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Is Scaling content a good thing?

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,505
    edited June 11
    For those who enjoy scaling, is there a way to "test" your character, take on tougher mobs than you without hanging onto a higher level character in some fashion?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,513
    edited June 11
    AlBQuirky said:
    For those who enjoy scaling, is there a way to "test" your character, take on tougher mobs than you without hanging onto a higher level character in some fashion?
    I suppose that a PARTIAL Scaling system could be used (maybe it is in some games), where you see a little advancement as you advance in the extreme.
    That's finagling the numbers though.

    My whole point is, why bother?
    All the game is doing is giving the players an artificially inflated set of unused higher numbers.
    And not even with any consistency, at that.

    It all goes back to the identity of the character.
    Remember the song "Who Are You?" ("who who, who who") lol




    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 726
    Scorchien said:
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    But the problem IMO with ESO and GW2 is all those fights play out and feel exactly the same reagrdless of lvl or CP , every fight wether a rat or elite King Guard , feels and plays out the same .. over and over to nauseum ..

        And it should not feel that way , you know the difference in EQ for example from fighting a Rat from an Elite Gnoll Guard even early on , it feels the different the Guard presents a much more difficult fight and challenges , In ESO that Rat and Elite  Guard feel exactly the same .
    I think @Scorchien better describes why I dislike scaling in games like ESO and GW2. I never got to 50+ (CP levels) in ESO simply because I didn't find the pre-50 combat enjoyable; and to my knowledge, nothing about the combat gameplay changes post-50 AFAIK -- you're still relegated to the same handful of skills/combos as you were at Lv 10.

    In games like ESO and GW2, the only real "progression" I felt was getting the skills I wanted onto my limited hotbar -- Then, "progression" stopped and I was simply relegated to htiting the exact same combo for every fight. If at Lv 5 I'm hitting for 10 damage on an enemy that takes 5 hits to kill, and at Lv 10 I'm hitting the same enemy for 100 damage and it still takes the same 5 hits to kill it I don't feel as if my character is progressing.

    Thats for me -- personally. However, I know many people prefer level scaling so they don't feel pressured to continue on to "challenging" content; however, I find it artificial and limiting to my personal experience and enjoyment of the games.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    AlBQuirky said:
    I dislike the mechanic because I feel like.......what did I just spend all that time leveling for?
    And the developers are like what I just spend all that time making content for as you spend the remainder of your game in 1% of the game.
    Why would players go back to a zone they "defeated" at such a higher level? How is the content being used more often?

    "I wanna go kill some wolves for pelts. I know, I'll go back to that starter zone and get them!" (instead of hunting wolves that drop your pelts in an area that meets your level anyway, or going to that starter zone and "tasking" lower level players to gather the pelts for you for in game money...)

    I'm trying to figure out "why" you (and others) think this content will "forever be relevant" as to keep higher level players coming back. If you say it's to help noobies out, there are better (opinion) mechanics to do this, like the aforementioned mentor/sidekick in CoX. What exactly keeps the old zones relevant and populated?

    Or is this another push to do away with progression (not just character levels)?
    Why funnel players to small areas?  Why can't you have to revisit areas that change with new content?  

    Why do you need to go back go areas to feel powerful?  Wht why why why why? It is all preference at a certain point.  

    If I have content on repeat at max level I rather have the whole world, all dungeons and etc be relevant than do a few dailies or deal with raids.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    Scorchien said:
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    But the problem IMO with ESO and GW2 is all those fights play out and feel exactly the same reagrdless of lvl or CP , every fight wether a rat or elite King Guard , feels and plays out the same .. over and over to nauseum ..

        And it should not feel that way , you know the difference in EQ for example from fighting a Rat from an Elite Gnoll Guard even early on , it feels the different the Guard presents a much more difficult fight and challenges , In ESO that Rat and Elite  Guard feel exactly the same .
    That is a challenge issue not a scaling issue.  Even in traditional vertical leveilng many times a rat will be as tough as a guard if they are the same level.  Even as you level up combat challenge remains the same no matter what you fight.  

