Again grandfathered mechanics and concepts. But I been down this path once before. If I had the funding I would make the next new aged mmo
Do you think it would sell? (just asking)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.
Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.
One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content. Maybe there are lessons.
Wait, what? Not sure about UO, but reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.
SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?
UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.
This is untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..
Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
Ask WIldstar how catering to the elite raider crowd worked out...
IMO, raid-quality gear should be obtainable either through raiding or crafting. And that said, the raids shouldn't be ridiculous time-sinks requiring 40+ people. We live in a goGoGO world. Ain't nobody got time for a 6-hour dungeon crawl while herding 40+ people away from their friends, family, and/or jobs. These games HAVE to make money, so they cannot cater exclusively to no-lifers.
And about SWG...man I miss Entertainers in the Cantinas. Remember gearing up your entertainment bot to do different stuffs? Quality fun right there, IMO.
I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.
Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.
One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content. Maybe there are lessons.
Wait, what? Not sure about UO, but reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.
SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?
UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.
This is untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..
Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.
Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.
One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content. Maybe there are lessons.
Wait, what? Not sure about UO, but reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.
SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?
UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.
This is untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..
Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
Well that would be there problem if they did not take the time to learn the systems and ran out in the Brit Woods unprepared , and then cried endlessly when they got ganked , and were stupid enough to return to the scene to get ganked again Or better yet except a rez from the very group that ganked you .. The were alot of very stupid players in UO who found it easier to cry on forums rather than learn the game
I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.
Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.
One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content. Maybe there are lessons.
Wait, what? Not sure about UO, but reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.
SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?
UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.
This is untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..
Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
Well that would be there problem if they did not take the time to learn the systems and ran out in the Brit Woods unprepared , and then cried endlessly when they got ganked , and were stupid enough to return to the scene to get ganked again Or better yet except a rez from the very group that ganked you .. The were alot of very stupid players in UO who found it easier to cry on forums rather than learn the game
In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really) didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.
A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.
Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.
One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content. Maybe there are lessons.
Wait, what? Not sure about UO, but reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.
SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?
UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.
This is untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..
Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
Well that would be there problem if they did not take the time to learn the systems and ran out in the Brit Woods unprepared , and then cried endlessly when they got ganked , and were stupid enough to return to the scene to get ganked again Or better yet except a rez from the very group that ganked you .. The were alot of very stupid players in UO who found it easier to cry on forums rather than learn the game
In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really) didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.
A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?
Im sorry Kyle , , but why would anyone to expect people to act any differently in a game than in RL... To many people dont know how to act in there day to day , and we knew this in 2007, 1997 ,1987 , 1957 .. etc..
When i went into UO i read the the box , i read all the info on the site , I read the forums .. was easy and i assumed there would be bad guys in game , was not hard to figure out , Then i learned about the systems in game .. was easy ..
But , on the topic , i was just mentioning that it was really quite easy to progress in UO soloing ...
And as the avid Eve player you are/were , im sure you knew there could douches in game before the first time you hit Play
I think everyone should have the opportunity to get the best gear on the game from a variety of paths. Whether they actually do or not depends on if they're successful.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So, in conclusion, games should have several situational BIS sets for special purposes:
BIS raid gear that is only BIS for raids
BIS PvP gear that is only BIS for PvP
BIS crafting and gathering gear that is only BIS for crafting and gathering
BIS exploring gear that is only BIS for exploring
... and so on.
Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.
/endthread
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really) didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.
A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?
That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.
I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release. People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes. I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another. Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).
People were literally different on the internet back then. Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
So, in conclusion, games should have several situational BIS sets for special purposes:
BIS raid gear that is only BIS for raids
BIS PvP gear that is only BIS for PvP
BIS crafting and gathering gear that is only BIS for crafting and gathering
BIS exploring gear that is only BIS for exploring
... and so on.
Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.
/endthread
F that, man! It's not BIS if it's not BIS for EVERYTHING!
