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Crowfall – Industry Day - MMORPG.com

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  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 666
    blamo2000 said:
    That's not what they said.  It was supposed to go into the soft release in 2018 (late fall I was told).  Since then I've checked every month or so, and the soft release was just a patch or two away.  No solid info, just hints and cryptic statements meant to get people to buy.  I've never had a harder time trying to find solid information or even big clues.  I've never had to read through so many forum posts trying to find a hint of something solid, and it was always almost.  
    Could you cite that, please?  I've probably missed it, but I don't remember anything about a soft release.  Every conversation I've had with them has been "pre-alpha" and "alpha to start later 2019."   Granted, I think they did originally target late 2018 for alpha, but schedules slip.   You should never take the initial timeline to be gospel.

    The better measurement would be to check the list of features they promised and them look at how fast you see them roll out.   You also have to consider the technical challenges and weight that, too.   For instance, the ad-hoc world generation was a new tech.  They were going to need a little extra time to figure that out.   Combat was in the same boat, but because netcode is always a challenge in every game.   Implementing something like War Tribes, though...  That's using existing systems and capabilities, so you'd expect something like that in just one sprint cycle, maybe two.
  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 666
    BruceYee said:
    That transparency crowdfunded titles were supposed to provide ended up being just a sales gimmick. CU provides information in detail about what's being worked on while this game puts out like you said "info to get you to buy". At this point they seem to be doing what Albion did and hold the game in extended development just to collect money from curious people.
    That's definitely not true.  Anyone with any software development experience can follow along with precisely what's happening on most of these projects.   Granted, not all of them, but you get an unprecedented view into the development of many of them.  Shroud of the Avatar was actually posting the SCRUM notes, and Crowfall devs have been very open about what they're working on at any given moment.  Compared to games in other models, you get nothing like that.   Do you know what new systems were implemented on Cyberpunk 2077?  Do you know what slipped in their development schedule?  I bet you don't.  There are also several MMOs in development by large studios that you don't even know about yet.

    Maybe look at New World.   Do you know what new mobs they're implementing or how they're changing the crafting system after the recent alpha?  I bet you don't.

    So no, these crowdfunded games are infinitely more open about what they're doing and where they're at than traditional development.
  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 666
    blamo2000 said:
    I don't want solid dates.  I just want easily to find information on when I should check back.  If that changes, I don't care. Just let me know.  Work on your game until its done.  Just don't waste my time, which seems to be their whole shtick.  

    And they most certainly put out information regarding a soft release.  This is factual, not disputable.  If it wasn't for that post, I would have never bothered checking, and checking, and rechecking, and rechecking, and trying to find what the fuck is going on release-wise.  

    The post was on this site, either earlish 2018 or possibly 2017.  


    THAT is an incredibly good point.   That's a valid criticism and I'll be sure to take it back to the devs, if they haven't already seen it.   It's a very good ask to want some more clear indication of where the game is at and when you should install it to take a look.

    The one problem is that there will be some subjectivity there and you can't get around that.  What's ready for me, may not be what's ready for you.   I'm not sure the best answer for that problem, but definitely think it's a very smart idea for them (and other devs) to spend time thinking about it.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    As I've previously stated I'm reserving my cynical outlook of ArtCraft until late 2019. 

    They did push back their soft launch date previously, but they've also shown how their improvements and features are being added to an actual game. My fears are mainly about the time table, and quality/feel/look of combat. I'm also worried about the game world, and bestiary.

    I think folks who don't follow the dev cycle should understand something; Crowfall will have more in common with Albion Online than it does a traditional MMORPG. It's PVP centric, with risky gathering, and crafting. 

    The sentiments being tossed at this game, and others that try this whole Alpha/Beta/Early Access garbage proves once again... developers need to STFU about their projects until they're done and ready to be marketed to the public.
    Red_Thomas
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Arkade99Arkade99 Member RarePosts: 535
    Pyuk said:
    I don't get why anyone in game development would ever want to make their own version of Shadowbane. There's a reason it failed way back when, and trying to redo it is mind boggling idiotic, imo. Clunky, gank fest, impossible to balance PvP is not a great bullet point to put on the box of a new game. And this has been in development for almost as long as that other vapor-ware, pyramid scheme, Star Citizen. It's in the same category as Shroud of the Bunghole-star, even though that "shipped." Pyramid scheme of a clunky, outdated and poorly designed game from a crazy has-been, but with koolaid drinking customers who keep throwing money at it in order to keep their master's dream alive. They should change their donation names to Suckers instead of Founders. IMO.
    Star Citizen's kickstarter was in October-November 2012. Crowfall's kickstarter was in February-March 2015. That's a difference of 28 months. I wouldn't call that almost as long. We're just over 4 years for Crowfall. That isn't a long time by industry standards.

    Regarding crowdfunding, you're wrong there too. 

    https://crowfall.com/en-US/funding

    Crowfall has raised almost 25.6 mil, but only 5.5 mil of that has come from crowdfunding. The rest has come from outside investors and licensing. Star Citizen has gotten a ridiculous amount of money from crowdfunding. There really is no comparison. As someone who has actually invested money in the game (apart from crowdfunding), I get monthly updates on the financials, and I can tell you that the money they are bringing in each month from crowdfunding is a drop in the bucket compared to what SC is doing.

    Shadowbane wasn't perfect, but it did a lot of things well. The idea is to capture what it did well while fixing the things it did not. 

    If PvP games aren't your thing, that's fine, but making a bunch of assumption about a game for which you have done little to no research doesn't add anything to the conversation.
    KajidourdenFlyByKnightRed_ThomasJamesGoblin
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,022
    blamo2000 said:
    That's not what they said.  It was supposed to go into the soft release in 2018 (late fall I was told).  Since then I've checked every month or so, and the soft release was just a patch or two away.  No solid info, just hints and cryptic statements meant to get people to buy.  I've never had a harder time trying to find solid information or even big clues.  I've never had to read through so many forum posts trying to find a hint of something solid, and it was always almost.  
    Could you cite that, please?  I've probably missed it, but I don't remember anything about a soft release.  Every conversation I've had with them has been "pre-alpha" and "alpha to start later 2019."   Granted, I think they did originally target late 2018 for alpha, but schedules slip.   You should never take the initial timeline to be gospel.

    The better measurement would be to check the list of features they promised and them look at how fast you see them roll out.   You also have to consider the technical challenges and weight that, too.   For instance, the ad-hoc world generation was a new tech.  They were going to need a little extra time to figure that out.   Combat was in the same boat, but because netcode is always a challenge in every game.   Implementing something like War Tribes, though...  That's using existing systems and capabilities, so you'd expect something like that in just one sprint cycle, maybe two.
    https://massivelyop.com/2018/06/16/crowfall-delays-again-soft-launch-is-not-going-to-happen-by-the-end-of-this-year/
    JamesGoblinblamo2000

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 666
    edited May 2019
    Kyleran said:
    Not really what I was talking about, but it'll work.   I don't think I've heard anyone at ACE use that expression and it's a little odd that the article didn't attribute it to anyone in particular.   But it kind of goes back to the question of what is a soft launch? 

    I'm not sure what they would mean by that.  It's more of a commercial term than a game term.  I guess in game terms, that'd be either an alpha or a beta.   ACE folks would hate me for saying it, but I kind of think they're in alpha now, though they definitely don't call it that.

    Either way, a 15-25% slip in schedule isn't uncommon, especially in video games.  I don't think I could really find a lot of fault with a schedule slippage.   It's just too common.

    But his point about some sort of indication for when you should log back in to check the game out is very well made.   You might even think about it a bit and try to suggest what that might look like.    What sort of things are you wanting in the game when you log in to feel like it's the right time?   I mean, if you want everything perfect, then that's called launch and that's what you'd wait for them to announce, so I'm guessing you're looking for something else.

    What key milestones matter to you?
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    I'm trying to figure out which flip-flops more, Crowfall or this fish:
    blamo2000
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,075
    They wrote about their soft launch strategy back in summer 2016. Essentially it was a persistent mvp but the blog is no longer available.

    We're on track for soft launch at the end of the year.
    30 may 2017


    If you are on track for a soft launch within 7 months and 24 months later you still haven't released its not a small slip in your schedule, your team just never told you exactly how far behind on schedule you were.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddTbNKWw7Zs

    KyleranJamesGoblinblamo2000
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    We can talk about delays and schedules all day but really all I care about is the game being good.  It could wait 5 more years and I wouldn't care if it turns out to be great.  

    I didn't invest/back the game and then set a stop-watch, I have a life to live outside that.
    JamesGoblin
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,022
    edited June 2019
    Kyleran said:
    Not really what I was talking about, but it'll work.   I don't think I've heard anyone at ACE use that expression and it's a little odd that the article didn't attribute it to anyone in particular.   But it kind of goes back to the question of what is a soft launch? 

    I'm not sure what they would mean by that.  It's more of a commercial term than a game term.  I guess in game terms, that'd be either an alpha or a beta.   ACE folks would hate me for saying it, but I kind of think they're in alpha now, though they definitely don't call it that.

    Either way, a 15-25% slip in schedule isn't uncommon, especially in video games.  I don't think I could really find a lot of fault with a schedule slippage.   It's just too common.

    OK Red, you are rapidly moving from "investor" to "shill", I find your claims a bit unbelievable, soft launch has been very commonly used by the Crowfail team for quite some time.

    What is softlaunch in CF's world, jtoddcoleman  clarified it back in May, 2018 as: "In our parlance, soft launch means 'the game is ready for release, we're turning on persistence and we're not going to wipe again.'  I hesitate to use the word "done" only because no MMO is ever "done", so I think ready for release is probably better.  "Ready for release", however, isn't the same as "Ready to market". "

    Feel free to read the rest of the weasel word explanation about the "Commercial Launch" at:


    As for the schedule slipping 15-25%, again you are being either obtuse or disingenuous, the promise dates are being missed by a factor of three to five times over  as the original Alpha promise date for the core features the Kickstarter FAQ page was:

    "Alpha testing for certain features of the core module will begin at the end of Summer, 2015. We expect to be testing new features and content on a quarterly basis."


    As mentioned, soft launch has been pushed back from 2017, to 2018, to 2019 or beyond, since there is no confirmed date for it at present.

    You did it before with SotA, and now I see the same pattern with Crowfall, quit soft peddling the failures to date, they are quite real, and one thing we harbingers do is keep very accurate track of what has been said or promised previously.

    I'd rather hear from @JamesGoblin, while a self avowed fan he maintains a level of honesty in his conversations about the team and this game. 






    JamesGoblinShaighblamo2000

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    blamo2000 said:
    You didn't find it simply because it doesn't exist; I agree that we should ideally have solid dates and companies respecting them but it never works that way in reality,well maybe it does in ice cream industry. 
    I don't want solid dates.  I just want easily to find information on when I should check back.  If that changes, I don't care. Just let me know.  Work on your game until its done.  Just don't waste my time, which seems to be their whole shtick.  

    And they most certainly put out information regarding a soft release.  This is factual, not disputable.  If it wasn't for that post, I would have never bothered checking, and checking, and rechecking, and rechecking, and trying to find what the fuck is going on release-wise.  

    The post was on this site, either earlish 2018 or possibly 2017.  


    But I am not denying it, furthermore I already gave you a kind of "calendar of Crowfall delays" since 2015 (the part of my previous that you cut off in the quote). It's the reason I prefer my info "mixed" rather than only official: from here to various reddits, Youtube, Crowfall forums and Discord, SEC filings...hell, I even read MassivelyOP! One of the most important sources is good old reading between the lines of the official updates.

    If you don't trust my estimates, I'm afraid the official ones will be much more optimistic = off the mark. Of course, feel free to criticize them for that, but if you actually want the data you have it here; And I'll be glad to add and clarify whatever you want.

    Red_Thomas said:
    I hope these pics of refineries are from an upcoming update, we had lots of fillers recently. Did you talk with them about (at least rough estimates of) when the first caravans will hit the test servers?
    They tend to play the specifics of when things are coming out pretty close to the vest, so I don't have specific dates.   Since refineries and caravans are complimentary systems, I'd expect them out at the same time.  I also know they're specifically working on them right now.   In the past, new systems have rolled out in about 1-2 months after I'd noticed active effort, so think that'd be a good estimate.
    OK, thanks for the info.

    PS My first impulse was to write a textwall trying to guess the dynamics of grind,crafting,factories,caravans etc. "against" 24/7 pvp and inventory loot. The easiest thing to do - and the favorite sport of some folks aroundhere - would be to find 1001 reason why it'll all go horribly wrong; otherwise there is too much speculation for my taste, especially this early (beta/launch population? final state of the engine? connected with server+zone caps etc.).So instead I asked a simple question. 

    Kyleran said:
    I'd rather hear from @JamesGoblin
    Hmm allright now that you summoned me...I don't have much to add, but maybe this little story: Back in mid-2016 I played a kind of game with another big Crowfall & Camelot Unchained fan; we are in Twitch chat and it is more and more clear that Crowfall won't launch "this December", while Camelot already broke their initial deadlines.

    We were basically trying to justify, or at least define our attitudes towards the typical ethics of "big business" and advertising especially when "our guys" are doing it. Long story short, our chat quickly devolved into a comical competition of who will write the most dreadful,mean soapbox rant against "kickstarter scammers" and "incompetence" of both games, spiced up with "vapourware","disinformation","broken deadlines,betrayed trust",anticipating "suing and legal action" and all that.

    Now, if you think you saw people writing bad stuff about CU/CF...you saw nothing, because it's 100 times worse when done by someone who is much closer to the project and actually knows what he's talking about..a kind of an angry-ex on steroids!

    This story has no happyending or any kind of point, I didn't become better person after that. Just a moment of fun which I suddenly remembered for some strange reason...
    Shaigh
     W...aaagh?
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,655
    Fine then.  Crowfall will be released before next February 30.  Mark it on your calendar.
    JamesGoblin
  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 666
    OK, thanks for the info.

    PS My first impulse was to write a textwall trying to guess the dynamics of grind,crafting,factories,caravans etc. "against" 24/7 pvp and inventory loot. The easiest thing to do - and the favorite sport of some folks aroundhere - would be to find 1001 reason why it'll all go horribly wrong; otherwise there is too much speculation for my taste, especially this early (beta/launch population? final state of the engine? connected with server+zone caps etc.).So instead I asked a simple question. 

    I'd find it interesting.  =)   But then, I'm a little weird in that I generally find in-game economies fascinating.

    Keep in mind that was a total SWAG, btw.  I have no real dates from any devs.  I'm just basing it on what I've seen in the past and about how hard I think it'd be to implement something like that based on rough guess of how I think they might do it.

    JamesGoblin
  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 666
    Kyleran said:
    OK Red, you are rapidly moving from "investor" to "shill", I find your claims a bit unbelievable, soft launch has been very commonly used by the Crowfail team for quite some time.


    No need for name-calling.   I said I hadn't really heard anyone on the team use the term.  They may have and I just don't remember.   It's pretty possible they used it early on (and it seems they did) and I just didn't remember.   Terms change all the time.  Remember how Star Citizen and Shroud of the Avatar (and Crowfall for that matter) tried so hard to not say they were MMOs, even though that's clearly what they are?   Language changes....

    But either way, it's still not some massive conspiracy.  The way it appears they meant soft launch in the above is in the commercial sense, which is that you have a full product and are just delaying the marketing campaign a bit.  Okay.   If that's true, that was a pretty aggressive plan, and it was pretty clear they weren't going to make it when it took them six-months longer than expected to nail down combat.

    CF's Kickstarter was in 2015, they'd been in development for a year before that, I believe.  They projected launch in late 2018 and it's slipped to 2019, maybe early 2020.   48 month projected and they're off by 12 months...    12/48 = 25% slip if you assume they only worked on it for a year before hand, and I'm pretty sure it was at least that long based on what I saw a couple months before they kicked off the campaign.    ....so yeah.   I think it's probably about a 15-20% slip realistically, and that's unbelievably common in the industry.  You just don't see it when the game wasn't crowdfunded because you don't know how long the clock's been running by the time you hear about it.

    For instance, how long have you known about Amazon's New World?    Want to take a guess on when development started?
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,071
    Thanks to the people posting the soft release info.  

    Again, I'm not looking for exact dates - but in one of those soft release posts (it could be the 2016 one, I know it was a long time ago but time gets weird when you have kids and pass 40 ((it all jumbles together)).  

    I don't mind games being pushed back.  With all the games and mmos coming out that are just garbage to me, I ignore most games.  Even if a game could be interesting I ignore it until there is release information.  Once there is, my only expectation is to be updated and for the updated information to be easily available.  

    That's it.  I am not asking to be treated like a special snowflake.  I'm not being unreasonable.  I just want to know when to check back, and when I do check back I don't want to spend 30 minutes to an hour wasting my time doing forum searching for non existent information.  Right or wrong, if you agree or not, what it does is make me angry and resentful towards the game and its makers.  This makes me less likely to want to play the game.  Once my level of butthurt surpasses my interest, why would I spend money or further time on whatever caused the butthurt?  Its simple buttonomics.  
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,071


    What key milestones matter to you?

    The only one that ever matters to most people my age that still play mmorpgs - when will there be a permanent no-wipe server where my play time isn't wasted?   Call it live, soft release, release, hard release, open beta, the end of EA, whatever.  
  • Red_ThomasRed_Thomas Member RarePosts: 666
    blamo2000 said:

    The only one that ever matters to most people my age that still play mmorpgs - when will there be a permanent no-wipe server where my play time isn't wasted?   Call it live, soft release, release, hard release, open beta, the end of EA, whatever.  
    Fair enough.   I haven't heard for sure what they plan on that date being, but I'll definitely be talking about it here as soon as they do.  I'm sure you'll also see something on their website about it.
    blamo2000
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,827
    I'm interested in this game and I don't mind waiting. But I'm not a backer either.

    That's it - I just wanted to post some mild supportive comment.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

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  • Binny45Binny45 Member UncommonPosts: 521
    This game was fun. Then the devs in their infinite wisdom started slapping grind after grind into the game. Don't even get me started on their trek towards "realism". Fire spewing martial Arts cows that drop necromancer goggles!?!? Yeah, totally realistic. Crafting was enough of a chore before, now it's so that crafters don't even log in anymore. Mobs are crazy hard and they're the only way to level now. Get a group you say? Would love to if only people were around to group with! It's almost like there's an unofficial player strike. People are waiting for Snowfall to turn back on the fun and turn down the suck.

    image

  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,140
    blamo2000 said:
    Crowfall is a game I used to be interested in. I would have bought it and played but for two things.

    1) Every single time I tried to find release estimates on it, I had to waste significant amounts of time to find nothing. Over time the annoyance of this adds up to resentment, anger, and dislike.

    2) WoW classic will be the next game I play and I know I like it so it is a no brainer, no risk guaranteed thing. When I do get bored of it or want to try something new either Ship of Heroes or City of Titan should be out, and when I get done with one of those the other will be out, and when done with that it will be back to classic or something else that is an mmorpg.

    This last year or two has been a dead time for me and really was the perfect time for anything interesting off the beaten path to come out. I think a lot of devs are going to kick themselves for not releasing anything when mmorpg players had absolutely nothing and were willing to try interesting non-traditional mmos with rpg elements out of desperation for anything.
    I don't see how either of those items have anything to do with the game itself. First your angry because they wont commit to a release date clearly wanting to make sure the game is ready before they announce one. And second you like WoW. I was expecting something more like.... I dont like the graphics. I dont like the combat system. I dont like the crafting system PvP is not for me. etc. You know, things relating to actual gameplay.
    JamesGoblin
  • Binny45Binny45 Member UncommonPosts: 521
    How much did they pay you to write this article? Crowfall at the moment is a steaming pile of donkey dung. The most fun I have with the game these days is logging in and spending my points. Yes, that's the most fun I have right now. Can't fight anything any more, mobs are ridiculously overpowered (See kung fu, fire using cows). Can't craft anything decent anymore, because you have to go camp rare drops just to make decent low level armor and weapons now. Can't even harvest anymore because no one logs in anymore so my supply of decent rune tools has dried up. The devs really dropped the ball with the last series of patches. The players are telling them what needs fixing and they keep ignoring us, instead working on something completely unrelated to the issues at hand. The only reason I'm so passionate about this is because I was having fun. Yeah the game was far from polished, but I could actually play the game with my guildies. Now? Hardly anyone can be bothered to even log in. Last night before I went to bed I saw 19 people on the North America server and 23 on the EU server. The numbers speak for themselves.

    image

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