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,884
    Scorchien said:
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    But the problem IMO with ESO and GW2 is all those fights play out and feel exactly the same reagrdless of lvl or CP , every fight wether a rat or elite King Guard , feels and plays out the same .. over and over to nauseum ..

        And it should not feel that way , you know the difference in EQ for example from fighting a Rat from an Elite Gnoll Guard even early on , it feels the different the Guard presents a much more difficult fight and challenges , In ESO that Rat and Elite  Guard feel exactly the same .
    That is a challenge issue not a scaling issue.  Even in traditional vertical leveilng many times a rat will be as tough as a guard if they are the same level.  Even as you level up combat challenge remains the same no matter what you fight.  

    Lol yes very good , exactly and Scaling removed the any challenge fro ESO after T1 the game became a simplified spam fest , there are exactly 0 tactics used in ESO PVE before Vet Trials , Scaling borks challenge and puts nearly the entire game in casual easy mode , but thats what the Devs were aiming for sooo.
    Po_gg
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,068
    edited June 11
    AlBQuirky said:
    For those who enjoy scaling, is there a way to "test" your character, take on tougher mobs than you without hanging onto a higher level character in some fashion?
    Continuing with my theme of using ESO as an example just because it's the only level scaling MMORPG I have a lot of experience with, a mob's level has never been the only factor that determines the challenge.

    Even before you start getting into "elites", mini-bosses, bosses differentiation they have a range of mob difficulties ranging from trivial swarmers like skeevers and wolves, regular ones like bears and bandits, tougher ones like common Daedra and tougher yet again with special daedra, trolls, giants and mammoth... then come the different mini boss and boss ranks with some world bosses for example being much tougher than others - typically several moderate difficulty ones per zone that a well built, competent player can solo even though they are technically a group activity with one or two per zone that are bad mofos that only the best players can solo.

    Then there's difficulty based by location: the regular overland locations are the easiest, then comes delves where the same mob types tend to be a bit harder, then comes the dark anchor event mobs then the "public dungeons" that are tough delves with bigger packs and tougher mini-bosses - those are really meant for casual, drop-in grouping since they work like non-instanced dungeons like those in the early MMORPG games... they can be done solo too by above average players.

    After that you get into group instances with their own difficulty range from very easy to very tough (specially the newer DLC dungeons) and then the solo raid, Maelstrom Arena and finally full raids with their own range of difficulties as well.

    All of that is done with all mobs being the same exact level: level 50 / CP160 equivalent and all of them represent a different challenge for the noob level 10 guy with little choice about which abilities and passives they have to work with and the geared to the teeth vet players with 100s of CP points and all abilities they care to have unlocked.

    So despite the scaling your progression will eventually trivialize a lot of the content although not to the same extent that it's trivialized in non-scaled games when you go to a zone where everything cons white or gray to you.

    What you don't get in scaled games is the red con rats (or rat like thing with a new scaaaaryyyy skin to let you know they're not the same rats from level 1 but their mutant cousins with super powers) that will eat you alive. :smile:

    I mean lets get real here guys, if you want to look behind the curtain and strip games down to their mechanics essentials don't just do it for the scaled games you don't like - do it for all of them. Because all of them always have you fighting the same thing at any level be they scaled or not. Sure their 3D texture may change to make the level 162 thing look different than their level 1 cousin but it's the same bloody fight lol.

    And when they aren't the same fight it's because they have added new AI mechanics to the mob that you're not so familiar with - something that can be done with mobs of the same exact level (as ESO does) or reserved for higher level mobs in games that cling to the traditional "Dings matter!" formula.
    Torvalgervaise1AlBQuirkySteelhelm
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 495
    Scaling is awful.   Makes pretty much the whole game is the same from day one to the day you quit.  ESO does it in the worst way possible.  You group with lower friends but gear you get is to high for them, gear they get is too low for you.  

    pre-scaling if things were too easy and/or you were grouped, you could move to a tougher area.  ESO has very few tougher areas for smaller groups.  

