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Change or Tweak?

AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,797
edited June 2019 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Reading various topics, it seems clear to me that while many of you are calling for change, you actually seem to want to tweak the status quo.
You don't seem to want to give up the levels and power gaps that cause the game play to be what it is.
You just want what is to function differently.
Is that right?


Once upon a time....

Comments

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    edited June 2019
    That saying "gamers don't really know what they want" or whatever it is it's pretty much true, but not at the same time. Kind of like the saying "the customer is always right", which is actually false, but they never wrong. You see, the people here want something different but don't truly know what that is. No one really does ATM or it would be created in a heartbeat. Someone will get it right though at some point as long as they keep trying.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    edited June 2019
    It's hard to vote, based on MMOs made today, not yesteryear.

    MMOs today? CHANGE, in a heartbeat, but not something entirely different from what I expect an MMORPG to be.

    MMORPG's of old, TWEAK. A lot of technology advances and Quality of Life improvements since their heyday.

    I'd just like to see the in-game community and actual RPG aspects again :)
    Scot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,797
    AlBQuirky said:
    It's hard to vote, based on MMOs made today, not yesteryear.

    MMOs today? CHANGE, in a heartbeat, but not something entirely different from what I expect an MMORPG to be.

    MMORPG's of old, TWEAK. A lot of technology advances and Quality of Life improvements since their heyday.

    I'd just like to see the in-game community and actual RPG aspects again :)
    No, it doesn't appear that you want a change from today's MMOs. None of you.
    I look at a thread like the one titled "Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid/p12#3H137kdpodmsLHHO.99
    and everyone wants changes to that system, but not the system itself.
    No one wants a change to something different. Just tweaks.

    I look at posts about supposed change, and 2 or 3 want to actually change it. Everyone else keeps talking about tweaks to the current design.
    "Harder" being the current call.
    But almost everyone, to a tee, wants the same levels / Raids / power gaps, etc. game design.
    In other words, the same basic game design.




    Once upon a time....

  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    Amaranthar said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It's hard to vote, based on MMOs made today, not yesteryear.

    MMOs today? CHANGE, in a heartbeat, but not something entirely different from what I expect an MMORPG to be.

    MMORPG's of old, TWEAK. A lot of technology advances and Quality of Life improvements since their heyday.

    I'd just like to see the in-game community and actual RPG aspects again :)
    No, it doesn't appear that you want a change from today's MMOs. None of you.
    I look at a thread like the one titled "Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid/p12#3H137kdpodmsLHHO.99
    and everyone wants changes to that system, but not the system itself.
    No one wants a change to something different. Just tweaks.

    I look at posts about supposed change, and 2 or 3 want to actually change it. Everyone else keeps talking about tweaks to the current design.
    "Harder" being the current call.
    But almost everyone, to a tee, wants the same levels / Raids / power gaps, etc. game design.
    In other words, the same basic game design.

    You just baited people in so you could outright have an opportunity to directly contradict them, didn't you?
    ScotSovrathAlBQuirkySteelhelm
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Personally, I'm not looking to reinvent the genre. I liked how it was. 
    Octagon7711AlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,797
    edited June 2019
    AlBQuirky said:
    It's hard to vote, based on MMOs made today, not yesteryear.

    MMOs today? CHANGE, in a heartbeat, but not something entirely different from what I expect an MMORPG to be.

    MMORPG's of old, TWEAK. A lot of technology advances and Quality of Life improvements since their heyday.

    I'd just like to see the in-game community and actual RPG aspects again :)
    No, it doesn't appear that you want a change from today's MMOs. None of you.
    I look at a thread like the one titled "Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid/p12#3H137kdpodmsLHHO.99
    and everyone wants changes to that system, but not the system itself.
    No one wants a change to something different. Just tweaks.

    I look at posts about supposed change, and 2 or 3 want to actually change it. Everyone else keeps talking about tweaks to the current design.
    "Harder" being the current call.
    But almost everyone, to a tee, wants the same levels / Raids / power gaps, etc. game design.
    In other words, the same basic game design.

    You just baited people in so you could outright have an opportunity to directly contradict them, didn't you?
    Nope. Just pointing out what appears to be the truth.
    If it's correct, people can proceed from a better understanding of what they really want.
    So instead of saying that you all want a change from the WoW style of games, you can get at the heart of what you really want and say that you want to modify the WoW style of games.
    And stop saying that the genre needs change. It only needs modifications.

