnecessary unless someone adds some form of vertical progression on top of the horizontal.
    As you also said, obviously it makes no sense to apply scaling to a horizontal concept. That is because horizontal is already scaled by design. You call it "flat" which to me is the same concept as scaling, which when applied also has the purpose of flattening. That scaling may have started as temporary scaling of either characters or mobs, it is now in many games permanent scaling allowing entry for anyone at any progression point .. which means it might as well have been designed as horizontal - Both (mostly) removes/reduces progression.
    That is why I say that scaling(vertical) and horizontal progression are fundamentally doing and trying to solve the same thing.

    Progression is about growing and thereby being able to handle more and more content that you previously could not .. if everything is flat and you are "allowed entry" to everything then there is no progression (in that area of the game, which to me IS what carries a mmo). Defining "allowed entry" covers both actual unlocking of areas as well as being able to handle those areas .. both requiring progressing the character you play, it can be through levels, skill based systems (pseudo-level), skill trees, access quests/etc, gear, faction, and much more.
    I mean almost all horizontal systems in known games are to some degree vertical in disguise, that is why they still have some progression left - If a game went with a pure horizontal design, that would mean the removal of progression.
    Post edited by kjempff on
    Steelhelm
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,567
    kjempff said:
    Horizontal progression does not, at it's basic level, have anything for you to scale in such a manner. It's an inherently flat system, and consequently scaling is simply unnecessary unless someone adds some form of vertical progression on top of the horizontal.
    As you also said, obviously it makes no sense to apply scaling to a horizontal concept. That is because horizontal is already scaled by design. You call it "flat" which to me is the same concept as scaling, which when applied also has the purpose of flattening. That scaling may have started as temporary scaling of either characters or mobs, it is now in many games permanent scaling allowing entry for anyone at any progression point .. which means it might as well have been designed as horizontal - Both (mostly) removes/reduces progression.
    That is why I say that scaling(vertical) and horizontal progression are fundamentally doing and trying to solve the same thing.

    Progression is about growing and thereby being able to handle more and more content that you previously could not .. if everything is flat and you are "allowed entry" to everything then there is no progression (in that area of the game, which to me IS what carries a mmo). Defining "allowed entry" covers both actual unlocking of areas as well as being able to handle those areas .. both requiring progressing the character you play, it can be through levels, skill based systems (pseudo-level), skill trees, access quests/etc, gear, faction, and much more.
    You're right except for one thing.
    The term "horizontal" is a little misleading if you leave out the "progression" part of it.
    So as stated before, you do progress and get better.
    And it's against MOBs and content that doesn't change per player levels.

    The whole point of "horizontal progression" is to allow access to all parts of the game, although still with MOBs and places where it's too much for you to whatever degree. You do progress, but big numbers are replaced with fun strategies and tactics, smart ideas and trickery, specialized skills and gear.

    Now, understand, scaling can be done for the exact same effect. A modified scaling of content.
    But why do it? Why add the code? It still comes with some problems when players of different levels meet a scaled MOB. And it costs money and time better spent on the rest of the game.

    Scaling makes it all feel false. Progression becomes meaningless.
    And scaling removes identity. You aren't you anymore, or the MOBs aren't themselves, and there's no Snickers Bars.

    Limnic

    Once upon a time....

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    kjempff said:
    Horizontal progression does not, at it's basic level, have anything for you to scale in such a manner. It's an inherently flat system, and consequently scaling is simply unnecessary unless someone adds some form of vertical progression on top of the horizontal.
    As you also said, obviously it makes no sense to apply scaling to a horizontal concept. That is because horizontal is already scaled by design. You call it "flat" which to me is the same concept as scaling, which when applied also has the purpose of flattening. That scaling may have started as temporary scaling of either characters or mobs, it is now in many games permanent scaling allowing entry for anyone at any progression point .. which means it might as well have been designed as horizontal - Both (mostly) removes/reduces progression.
    That is why I say that scaling(vertical) and horizontal progression are fundamentally doing and trying to solve the same thing.