    The games that scale down higher lvl toons to lower areas or to the lower lvl members in group are tolerable.  As long as they don't scale lower lvl toons up to all content and make it so that at day 1 I can basically go anywhere and have really nothing more to look forward to... I can tolerate it.  Otherwise it's a game longevity killer.  Killed one mob you've killed them all.
    JeffSpicoliSteelhelm
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    edited June 11
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    But the problem IMO with ESO and GW2 is all those fights play out and feel exactly the same reagrdless of lvl or CP , every fight wether a rat or elite King Guard , feels and plays out the same .. over and over to nauseum ..

        And it should not feel that way , you know the difference in EQ for example from fighting a Rat from an Elite Gnoll Guard even early on , it feels the different the Guard presents a much more difficult fight and challenges , In ESO that Rat and Elite  Guard feel exactly the same .
    That is a challenge issue not a scaling issue.  Even in traditional vertical leveilng many times a rat will be as tough as a guard if they are the same level.  Even as you level up combat challenge remains the same no matter what you fight.  

    Lol yes very good , exactly and Scaling removed the any challenge fro ESO after T1 the game became a simplified spam fest , there are exactly 0 tactics used in ESO PVE before Vet Trials , Scaling borks challenge and puts nearly the entire game in casual easy mode , but thats what the Devs were aiming for sooo.
    It is all a numbers game.  There is nothing stopping them from having easy, standard, hard, elite, group difficult creatures anymore than any other game.  Level scaling does not prevent that. 

    What modern game does fighting a level 50 npc at 50 feel different than fighting a level 30 at 30?

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,990
    / a snake kicks you for 10,000 damage.

    That would suck.
    AlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    I literally one shot things in WoW till like level 50.  Then it generally became two or 3 basically up to about 80 before I used my level boost from the expansion.  The game is what developers make it.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,068
    Amathe said:
    / a snake kicks you for 10,000 damage.

    That would suck.
    If it's a level 1 brown snake that just slithers in the grass it would.  But if it's a level 176 snake with green, blue and purple fluorescent scales that flies up in the air while taunting you using a famous voice actors' voice and then kicks you for 10,000 damage? That is what YT videos are for! :)
    TorvalVermillion_RaventhalJean-Luc_Picard
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,777
    edited June 12
    AlBQuirky said:
    For those who enjoy scaling, is there a way to "test" your character, take on tougher mobs than you without hanging onto a higher level character in some fashion?
    Sure there is a way to test your character because there is progression and tougher mobs. Traditional level scaling exists so people can trivialize challenge. The idea that MMO gamers like challenge is a lie. They like the illusion of challenges that they always win.

    It's not that I hate levels as an idea, it's just that it feels so outdated and clunky now. Mob conning seems so ridiculous to me now that it makes the game play feel comical. It's like being invited to a deep strategy game and the host opens up Chutes and Ladders. :lol:
    Post edited by Torval on
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,884
    edited June 11
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    But the problem IMO with ESO and GW2 is all those fights play out and feel exactly the same reagrdless of lvl or CP , every fight wether a rat or elite King Guard , feels and plays out the same .. over and over to nauseum ..

        And it should not feel that way , you know the difference in EQ for example from fighting a Rat from an Elite Gnoll Guard even early on , it feels the different the Guard presents a much more difficult fight and challenges , In ESO that Rat and Elite  Guard feel exactly the same .
    That is a challenge issue not a scaling issue.  Even in traditional vertical leveilng many times a rat will be as tough as a guard if they are the same level.  Even as you level up combat challenge remains the same no matter what you fight.  

    Lol yes very good , exactly and Scaling removed the any challenge fro ESO after T1 the game became a simplified spam fest , there are exactly 0 tactics used in ESO PVE before Vet Trials , Scaling borks challenge and puts nearly the entire game in casual easy mode , but thats what the Devs were aiming for sooo.
    It is all a numbers game.  There is nothing stopping them from having easy, standard, hard, elite, group difficult creatures anymore than any other game.  Level scaling does not prevent that.


      And yet it did and does in games like Eso and GW2


    What modern game does fighting a level 50 npc at 50 feel different than fighting a level 30 at 30?


      And because in other games i can go fight level  35 mobs at lvl 30 and challenge myself you cant do that in your scaling game cause everything is errr level 1


      This is pointless here , its not if you are equal level its a tactical problem for me , There are 0 Tactics used in a game like ESO for a huge portion (the majority) of the game ..