    (That's not what I want. But it seems to be the way things really are. Wish I were wrong about it.)

    It would also be very helpful to my chi if I could stop wasting energy on these conversations, and not bring up some false hope for real change when very, very few others actually want that.

    Once upon a time....

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Amaranthar said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It's hard to vote, based on MMOs made today, not yesteryear.

    MMOs today? CHANGE, in a heartbeat, but not something entirely different from what I expect an MMORPG to be.

    MMORPG's of old, TWEAK. A lot of technology advances and Quality of Life improvements since their heyday.

    I'd just like to see the in-game community and actual RPG aspects again :)
    No, it doesn't appear that you want a change from today's MMOs. None of you.
    I look at a thread like the one titled "Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid/p12#3H137kdpodmsLHHO.99
    and everyone wants changes to that system, but not the system itself.
    No one wants a change to something different. Just tweaks.

    I look at posts about supposed change, and 2 or 3 want to actually change it. Everyone else keeps talking about tweaks to the current design.
    "Harder" being the current call.
    But almost everyone, to a tee, wants the same levels / Raids / power gaps, etc. game design.
    In other words, the same basic game design.

    You just baited people in so you could outright have an opportunity to directly contradict them, didn't you?
    Nope. Just pointing out what appears to be the truth.
    If it's correct, people can proceed from a better understanding of what they really want.
    So instead of saying that you all want a change from the WoW style of games, you can get at the heart of what you really want and say that you want to modify the WoW style of games.
    And stop saying that the genre needs change. It only needs modifications.

    (That's not what I want. But it seems to be the way things really are. Wish I were wrong about it.)

    It would also be very helpful to my chi if I could stop wasting energy on these conversations, and not bring up some false hope for real change when very, very few others actually want that.
    Talking about aspects of the current genre doesn't mean people don't want changes.  I don't enjoy themepark much as it is.  I don't find the progression to be engaging and I don't like the end game. 

    But considering there is no real quality alternatives then you talk about working within the system.  Having something to do end game that would be enjoyable.  I enjoyed "raiding" in Anthem and the cranking up difficulty in missions though they could be more than number based.  These were are all 1-4 man missions.  Too bad the game is super shallow.


  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    People vote with their wallets, so while developers etc. might think they know what people want, if the game fails, you can be very sure they were wrong. The market never lies. :p
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Phry said:
    People vote with their wallets, so while developers etc. might think they know what people want, if the game fails, you can be very sure they were wrong. The market never lies. :p
    Games have to be made.  And with F2P whales and freeloaders rule the day. 
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,952
    edited June 2019
    We discussed radical redesigns in that thread so not sure where you are getting the idea of tweaks from. We don't all want the same redesign, so some want tweaks some want something more radical mostly you see this in the PvP and sandbox area.
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Amaranthar said:
    Reading various topics, it seems clear to me that while many of you are calling for change, you actually seem to want to tweak the status quo.
    You don't seem to want to give up the levels and power gaps that cause the game play to be what it is.
    You just want what is to function differently.
    Is that right?


    I'm ready for some revolutionary change but I doubt it will happen. Partly because the majority are resistant to change and it is low risk for developers to stick with known formulas. Partly because I think games get streamlined to deliver content for a low cost and the better alternate games we might be able to imagine are potentially more content heavy and more expensive to develop and update.
    Vermillion_Raventhal[Deleted User]Mendel
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Aenghas said:
    Amaranthar said:
    Reading various topics, it seems clear to me that while many of you are calling for change, you actually seem to want to tweak the status quo.
    You don't seem to want to give up the levels and power gaps that cause the game play to be what it is.
    You just want what is to function differently.
    Is that right?


    I'm ready for some revolutionary change but I doubt it will happen. Partly because the majority are resistant to change and it is low risk for developers to stick with known formulas. Partly because I think games get streamlined to deliver content for a low cost and the better alternate games we might be able to imagine are potentially more content heavy and more expensive to develop and update.
    People are resistant to change.  They get tired of the same but most can't even conceive change.  You'll be told your playing the wrong genre lol.  
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,001
    Amaranthar said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It's hard to vote, based on MMOs made today, not yesteryear.

    MMOs today? CHANGE, in a heartbeat, but not something entirely different from what I expect an MMORPG to be.

    MMORPG's of old, TWEAK. A lot of technology advances and Quality of Life improvements since their heyday.