    Progression is about growing and thereby being able to handle more and more content that you previously could not .. if everything is flat and you are "allowed entry" to everything then there is no progression (in that area of the game, which to me IS what carries a mmo). Defining "allowed entry" covers both actual unlocking of areas as well as being able to handle those areas .. both requiring progressing the character you play, it can be through levels, skill based systems (pseudo-level), skill trees, access quests/etc, gear, faction, and much more.
    I mean almost all horizontal systems in known games are to some degree vertical in disguise, that is why they still have some progression left - If a game went with a pure horizontal design, that would mean the removal of progression.
    Have you played Legend of Zelda.  There are other ways lol.  
    Limnic
  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,042
    I prefer it if its executed well, because it is a lot more immersive and makes the world feel more like an actual world. Scaling done well, is not just about hp. In some games it also means that mobs get better stats and abilities on higher lvl and their attacks become more varied, just like with player levelling.

    I really like how it works in GW2. You scale down if you go to lower lvl places, but you still feel more powerful because of the unlocked abilities and build. Because you might have the same hp as the mobs in the low lvl areas, but you as player have access to a much better build and that is very noticable.

    Still, a group content champion in those low lvl areas can mess you up and this is how it should be. And especially a world boss.

    Scaling is how it should be in a rpg. It is also a better way for devs to keep lower lvl zones worth going back to.
    Static level brackets and stats are ridiculous and something from the past imo. It is a stupid scorched earth development way. Where each expansion will make old content pointless.
    IselinLimnic
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,459
    ESO - for the purpose of this thread - is closer to a "non-scaled" "traditional" game with levels.

    WTF! 

    As @Iselin has said above - multiple times now please read - whilst all mobs have the same "base level" they come in a whole range of difficulties. And - again as @Iselin has said - difficulty also varies with location. So replace mob level by (mob difficulty x mob location). A 2D grid if you like.

    Yes characters get a temporary boost to their "power". Key word temporary. It allows them to kill an easy mob in an easy zone - most of the time. They might still die. And if they take on more challenging (mob difficulty x mob level) mobs right away they may die more frequently. Same deal as if your level 1 fights a level 5 mob - or whatever. 

    And as characters grow they become more powerful and the boost diminishes. Nominally their power doesn't change; in reality they are getting more powerful.

    Until the day comes when they are no longer boosted at all. And they carry on getting more - and more - and more powerful. Remember when ESO launched it had levels. Newsflash: under the hood ESO still has levels - although Zenimax toned the jumps down opting for more frequent smaller jumps in power rather than less frequent bigger jumps. 

    Summary: there are a range of mobs of different levels of difficulty; characters progress but a temporary boost masks the gains initially. Just as it is in a game with "traditional" levels. It is not a "boost mob to level of character game".

    What it doesn't have are big "signposts" saying level 50 this way; now entering a level 80 zone etc. The content is distributed throughout the game.
    IselinTorval
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,203
    I was wondering what MMOs used scaled mobs, I can't remember playing one. ESO has been mentioned which must have been after I played, but we also hear that it is not fully using a scaled system?

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,526
    edited June 13
    Scot said:
    I was wondering what MMOs used scaled mobs, I can't remember playing one. ESO has been mentioned which must have been after I played, but we also hear that it is not fully using a scaled system?
    ESO is the poster child of level scaling which was implemented well after launch with the One Tameril expansion.

    It level scales both up and down and all around, but as mentioned its neither perfect or always uniform across the field.

    I suspect it is an extension of the level scaling the game had in PVP at launch, where lower level players were up leveled to max so they could be competitive with others.

    Sounded good in theory, in practice not so much in my personal experience. I've never experienced ESO in its latest incarnation,  so not really sure whether I'd enjoy it, probably not so much I'm thinking.

    GW2 had downward level scaling, meaning if a player went back to a lower level area their character was reduced in level down to that of the NPCs in the zone.

    Other games have used similar mechanics only when players grouped with players higher or lower than themselves, as part of mentoring systems. 

    I believe CoH and perhaps EQ2 had such, I know POE which I'm currently playing does. 
    Scot

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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