      The levle problem comes again where everything feels the same , in other games you can go to higher level area and challenge yourself ..

     since T1 and scaling nearly all of ESO content can be soloed by any player very quickly , heck you can get to lvl 50 in 2-4 hours if you want then rack up some CPs rather fast ..

     Further making the content trivialized ..

       Its my biggest beef with ESO , alto there are parts of the game i really enjoy ..

    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    edited June 11
    AlBQuirky said:
    gervaise1 said:
    @ABQuirky

    So you are not a fan of scaled dungeons - normal, vet, mythic etc.

    Serious question btw - no dig intended. As  I realised writing the above post however scaling has been common in dungeons for years and I can't remember any serious threads on "its really bad". 
    Really, the only dungeons I've done in MMOs was EQ. No scaling there. I liked that. No scaling made "powerleveling" a thing, not to mention a good way to "test" a group :)

    Do the mentioned WoW (are those WoW?) examples actually scale to the players? I thought they were meant to be tackled when "at the right character/gear level."

    I'm sure many players love scaling in MMOs. Many here like it. I can't say why no "serious threads" have been noted ;)
    1. As far as EQ1 goes yes early EQ1 (original RunnyEye say) didn't have scaled dungeons but the 2003 expansion Lost Dungeons of Norrath introduced them: Quote:

    "Lost Dungeons of Norrath breaks the mold of traditional zones by
    allowing every zone in the expansion to provide adventures for all
    groups between levels 20 and 65. Each time you embark on a new
    adventure, you're sent to one of 48 distinct dungeon zones, each
    customized with challenging monsters and traps tailored to the level of
    your group. This means, as long as you're over level 20, you'll have 48
    challenging new dungeons to explore and conquer! "

    Now this was "pure" scaling and other mmos have also adopted this approach. Sometime all dungeons can be done at different levels sometimes its a mix (LotR's are mostly scaled but not all for example).

    2. What I was really talking about though was dungeon difficulty levels which many games have done for - well over a decade now. So you will have your ma level "normal" dungeon; and then the hard version of the max level dungeon; and maybe the "very hard" version. Typically the mobs will have more hit points, higher resists, bosses may get extra minions and - maybe - a special attack here and there.

    If you read WoW threads and come across "Heroic" and "Mythic" dungeons runs etc. this is what is being talked about. Basically slightly tweaked content to keep players chasing the next gear level etc. Keep players subscribed! And basically re-use the same content.



    If your only experience has been EQ1 presumably before the 2003 LoDN expansion though then you can't comment. Or why this approach would be OK in dungeons but not OK if done in a landscape setting.
    AlBQuirky
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,633
    Scaling is the worst thing to happen in mmos since .... well it is on par with f2p shops, instatravel, point systems for gear, and removal of roles. Scaling makes everything bland, with meaningless progression and removal of challenge and failure, and therefore feeling of accomplishment. Plus scaling breaks immersion like nothing else, at least in real mmos that are supposed to be build as worlds (scaling is usually fine in lobby/instanced games and other "play by yourself together" type of games which are what many "mmos" have become anyways).
    ScorchienPo_ggAlBQuirky
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,070
    If you're going to have scaling why bother making more than one zone?
    AmarantharAlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    But the problem IMO with ESO and GW2 is all those fights play out and feel exactly the same reagrdless of lvl or CP , every fight wether a rat or elite King Guard , feels and plays out the same .. over and over to nauseum ..

        And it should not feel that way , you know the difference in EQ for example from fighting a Rat from an Elite Gnoll Guard even early on , it feels the different the Guard presents a much more difficult fight and challenges , In ESO that Rat and Elite  Guard feel exactly the same .
    That is a challenge issue not a scaling issue.  Even in traditional vertical leveilng many times a rat will be as tough as a guard if they are the same level.  Even as you level up combat challenge remains the same no matter what you fight.  

    Lol yes very good , exactly and Scaling removed the any challenge fro ESO after T1 the game became a simplified spam fest , there are exactly 0 tactics used in ESO PVE before Vet Trials , Scaling borks challenge and puts nearly the entire game in casual easy mode , but thats what the Devs were aiming for sooo.
    It is all a numbers game.  There is nothing stopping them from having easy, standard, hard, elite, group difficult creatures anymore than any other game.  Level scaling does not prevent that.


      And yet it did and does in games like Eso and GW2


    What modern game does fighting a level 50 npc at 50 feel different than fighting a level 30 at 30?


      And because in other games i can go fight level  35 mobs at lvl 30 and challenge myself you cant do that in your scaling game cause everything is errr level 1


      This is pointless here , its not if you are equal level its a tactical problem for me , There are 0 Tactics used in a game like ESO for a huge portion (the majority) of the game ..

      The levle problem comes again where everything feels the same , in other games you can go to higher level area and challenge yourself ..

     since T1 and scaling nearly all of ESO content can be soloed by any player very quickly , heck you can get to lvl 50 in 2-4 hours if you want then rack up some CPs rather fast ..

     Further making the content trivialized ..

       Its my biggest beef with ESO , alto there are parts of the game i really enjoy ..

    What game?  I played WoW and I could go to higher leveled areas I was content locked out of quest by levels so it was a waste of time. Quest generated way faster experience.

    As I said before difficulty is a design choice.  Leveling scaling can include elite NPCs that would be elite no matter your level.  
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    If you're going to have scaling why bother making more than one zone?
    If you are going to make end game 1 area why make more?  
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,549
    You couldn't do quests but you could still go there and attempt the mobs. I did it all the time.
    Scorchien
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,884
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    But the problem IMO with ESO and GW2 is all those fights play out and feel exactly the same reagrdless of lvl or CP , every fight wether a rat or elite King Guard , feels and plays out the same .. over and over to nauseum ..

        And it should not feel that way , you know the difference in EQ for example from fighting a Rat from an Elite Gnoll Guard even early on , it feels the different the Guard presents a much more difficult fight and challenges , In ESO that Rat and Elite  Guard feel exactly the same .
    That is a challenge issue not a scaling issue.  Even in traditional vertical leveilng many times a rat will be as tough as a guard if they are the same level.  Even as you level up combat challenge remains the same no matter what you fight.  

    Lol yes very good , exactly and Scaling removed the any challenge fro ESO after T1 the game became a simplified spam fest , there are exactly 0 tactics used in ESO PVE before Vet Trials , Scaling borks challenge and puts nearly the entire game in casual easy mode , but thats what the Devs were aiming for sooo.
    It is all a numbers game.  There is nothing stopping them from having easy, standard, hard, elite, group difficult creatures anymore than any other game.  Level scaling does not prevent that.


      And yet it did and does in games like Eso and GW2


    What modern game does fighting a level 50 npc at 50 feel different than fighting a level 30 at 30?


      And because in other games i can go fight level  35 mobs at lvl 30 and challenge myself you cant do that in your scaling game cause everything is errr level 1


      This is pointless here , its not if you are equal level its a tactical problem for me , There are 0 Tactics used in a game like ESO for a huge portion (the majority) of the game ..

      The levle problem comes again where everything feels the same , in other games you can go to higher level area and challenge yourself ..

     since T1 and scaling nearly all of ESO content can be soloed by any player very quickly , heck you can get to lvl 50 in 2-4 hours if you want then rack up some CPs rather fast ..

     Further making the content trivialized ..

       Its my biggest beef with ESO , alto there are parts of the game i really enjoy ..

    What game?  I played WoW and I could go to higher leveled areas I was content locked out of quest by levels so it was a waste of time. Quest generated way faster experience.

    As I said before difficulty is a design choice.  Leveling scaling can include elite NPCs that would be elite no matter your level.  
    This explains alot as you sound like a player who seeks the path of least resistence , you chose not to challenge yourself in combat because you could better XP questing , and why you lean towards scaling.. It is also a path of least reistence..


      Not that there is anything particularly wrong with that , there are many playstyles , some present more difficult and rewarding challenges .. others not so much , Scaling is of the latter imo
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    kjempff said:
    Scaling is the worst thing to happen in mmos since .... well it is on par with f2p shops, instatravel, point systems for gear, and removal of roles. Scaling makes everything bland, with meaningless progression and removal of challenge and failure, and therefore feeling of accomplishment. Plus scaling breaks immersion like nothing else, at least in real mmos that are supposed to be build as worlds (scaling is usually fine in lobby/instanced games and other "play by yourself together" type of games which are what many "mmos" have become anyways).
    Themepark are immersion breaking for me period.  It is a matter of taste. 

    I solo'd the Lich King and other cataclysm event causes in WoW over and over.  Yet I died to some random dungeon creature I was trying to solo.  How does that make sense?  Died to a high level regular bear afk.  

    The whole vertical progession thing never makes sense.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    edited June 12
    It's crazy how some folks brains are so clamped that they can't fathom a game having different zones with different challenges rather than some arbitrary power creep to be scaled.

    If we were in general chat this would probably be my first time typing the words "Go back to WoW".  :D
    Vermillion_RaventhalPo_ggJean-Luc_PicardAlBQuirkySteelhelmKyleran
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 858
    Depends what you mean by scaling... I don't mind players having the option to scale down for certain events and instances, or when in a party, but whole of world scaling where nothing changes but the numbers is bland, boring and pointless (i.e. focus on horizontal progression if you want the world to be 'accessible').
    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    But the problem IMO with ESO and GW2 is all those fights play out and feel exactly the same reagrdless of lvl or CP , every fight wether a rat or elite King Guard , feels and plays out the same .. over and over to nauseum ..

        And it should not feel that way , you know the difference in EQ for example from fighting a Rat from an Elite Gnoll Guard even early on , it feels the different the Guard presents a much more difficult fight and challenges , In ESO that Rat and Elite  Guard feel exactly the same .
    That is a challenge issue not a scaling issue.  Even in traditional vertical leveilng many times a rat will be as tough as a guard if they are the same level.  Even as you level up combat challenge remains the same no matter what you fight.  

    Lol yes very good , exactly and Scaling removed the any challenge fro ESO after T1 the game became a simplified spam fest , there are exactly 0 tactics used in ESO PVE before Vet Trials , Scaling borks challenge and puts nearly the entire game in casual easy mode , but thats what the Devs were aiming for sooo.
    It is all a numbers game.  There is nothing stopping them from having easy, standard, hard, elite, group difficult creatures anymore than any other game.  Level scaling does not prevent that.


      And yet it did and does in games like Eso and GW2


    What modern game does fighting a level 50 npc at 50 feel different than fighting a level 30 at 30?


      And because in other games i can go fight level  35 mobs at lvl 30 and challenge myself you cant do that in your scaling game cause everything is errr level 1


      This is pointless here , its not if you are equal level its a tactical problem for me , There are 0 Tactics used in a game like ESO for a huge portion (the majority) of the game ..

      The levle problem comes again where everything feels the same , in other games you can go to higher level area and challenge yourself ..

     since T1 and scaling nearly all of ESO content can be soloed by any player very quickly , heck you can get to lvl 50 in 2-4 hours if you want then rack up some CPs rather fast ..

     Further making the content trivialized ..

       Its my biggest beef with ESO , alto there are parts of the game i really enjoy ..

    What game?  I played WoW and I could go to higher leveled areas I was content locked out of quest by levels so it was a waste of time. Quest generated way faster experience.

    As I said before difficulty is a design choice.  Leveling scaling can include elite NPCs that would be elite no matter your level.  
    This explains alot as you sound like a player who seeks the path of least resistence , you chose not to challenge yourself in combat because you could better XP questing , and why you lean towards scaling.. It is also a path of least reistence..


      Not that there is anything particularly wrong with that , there are many playstyles , some present more difficult and rewarding challenges .. others not so much , Scaling is of the latter imo
    I don't like pure themeparks in general. If I want to randomly kill crap for a challenge there are games that do it better and more fun. 

    I did do dungeons until it became impossible solo in WoWs prior expansion.  I didn't find it challenging.  Either I could kill them with a rotation or gear score/design said no. There isn't a lot of technique or counter moves that can really make you achieve beyond what you should.  

    Amaranthar
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