/restartthreadwar
You can always keep the fashion statement items One BIS to Rule Them All. After all, the only thing that really matters in MMOs these days is looking cooler than the plebs.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So, in conclusion, games should have several situational BIS sets for special purposes:
BIS raid gear that is only BIS for raids
BIS PvP gear that is only BIS for PvP
BIS crafting and gathering gear that is only BIS for crafting and gathering
BIS exploring gear that is only BIS for exploring
... and so on.
Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.
/endthread
F that, man! It's not BIS if it's not BIS for EVERYTHING!
/restartthreadwar
You can always keep the fashion statement items One BIS to Rule Them All. After all, the only thing that really matters in MMOs these days is looking cooler than the plebs.
I'm assuming the One BIS to Rule Them All naturally correlates to the most expensive cosmetic cash shop item(s). (Naturally, you'll sell it as a full outfit, or more expensive pieces.)
So, in conclusion, games should have several situational BIS sets for special purposes:
BIS raid gear that is only BIS for raids
BIS PvP gear that is only BIS for PvP
BIS crafting and gathering gear that is only BIS for crafting and gathering
BIS exploring gear that is only BIS for exploring
... and so on.
Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.
/endthread
F that, man! It's not BIS if it's not BIS for EVERYTHING!
/restartthreadwar
You can always keep the fashion statement items One BIS to Rule Them All. After all, the only thing that really matters in MMOs these days is looking cooler than the plebs.
I'm assuming the One BIS to Rule Them All naturally correlates to the most expensive cosmetic cash shop item(s).
Only from loot boxes
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I haven't read everything... far too many replies.
... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.
I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.
Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.
One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content. Maybe there are lessons.
Wait, what? Not sure about UO, but reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.
SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?
UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.
This is untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..
Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
Well that would be there problem if they did not take the time to learn the systems and ran out in the Brit Woods unprepared , and then cried endlessly when they got ganked , and were stupid enough to return to the scene to get ganked again Or better yet except a rez from the very group that ganked you .. The were alot of very stupid players in UO who found it easier to cry on forums rather than learn the game
In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really) didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.
A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?
Im sorry Kyle , , but why would anyone to expect people to act any differently in a game than in RL... To many people dont know how to act in there day to day , and we knew this in 2007, 1997 ,1987 , 1957 .. etc..
When i went into UO i read the the box , i read all the info on the site , I read the forums .. was easy and i assumed there would be bad guys in game , was not hard to figure out , Then i learned about the systems in game .. was easy ..
But , on the topic , i was just mentioning that it was really quite easy to progress in UO soloing ...
And as the avid Eve player you are/were , im sure you knew there could douches in game before the first time you hit Play
By 2007 when I tried EVE I was well educated regarding player douchery, but in 2002 when I first started online gaming, not so much.
Guess I was lucky, my first few MMOs, L1, DAOC, SB, L2 really weren't full of rampant arseholes, wasn't until WOW I first ran into them enmasse.
Reading since then about other games I realize they had some severe issues, but again, I missed them by good fortune.
Real life douchery is a actually quite uncommon as there are consequences to pissing off a 240#, crabby looking bald guy with a firearm permit, people are just a whole lot more respectful I assure you.
Back to topic, there are always ways to solo in most any MMORPG, I did it much of my time in most early games as I was always a big time multiboxer, who needed friends, I brought my own.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really) didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.
A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?
That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.
I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release. People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes. I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another. Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).
People were literally different on the internet back then. Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
Always have been jack asses online. Always.
I do think people were more social in general though good and bad. Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again. Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often.
In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really) didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.
A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?
That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.
I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release. People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes. I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another. Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).
People were literally different on the internet back then. Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
Always have been jack asses online. Always.
I do think people were more social in general though good and bad. Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again. Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often.
I agree they existed, but again: ratio and intensity. Either through ignorance or feeling of responsibility, things like doxing or swatting weren't existent or weren't common enough to be a thing, and certainly not common terms.