    I'd just like to see the in-game community and actual RPG aspects again :)
    No, it doesn't appear that you want a change from today's MMOs. None of you.
    I look at a thread like the one titled "Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid/p12#3H137kdpodmsLHHO.99
    and everyone wants changes to that system, but not the system itself.
    No one wants a change to something different. Just tweaks.

    I look at posts about supposed change, and 2 or 3 want to actually change it. Everyone else keeps talking about tweaks to the current design.
    "Harder" being the current call.
    But almost everyone, to a tee, wants the same levels / Raids / power gaps, etc. game design.
    In other words, the same basic game design.

    You just baited people in so you could outright have an opportunity to directly contradict them, didn't you?
    Nope. Just pointing out what appears to be the truth.
    If it's correct, people can proceed from a better understanding of what they really want.
    So instead of saying that you all want a change from the WoW style of games, you can get at the heart of what you really want and say that you want to modify the WoW style of games.
    And stop saying that the genre needs change. It only needs modifications.

    (That's not what I want. But it seems to be the way things really are. Wish I were wrong about it.)

    It would also be very helpful to my chi if I could stop wasting energy on these conversations, and not bring up some false hope for real change when very, very few others actually want that.
    Change doesn't necessarily mean "throw the baby out with the bathwater."

    Additionally, it can mean change to some things and not to others.

    Too many people with too many preferences. You can't really say that most people want the same thing. Most people want different things but are willing to agree on certain points.


    Scot
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Tweaks are changes. Sometimes a little is enough, sometimes it needs to be everything.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Why did you even ask, since you apparently know all of our minds?
    Scot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    I would leave leveling in the past.  Just gaining abilities and specialized gear.  

    Drop questhubs for procedurally generated content.  If it's going to be generic at least make it unpredictable, personal and solvable. Move away from raids on demand.  

    Sandbox elements for player city building. Realistic resource control with resource gathering structures like mines and lumber yards.

    Try to make option PvP that is meaningful.  Random killing and exchanging out post is not meaningful.

    Crafting being a valued and varied aspect of the game.  


    GdemamiSteelhelm
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,797
    Sovrath said:
    Amaranthar said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It's hard to vote, based on MMOs made today, not yesteryear.

    MMOs today? CHANGE, in a heartbeat, but not something entirely different from what I expect an MMORPG to be.

    MMORPG's of old, TWEAK. A lot of technology advances and Quality of Life improvements since their heyday.

    I'd just like to see the in-game community and actual RPG aspects again :)
    No, it doesn't appear that you want a change from today's MMOs. None of you.
    I look at a thread like the one titled "Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid/p12#3H137kdpodmsLHHO.99
    and everyone wants changes to that system, but not the system itself.
    No one wants a change to something different. Just tweaks.

    I look at posts about supposed change, and 2 or 3 want to actually change it. Everyone else keeps talking about tweaks to the current design.
    "Harder" being the current call.
    But almost everyone, to a tee, wants the same levels / Raids / power gaps, etc. game design.
    In other words, the same basic game design.

    You just baited people in so you could outright have an opportunity to directly contradict them, didn't you?
    Nope. Just pointing out what appears to be the truth.
    If it's correct, people can proceed from a better understanding of what they really want.
    So instead of saying that you all want a change from the WoW style of games, you can get at the heart of what you really want and say that you want to modify the WoW style of games.
    And stop saying that the genre needs change. It only needs modifications.

    (That's not what I want. But it seems to be the way things really are. Wish I were wrong about it.)

    It would also be very helpful to my chi if I could stop wasting energy on these conversations, and not bring up some false hope for real change when very, very few others actually want that.
    Change doesn't necessarily mean "throw the baby out with the bathwater."

    Additionally, it can mean change to some things and not to others.

    Too many people with too many preferences. You can't really say that most people want the same thing. Most people want different things but are willing to agree on certain points.


    And it's that agreement on certain points that I'm getting at.
    How many of you want to actually change AWAY FROM the leveling* system, the gear over gear system, the stepping stones of level range to level range until you get to an "end game" where new content, new levels, better gear...i.e. the foundation of MMOs these days...is required?

    *And by the "leveling system", I'm describing it in the rest of my comment.*


    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,797
    Vermillion_Raventhal said:
    I would leave leveling in the past.  Just gaining abilities and specialized gear.  

    Drop questhubs for procedurally generated content.  If it's going to be generic at least make it unpredictable, personal and solvable. Move away from raids on demand.  

    Sandbox elements for player city building. Realistic resource control with resource gathering structures like mines and lumber yards.

    Try to make option PvP that is meaningful.  Random killing and exchanging out post is not meaningful.

    Crafting being a valued and varied aspect of the game.  


    IF YOU are talking about lowering the power gaps in your first sentence, then you are talking about real changes.
    IF NOT, then the rest of the items you listed would just be another form of "end game" because the maxed out characters would dominate that game play. Worse, it would leave all other players hopelessly without a say in the outcomes, yet subject to the meaningful effects. (Not a good situation.)

    Once upon a time....

  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 1,019
    At the end of the day, I just want what I play to entertain me, and not get in its own way of that...

    I've played good sandboxes, themeparks, Single-Player, Multi-Player, FFA, you name it, so as long as it's made well with fun game play as its core, I'll be good to go!

    If the graphics are simple or cutting edge, idgad, make it fun!

    I don't want to have to pay to beta test and bug report for dev's either. Get that shit in line before you release it, as much as possible...

    We've had too many games needing a good "Redemption Story" lately.

    Gut Out!
    Steelhelm

    What, me worry?

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Amaranthar said:
    Vermillion_Raventhal said:
    I would leave leveling in the past.  Just gaining abilities and specialized gear.  

    Drop questhubs for procedurally generated content.  If it's going to be generic at least make it unpredictable, personal and solvable. Move away from raids on demand.  

    Sandbox elements for player city building. Realistic resource control with resource gathering structures like mines and lumber yards.

    Try to make option PvP that is meaningful.  Random killing and exchanging out post is not meaningful.

    Crafting being a valued and varied aspect of the game.  


    IF YOU are talking about lowering the power gaps in your first sentence, then you are talking about real changes.
    IF NOT, then the rest of the items you listed would just be another form of "end game" because the maxed out characters would dominate that game play. Worse, it would leave all other players hopelessly without a say in the outcomes, yet subject to the meaningful effects. (Not a good situation.)
    Power gap would be lower.  Things would be gated by more logical things like keys, gear and etc.  
    Amaranthar
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,797
    I like the idea of some content being "gated" by keys. (Not sure how you mean by gear.)

    Keys, including magical Wyrds of Power, magical items that need to be fitted into slots of some type, even mundane things to do that unlock content (such as figuring out that you need to fill an empty basin in the next room with water from your canteen, clues found in another dungeon or ruin).

    This leaves a barrier for our good friends here that we must overcome in order to shine the light. That being how Low Power Gaps can work to be just as much fun as the "Level Grind" types of huge power gaps. That's for another topic.

    Once upon a time....

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Amaranthar said:
    I like the idea of some content being "gated" by keys. (Not sure how you mean by gear.)

    Keys, including magical Wyrds of Power, magical items that need to be fitted into slots of some type, even mundane things to do that unlock content (such as figuring out that you need to fill an empty basin in the next room with water from your canteen, clues found in another dungeon or ruin).

    This leaves a barrier for our good friends here that we must overcome in order to shine the light. That being how Low Power Gaps can work to be just as much fun as the "Level Grind" types of huge power gaps. That's for another topic.

    Well a key is just an easy example.  You have a dungeon or door that needs a key.  Gear could mean there is a realm in the sky and you need Pegasus shoes to walk on clouds and glide.  It is more action adventure route like Legend of Zelda but I think content in themeparks need a huge shake up from kill and fedexing.
    Gdemami
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,797
    Vermillion_Raventhal said:
    Amaranthar said:
    I like the idea of some content being "gated" by keys. (Not sure how you mean by gear.)

    Keys, including magical Wyrds of Power, magical items that need to be fitted into slots of some type, even mundane things to do that unlock content (such as figuring out that you need to fill an empty basin in the next room with water from your canteen, clues found in another dungeon or ruin).

    This leaves a barrier for our good friends here that we must overcome in order to shine the light. That being how Low Power Gaps can work to be just as much fun as the "Level Grind" types of huge power gaps. That's for another topic.

    Well a key is just an easy example.  You have a dungeon or door that needs a key.  Gear could mean there is a realm in the sky and you need Pegasus shoes to walk on clouds and glide.  It is more action adventure route like Legend of Zelda but I think content in themeparks need a huge shake up from kill and fedexing.
    Same for Sandbox games, where all this stuff fits in so much better.
    Themeparks, heck, lower the power gaps enough and you get a Sandbox that you can add more Sandboxy content to.

    Once upon a time....

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