It was truly different, even if humanity's flaws still showed up periodically.
I haven't read everything... far too many replies.
... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.
I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
Might want to avoid just dumping a change to a single part of a system into a system it's not made to accommodate then. If yer gonna get that granular about people buying their way to victory, you always have people willing to pay their way through raids in the first place.
Now, while that issue can be countered with the fact that paying your way through a raid is not generally a game-sanctioned method, the point there would be none the less that if you want to address not letting people abuse a system through financial power, then you're going to have to step it up either way.
In the instance of gear being tradable, it kills one thing people would pay for, but does introduce another thing they might pay for. At this point you have to weigh what impact your solution is going to have on the game in that;
1) You can allow a mechanic around cash shops and transfer of currency through trade into game currency to buy things with, and create a legal path for whales or similar people to pay their way to obtaining certain things in the game economy.
2) You can try and keep it separate, and acknowledge that there will still be a background "black market" economy of people buying items from one another. Or if you don't allow trade, paying people to run them through a raid or similar to obtain the gear.
The reason you might want to consider the first option, is not actually for the second reason brought up there though. Yes, gaming "black markets" will be a thing, but that is itself not an excuse to "legalize" such trades. Instead, it's a question of how allowing those trades may impact the player economy.
This feeds into the very argument of how to monetize a F2P title or title with a cash shop in general, and largely hinges on how "whales" and their buying power will consequently impact a game with their presence. The reason you would consider allowing players to invest their money into the player economy is because, well, they would be investing in the player economy.
At least from my perspective, the best way to implement a monetisation scenario around cash shops and F2P that's as user friendly as it can be is by making a situation where the likes of whales and their purchases, feeds other players in the game's community rather than simply giving the whale a step up above the other players.
In the case of buying raid gear, if a game has a way to obtain game currency as many modern titles, and if it allows transition of that currency into the player economy, that means someone else, potentially multiple people, are consequently getting cash-shop currency they have traded the other direction to obtain. This is often the case already in many such games, and gives a basic feedback loop where people willing to grind in a game can benefit from those willing to pay for something, giving a mutually beneficial scenario that the company can also benefit from.
But this situation can be improved to favor players and the community more, by making many monetary purchases themselves focused around enhancing the community rather than just oneself directly.
This is the kind of thing that'd need it's own thread to discuss however, as there's ALOT more to be discussed on that matter both positively and negatively, and doesn't really pertain very directly to the things in question within this thread aside form it's connection and influence upon the player community and economy.
I haven't read everything... far too many replies.
... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.
I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
I think players buying from other players should be part of any MMORPG's economy. It's the cash shops selling in-game currency that makes this particular thing PtW.
Limnic hit on this in much more detail just above my post. I just wanted to highlight this one point of view, one I feel strongly about.
I haven't read everything... far too many replies.
... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.
I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
I think players buying from other players should be part of any MMORPG's economy. It's the cash shops selling in-game currency that makes this particular thing PtW.
Limnic hit on this in much more detail just above my post. I just wanted to highlight this one point of view, one I feel strongly about.
That's exactly what I said...
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
As long as raid gear isn't the best for PvP I don't care what gear they have. Give them +100 to slaying dragons or whatever but keep their dragon gear away from PvP/
As long as raid gear isn't the best for PvP I don't care what gear they have. Give them +100 to slaying dragons or whatever but keep their dragon gear away from PvP/
Not practical really, as in most games the dragon operates the same way as a player character, difference being it has far more hit points and deals more dps.
The same attributes raid gear imparts to help a player (more str, power, speed, etc) kill a dragon also in general work against other players equally well.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
(just asking)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
IMO, raid-quality gear should be obtainable either through raiding or crafting. And that said, the raids shouldn't be ridiculous time-sinks requiring 40+ people. We live in a goGoGO world. Ain't nobody got time for a 6-hour dungeon crawl while herding 40+ people away from their friends, family, and/or jobs. These games HAVE to make money, so they cannot cater exclusively to no-lifers.
And about SWG...man I miss Entertainers in the Cantinas. Remember gearing up your entertainment bot to do different stuffs? Quality fun right there, IMO.
That's just, like, my opinion, man.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How hard should it be to get the best gear in the game?
Should almost everyone be able to get the best gear in the game?
Should almost everyone be able to get the best gear in the game but hardcore get it faster etc?
or Should only the top 1% get the best gear in the game?
Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.
/endthread
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
In coh I have all 18 storage shelves full. There are 110 salvage pieces and only 18 shelves? Egads.
/restartthreadwar
I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release. People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes. I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another. Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).
People were literally different on the internet back then. Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.
I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
Guess I was lucky, my first few MMOs, L1, DAOC, SB, L2 really weren't full of rampant arseholes, wasn't until WOW I first ran into them enmasse.
Reading since then about other games I realize they had some severe issues, but again, I missed them by good fortune.
Real life douchery is a actually quite uncommon as there are consequences to pissing off a 240#, crabby looking bald guy with a firearm permit, people are just a whole lot more respectful I assure you.
Back to topic, there are always ways to solo in most any MMORPG, I did it much of my time in most early games as I was always a big time multiboxer, who needed friends, I brought my own.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do think people were more social in general though good and bad. Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again. Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often.
It was truly different, even if humanity's flaws still showed up periodically.
Now, while that issue can be countered with the fact that paying your way through a raid is not generally a game-sanctioned method, the point there would be none the less that if you want to address not letting people abuse a system through financial power, then you're going to have to step it up either way.
In the instance of gear being tradable, it kills one thing people would pay for, but does introduce another thing they might pay for. At this point you have to weigh what impact your solution is going to have on the game in that;
1) You can allow a mechanic around cash shops and transfer of currency through trade into game currency to buy things with, and create a legal path for whales or similar people to pay their way to obtaining certain things in the game economy.
2) You can try and keep it separate, and acknowledge that there will still be a background "black market" economy of people buying items from one another. Or if you don't allow trade, paying people to run them through a raid or similar to obtain the gear.
The reason you might want to consider the first option, is not actually for the second reason brought up there though. Yes, gaming "black markets" will be a thing, but that is itself not an excuse to "legalize" such trades. Instead, it's a question of how allowing those trades may impact the player economy.
This feeds into the very argument of how to monetize a F2P title or title with a cash shop in general, and largely hinges on how "whales" and their buying power will consequently impact a game with their presence. The reason you would consider allowing players to invest their money into the player economy is because, well, they would be investing in the player economy.
At least from my perspective, the best way to implement a monetisation scenario around cash shops and F2P that's as user friendly as it can be is by making a situation where the likes of whales and their purchases, feeds other players in the game's community rather than simply giving the whale a step up above the other players.
In the case of buying raid gear, if a game has a way to obtain game currency as many modern titles, and if it allows transition of that currency into the player economy, that means someone else, potentially multiple people, are consequently getting cash-shop currency they have traded the other direction to obtain. This is often the case already in many such games, and gives a basic feedback loop where people willing to grind in a game can benefit from those willing to pay for something, giving a mutually beneficial scenario that the company can also benefit from.
But this situation can be improved to favor players and the community more, by making many monetary purchases themselves focused around enhancing the community rather than just oneself directly.
This is the kind of thing that'd need it's own thread to discuss however, as there's ALOT more to be discussed on that matter both positively and negatively, and doesn't really pertain very directly to the things in question within this thread aside form it's connection and influence upon the player community and economy.
It's the cash shops selling in-game currency that makes this particular thing PtW.
Limnic hit on this in much more detail just above my post. I just wanted to highlight this one point of view, one I feel strongly about.
Once upon a time....
The same attributes raid gear imparts to help a player (more str, power, speed, etc) kill a dragon also in general work against other players equally well.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon