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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,600
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Tw-
    You seemed to miss the point. I even posed you these questions;

    "Is there really no way for you to look at unique mechanics and challenges that some raids have posed, and not see how similar challenges can be extracted an used in entirely different situations? Are you only able to fathom things as long as it remains within an instanced environment with a few people headbutting it?"

    As a direct highlight of the fact that even with the scope of the standard MMS sans twitch of Dark Souls style combat, the same kind of mechanics that introduced challenge to a raid can be applied to other forms of gameplay.

    You asked for an example of hard solo content, Why are you complaining about hard solo content being hard solo content after asking for an example of it? What did you want me to tell you hard solo content was Happy Carebear Land where people get loot and hugs for free? Hell, even in the suggestions made we have not espoused that players should get everything, hence the point of asking for challenging content outside the narrow scope of just raids and "raids lite".

    Additionally, raids "lock" a lot of players out, so what are you trying to gripe about there? You are literally using the reason raids are flawed as your attempted defense for them right now.

    And why would it need to be grindy if the skill ceiling is itself the offsetting factor? How do you reach the conclusion that a Dark Souls player puts less effort in than a person in a raid? How can you so readily belittle the time it takes to learn individual boss moves, stages, different weapon and armor moves and when to dodge or block where, etc-etc?

    No, there is plenty of effort there already, and being told to do a specific routine by another player in a raid hardly requires any effort especially compared to what you are putting in there for DS.

    You want grindy solo quests, there's dailies, and they yet again miss the point of having interesting or challenging content to be rewarded by outside of raids. That's just giving you a cookie for headbutting a wall 500 times.

    This is why, as @VengeSunsoar and @Ungood point out, most players simply leave after a time. Because instead of offering variety in play you instead take your line of logic and produce a game where the only challenge, the only thing to look forward to, is this one type of content only a few people have any interest in.

    I'd be concerned to work with anyone that thinks your comments are insightful.
    Put some logic to your argument next time please.
    Do you play wow?  I played wow back in the days.  I think it is literally impossible to design hard solo content for wow because it don't use action combat.  I don't know if anything was changed to wow's combat system.

    I think you have a fair point.  I run dungeon solo in GW2 which is designed for 5 man.  It is very fun.  I always wonder why don't developer put some effort in making challenging solo dungeons.

    I talk about grind because difficult don't mean time consuming.  Even if they put in dark soul type of action combat, people can beat it quickly and quit the game.  There probably need some mechanic to time lock the content(only allow to do once a day or once a week).

    Lastly the point I'm trying to make is best gear should absolutely be raid locked in "WoW".  I'm not talking about other games, I'm only talking about WoW.  Because for that specific game, defeating the hardest raid boss is the most iconic feat and requires the most effort.  Me personally, I just think it varies game to game.  


    The point you're trying to make is a point that's been addressed numerous times over then, and the subject of the original post suggesting that a game does not have a singular "best gear" and instead more specialized gear that focuses on respective gameplay paths.

    Not only that, but it's submission to a fault of the game rather than a perception that the game needs to improve it's systems.

    And It's no more impossible to make hard solo content than it is to make hard raid content. Many of the elements that goes into creating unique challenges for them have no unique trait forcing them to only work in a group or instanced environment.

    Also while true, difficult does not inherently mean time consuming, it's more about being engaging. Something worth spending your time on, learning, and replaying to master.

    Honestly, if you want a deeper suggestion around making questing something to engage players longer I have a different suggestion around it than simply trying to pose difficulty scaling.
    The irony is all the themepark haters calling wow solo only game...  And you are complaining wow don't provide enough solo content to keep people playing.

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    AAAMEOW said:
    The irony is all the themepark haters calling wow solo only game...  And you are complaining wow don't provide enough solo content to keep people playing.

    Don't think at any point I have focused on solo content. I have only responded to your questions regarding solo content. That was just one of multiple avenues for alternatives to raids that's been discussed.

    So I fail to see the irony there since that's never been my complaint. Perhaps you should jump back a few pages to see the original discussions instead of making things up.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,600
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    The irony is all the themepark haters calling wow solo only game...  And you are complaining wow don't provide enough solo content to keep people playing.

    Don't think at any point I have focused on solo content. I have only responded to your questions regarding solo content. That was just one of multiple avenues for alternatives to raids that's been discussed.

    So I fail to see the irony there since that's never been my complaint. Perhaps you should jump back a few pages to see the original discussions instead of making things up.
    I'm just saying many people keep calling wow or other generic themepark game a "solo game".  Because the leveling phase are mostly solo.  So they complain about it.  

    So I tell them wow is pretty much a group only focused game.  Because all the endgame require a group to do.  

    You should be there arguing with them.  Maybe the next time I saw such thread I'll pm you.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 

    As for Limnic's reply to my post; it was all over the place, Limnic seems to have raided and liked the experience, but I am not even sure of that. Your post left me puzzled at what your problem with raids is, it seems to resolve around this concept of elite players. Yet you mention that you have played raids in much the way I do. Players who consider themselves some sort of elite crew do not bother me, why do they bother you?
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825
    Just to say that Jelly (Jello to you lot) must have cream, one cannot skimp when crafting and take the butterfly approach of missing out ingredients. At the end of your meal, leaving out cream for your desert will leave you feeling that had you taken the time to raid the fridge for some, it would taste so much better. :D
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    edited June 2019
    Scot said:
    But the answer to "why should raid be the best activity" is not just its the hardest, it is the social activity which again seems to be lost on some of our posters. I would suggest that maybe some posters have raided in the wrong sort of guild for them? I have always been in guilds where community and roleplaying are put before elite nonsense. Maybe that's why they think this is all about being elite? Presuming they even play in a guild that is. Raids are a social event, relaxed and when I think sometimes there were teenagers who should not of been playing according to the games rules, it was a family rated event.

    Perhaps that's what is at the bottom of this, if you see raids as stressful events and have no other experience of good grouping then it is no wonder you seek an alterative. This is not the first time I have suggested as a solution to various issues players in MMOs have, find a good guild and the problem is sorted.
    My experience is the latter, not the former. The few (3?) raids (WoW) I've participated in were hectic clusterfucks, with 40 people pretty much doing their own thing going for that killing blow themselves instead of working as a team. These raids were before the "Telegraphing Bosses" became a thing. One of them was after that "feature" was implemented. I also was a healer :)

    The EQ raids I've watched on YouTube can be terrible affairs where, depending on the player making the video, you NEVER see the boss as they hug the nearest corner, out of sight, and buff/heal other players as they get near them. I understand it is part of the mechanics and strategy, but why fight a big bad boss if you can't even see them?

    Small groups (2-8 players) are the prefect size for me. Basically more than that and my small brain gets overloaded with onscreen information :)

    My avoidance of large crowds in real life may factor in here, too :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
     The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    But that's as much a technical challenge as anything, isn't it?  End game isn't so much a dev goal as a practical necessity.

    At some point, the journey reaches a termination point.  If you include endless progression, you either have to keep churning out endless content, or you have to scale existing content (and repeat it over and over), which begins to make the endless progression seem rather superfluous.

    Devs can't create quality content at a fast enough rate to make any gaming experience "endless" without extreme repetition or unreasonable amounts of personnel needed to keep a flow of GM-created content going.  The repetitive content at the end becomes the "endgame."
    Could this be another reason to slow down the leveling process, instead of just "MORE MONEY!"? Of course devs can't keep up when max level is reached in a matter of weeks :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    There are some interesting thoughts about "end game" and possible solutions. Unfortunately, none of them fit into the formula that makes today's MMOs: Fast leveling; Raiding; Gear Treadmill; Dailies.

    It will take some company with an actual desire to make a "fun game" to even try any of these out, even if they've been done and well received before.
    gunklackerScot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Tw-
    You seemed to miss the point. I even posed you these questions;

    "Is there really no way for you to look at unique mechanics and challenges that some raids have posed, and not see how similar challenges can be extracted an used in entirely different situations? Are you only able to fathom things as long as it remains within an instanced environment with a few people headbutting it?"

    As a direct highlight of the fact that even with the scope of the standard MMS sans twitch of Dark Souls style combat, the same kind of mechanics that introduced challenge to a raid can be applied to other forms of gameplay.

    You asked for an example of hard solo content, Why are you complaining about hard solo content being hard solo content after asking for an example of it? What did you want me to tell you hard solo content was Happy Carebear Land where people get loot and hugs for free? Hell, even in the suggestions made we have not espoused that players should get everything, hence the point of asking for challenging content outside the narrow scope of just raids and "raids lite".

    Additionally, raids "lock" a lot of players out, so what are you trying to gripe about there? You are literally using the reason raids are flawed as your attempted defense for them right now.

    And why would it need to be grindy if the skill ceiling is itself the offsetting factor? How do you reach the conclusion that a Dark Souls player puts less effort in than a person in a raid? How can you so readily belittle the time it takes to learn individual boss moves, stages, different weapon and armor moves and when to dodge or block where, etc-etc?

    No, there is plenty of effort there already, and being told to do a specific routine by another player in a raid hardly requires any effort especially compared to what you are putting in there for DS.

    You want grindy solo quests, there's dailies, and they yet again miss the point of having interesting or challenging content to be rewarded by outside of raids. That's just giving you a cookie for headbutting a wall 500 times.

    This is why, as @VengeSunsoar and @Ungood point out, most players simply leave after a time. Because instead of offering variety in play you instead take your line of logic and produce a game where the only challenge, the only thing to look forward to, is this one type of content only a few people have any interest in.

    I'd be concerned to work with anyone that thinks your comments are insightful.
    Put some logic to your argument next time please.
    Do you play wow?  I played wow back in the days.  I think it is literally impossible to design hard solo content for wow because it don't use action combat.  I don't know if anything was changed to wow's combat system.

    I think you have a fair point.  I run dungeon solo in GW2 which is designed for 5 man.  It is very fun.  I always wonder why don't developer put some effort in making challenging solo dungeons.

    I talk about grind because difficult don't mean time consuming.  Even if they put in dark soul type of action combat, people can beat it quickly and quit the game.  There probably need some mechanic to time lock the content(only allow to do once a day or once a week).

    Lastly the point I'm trying to make is best gear should absolutely be raid locked in "WoW".  I'm not talking about other games, I'm only talking about WoW.  Because for that specific game, defeating the hardest raid boss is the most iconic feat and requires the most effort.  Me personally, I just think it varies game to game.  


    The point you're trying to make is a point that's been addressed numerous times over then, and the subject of the original post suggesting that a game does not have a singular "best gear" and instead more specialized gear that focuses on respective gameplay paths.

    Not only that, but it's submission to a fault of the game rather than a perception that the game needs to improve it's systems.

    And It's no more impossible to make hard solo content than it is to make hard raid content. Many of the elements that goes into creating unique challenges for them have no unique trait forcing them to only work in a group or instanced environment.

    Also while true, difficult does not inherently mean time consuming, it's more about being engaging. Something worth spending your time on, learning, and replaying to master.

    Honestly, if you want a deeper suggestion around making questing something to engage players longer I have a different suggestion around it than simply trying to pose difficulty scaling.
    The irony is all the themepark haters calling wow solo only game...  And you are complaining wow don't provide enough solo content to keep people playing.

    Solo combat does not mean solo only game.  UO/SWG were solo combat games yet where interdependent and social.    
    Steelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    Vermillion_RaventhalAlBQuirkySteelhelm
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    AAAMEOW said:
    Why do you want gear simply because other people have better gear.  

    I played vanilla wow.  There are times I have been raiding and there are times I didn't.  I never care if raider have better gear when I don't raid.  I just enjoy the content without ever doing raid.  You usually have ways to progress like having multiple character, collecting recipes, making money etc.  And there are gear progression.  I can get better gear simply by doing dailys which take a few minute a day.  Just enjoy yourself and stop caring other people have better stuff than yourself.

    Hummmmmmm .... Why don't people who play high fantasy games where they can be gods among mortals just content themselves with second rate shit?

    Let's play that another way.. why can't you just do the raids for the fun and not get gear from them? Why can't you just be happy with that?
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825
    edited June 2019
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?

    We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.

    Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:

    "Raiders should get the best materials.
    Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc.
    Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.

    And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."

    Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare. :)

    AlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,600
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Why do you want gear simply because other people have better gear.  

    I played vanilla wow.  There are times I have been raiding and there are times I didn't.  I never care if raider have better gear when I don't raid.  I just enjoy the content without ever doing raid.  You usually have ways to progress like having multiple character, collecting recipes, making money etc.  And there are gear progression.  I can get better gear simply by doing dailys which take a few minute a day.  Just enjoy yourself and stop caring other people have better stuff than yourself.

    Hummmmmmm .... Why don't people who play high fantasy games where they can be gods among mortals just content themselves with second rate shit?

    Let's play that another way.. why can't you just do the raids for the fun and not get gear from them? Why can't you just be happy with that?
    The whole point is progression.  There need to be gear progression so people can't skip all the content and kill the lich king right after the expansion is out.  I don't really care that much about the gear itself.  

    I play GW2 which don't have gear progression only cosmetic.  I'm quite shocked that many people care about cosmetic because I don't.  I just play.  That being said, I dont' think you are odd because many people care about gear even if it is just cosmetic.  

    I personally do like gear progression for all the content I do.  I just don't understand why people simply "have to have the best gear".  I'm perfectly fine being able to keep upgrading my gear, but I don't necessary need to have the best gear in the game.  
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AAAMEOW said:
    I'm just saying-
    I shouldn't have to be any where due to a false claim you made up. 
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?

    We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.

    Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:

    "Raiders should get the best materials.
    Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc.
    Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.

    And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."

    Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare. :)

    Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.

    If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.

    Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    Scot said:
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 

    As for Limnic's reply to my post; it was all over the place, Limnic seems to have raided and liked the experience, but I am not even sure of that. Your post left me puzzled at what your problem with raids is, it seems to resolve around this concept of elite players. Yet you mention that you have played raids in much the way I do. Players who consider themselves some sort of elite crew do not bother me, why do they bother you?
    How in the hell could you extract "elite players" or that I like raiding when I expressly said I do not care for raiding nor find it interesting, and only play them because of friends?

    When I start off a sentence in that post saying what I perceive the problem to be, perhaps that's what I think the problem is, not some random insert from you, no?

    You'd have an easier time understanding it if you would stop making assumptions and just read it for what it is. This is the same problem you've had this entire thread. Not just on my comments but with anyone you've generally responded to. It's like everything goes through a translation and screening filter.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    AAAMEOW said:
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Why do you want gear simply because other people have better gear.  

    I played vanilla wow.  There are times I have been raiding and there are times I didn't.  I never care if raider have better gear when I don't raid.  I just enjoy the content without ever doing raid.  You usually have ways to progress like having multiple character, collecting recipes, making money etc.  And there are gear progression.  I can get better gear simply by doing dailys which take a few minute a day.  Just enjoy yourself and stop caring other people have better stuff than yourself.

    Hummmmmmm .... Why don't people who play high fantasy games where they can be gods among mortals just content themselves with second rate shit?

    Let's play that another way.. why can't you just do the raids for the fun and not get gear from them? Why can't you just be happy with that?
    The whole point is progression.  
    I think there is a chance he might still be salavabe to the side of logic.

    Maybe not.. 
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?

    We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.

    Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:

    "Raiders should get the best materials.
    Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc.
    Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.

    And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."

    Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare. :)

    Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.

    If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.

    Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.

    I do find it quirky he latches onto a suggestion that was discussed as far back as page 8 or 9 and doesn't look to address the subject that while yes it makes crafting have a one-off value for endgame gearing, it fails to bring any value to the rest of the game or game world.

    Sort of the rub there. More of a game needs to be relevant if more players want to be retained, and the zealous focus on preserving raids ironically runs counter to preserving a game's community in the long term.
    Ungood
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825
    edited June 2019
    Ungood said:

    Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.

    If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.

    Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.

    You are not comparing like for like, it has to be a 1000 hours of raiding for a 1000 hours of some other gameplay which can't take years longer its the same 1000 hours. We would play the same amount each week. Given that scenario, to me you are choosing to play easier content that does not deserve as big a reward, but having said that the reward track might be totally different say cosmetic outfits. Not sure how you would compare such rewards as for one player that's great for another it would be "jack diddly".


    Limnic said:

    How in the hell could you extract "elite players" or that I like raiding when I expressly said I do not care for raiding nor find it interesting, and only play them because of friends?

    When I start off a sentence in that post saying what I perceive the problem to be, perhaps that's what I think the problem is, not some random insert from you, no?

    You'd have an easier time understanding it if you would stop making assumptions and just read it for what it is. This is the same problem you've had this entire thread. Not just on my comments but with anyone you've generally responded to. It's like everything goes through a translation and screening filter.

    As I said that post was the hardest one to get any sense out of the circular arguments that it made, not surprising I had to make some assumptions. If you don’t want to raid, but do so because it is with friends, what game play do you want to do instead as a group? Your primary suggestions resolve around tough top level solo quests, not grouping. Do you only group for friends? If so why not stick to solo RPG’s and chat to mates on Discord, some players I know do this, it is not a facile suggestion. On the other hand if this is about being with friends in game, surely you are grouping?

    gunklackerConstantineMerusDhamon99
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    Scot said:

    As-

    When?

    When has my suggestions focused on top level solo anything?

    When that was the only stuff you asked about so that's what I responded to?

    Did you forget the prior conversations that brought up crafting, world exploration, public events, etc?

    And the fact you claim circular arguments about a post that each paragraph hits separate points, I don't even know how to comprehend other than assume myself that you didn't even read it and just started playing ad-lib.

    How do you take one component, that I only raid because of friends, and forget the direct following part where I denote that "But as I just stated in this post, if the people I raid with are the only people I play with, then it defeats the purpose of being an MMO for me because the community has suddenly shrunk down to something that'd fit on a generic lobby shooter."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid/p10#2UmMsuRiCV6XdHsK.99

    How do you take me saying "MMOs are about community and collaborative user experiences to me."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid/p10#2UmMsuRiCV6XdHsK.99

    ...and interpret that as a demand for solo content? 

    How do you forget when we have brought up a couple different points on crafting now?
    And we've talked about zone exploration.
    And we've talked about world event/activities.
    And we've talked about how things could be more interdependent to drive value in the extended community.

    But the only thing YOU focus on, the only thing YOU ask about, is bloody solo content. When I/we respond to those questions, suddenly that's the only thing we're about? 

    Don't bullshit.

    And you seemed to do the same thing to @Ungood just now too. Why would you have to play the same amount each week? If someone plays the game more slowly, playing content outside raiding, they are still cumulatively going to be investing a comparable amount of time, just spread itself over a longer amount of time.

    You also make the same assumption as ever about saying one type of content is not and cannot be just as challenging as another type of content.

    The problem with every post you've been making is this. You have an obvious picture in your mind, and every suggestion or commentary made that doesn't match that, you immediately discard. If that leaves nothing to react to, you then make something up.

    What is the point of your posts?
    gunklackerUngood
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    Limnic said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?

    We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.

    Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:

    "Raiders should get the best materials.
    Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc.
    Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.

    And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."

    Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare. :)

    Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.

    If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.

    Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.

    I do find it quirky he latches onto a suggestion that was discussed as far back as page 8 or 9 and doesn't look to address the subject that while yes it makes crafting have a one-off value for endgame gearing, it fails to bring any value to the rest of the game or game world.

    Sort of the rub there. More of a game needs to be relevant if more players want to be retained, and the zealous focus on preserving raids ironically runs counter to preserving a game's community in the long term.
    Actually, my suggestion does address that. First, its not a one-off for endgame gearing since you have item degradation. One of the biuggest faults with crafting is that much stuff stays ingame forever and once the market is saturated the crafting becomes useless. Thats why professions like alchemy in WoW are worth much more, the items are consumed. Hence the item degradation.

    It also brings value to the rest of the game and game world, it is an interdepence between all disciplines (raiding, crafting and exploring in my suggestion) and all are of value to eachother. The problem in MMORPGs with raiding is that the rewards from said raiding are only of value to those who raid and only help them get further. Its a rabbit hole and the deeper you go, the more isolated that little part of the community gets. By breaking that open all groups in the game world have an equal amount of power, influence and usefulness and need for eachother.

    To take it a step further, gear shouldn't be about BiS, it should be about situational BiS. Explorers might need high stealth gear to explore dangerous ruins. Crafters might need a huge durability boost on their gear to increase the chances of not breaking their "Nimble Sword of Death" when making it. Raiders might need frost resistance gear for the tundras but fire resistance gear for a lava lair, think more Monster Hunter and not level range. That way gear can specialise a character and their value/strength and can be of worth to ALL players, not just the top level ones. 

    With all of the above taken into consideration raiding would actually strengthen the entire community, as would crafting, as would exploring. We just need to think outside the box a bit more, we all yell succes and/or failure based on how things have been done up till now, that's what stopping the genre from moving forward in the first place.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    gunklackerVermillion_RaventhalMendelScotIselin
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    lahnmir said:
    Actually, my suggestion does address that. First, its not a one-off for endgame gearing since you have item degradation. One of the biuggest faults with crafting is that much stuff stays ingame forever and once the market is saturated the crafting becomes useless. Thats why professions like alchemy in WoW are worth much more, the items are consumed. Hence the item degradation.

    It also brings value to the rest of the game and game world, it is an interdepence between all disciplines (raiding, crafting and exploring in my suggestion) and all are of value to eachother. The problem in MMORPGs with raiding is that the rewards from said raiding are only of value to those who raid and only help them get further. Its a rabbit hole and the deeper you go, the more isolated that little part of the community gets. By breaking that open all groups in the game world have an equal amount of power, influence and usefulness and need for eachother.

    To take it a step further, gear shouldn't be about BiS, it should be about situational BiS. Explorers might need high stealth gear to explore dangerous ruins. Crafters might need a huge durability boost on their gear to increase the chances of not breaking their "Nimble Sword of Death" when making it. Raiders might need frost resistance gear for the tundras but fire resistance gear for a lava lair, think more Monster Hunter and not level range. That way gear can specialise a character and their value/strength and can be of worth to ALL players, not just the top level ones. 

    With all of the above taken into consideration raiding would actually strengthen the entire community, as would crafting, as would exploring. We just need to think outside the box a bit more, we all yell succes and/or failure based on how things have been done up till now, that's what stopping the genre from moving forward in the first place.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Your suggestion does, his take did not.

    What you just discussed is in line with what I and others have prior suggested in this thread (including the point on BiS gear), and I can refer again back to page 8-9 for this very topic. You'll even find multiple posts of mine discussing the need for such interdependence. 

    I would say your solution does not address it completely either though. Adding item degradation and turning it into a looped sink does help, but it also needs to pan out things like the statement that end-game resources come specifically from raiding. That's the kind of thing that can be much more organically distributed. It suffers from intentional mechanical divisions of roles to force the interdependence on a bit of a blunt level.

    Also have several things that can be offered as addendum to your suggestion.

    1) The random dungeon/raid thing could be greatly expanded on if integrated with another mechanic. Namely, an exploration-driven questing mechanic.

    Basically, instead of static nodes in the world spawning the same sets of mobs and camps and such being static elements, all of these things can be broken down into components that can be randomly seeded into generic nodes distributed across the world.

    When a player is wandering around two things will happen. The game will look at the player's active quest log for what they currently have to do, and the game will look at the local area and it's current probability tables for spawning certain things.

    If something in the quest log lines up, then it will seed a quest related activity into the local area for the player. If it does not, it will generate a "journal" activity, basically a dynamically assembled miniquest associated with the area.

    This means that at any given moment the player can be provided with some kind of activity relevant directly to what they are seeking to do, or relevant to doing something for the region, like discovering a random generated spot for a dungeon or raid.

    2) Gear churn can have two separate factors. Sometimes players may want to retain a specific item for sentimental value. In a system where everything is designed to break, this becomes either impossible, or consuming since you would start banking things out of fear of losing them.

    Instead, it can be integrated with a component based gearing system that allows for players to maintain gear in a rough fashion, as well as maintain and hone gear in a proper fashion, and additionally allows for the formation of unique/legendary gear in a new way related to player achievements instead of strictly loot based gearing/crafting.

    What I mean in this instance is that say someone crafts a sword. That sword would be made of a few sub-components. As that sword wears it will enter a broken state, but that doesn't mean all of it's sub-components are broken. Instead, a player could take a generic sword from a mob, extract one of it's unbroken sub-components, and temporarily "maintain" the sword by hot-swapping the completely broken bit out until they can find someone to either reforge, or craft a new component/sword entirely.

    And this also leads to the other factor of allowing components of items to have longer lifespans, feeding then into another mechanic where achievement and activity tracking on an item can be used to trigger them to randomly "evolve" when they pass a certain threshold. A more natural version of the Fable 3 concept, where if you do enough things, like slay goblins with the sword, it makes the weapon have an increasingly likely chance to gain the "goblin slayer" moniker and an inherent bonus versus goblins. It creates a sort of mid-tier legendary that comes about through the virtue of caring for your gear.

    This also helps feed back into the economy, as it becomes a new source of novel equipment and unique traits, things that exist with at least a basic narrative legacy due to a player's actions to deepen it's relation to the world, and that can then be traded about to others seeking an item with such traits.
    Post edited by Limnic on
    Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    edited June 2019
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:

    Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.

    If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.

    Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.

    You are not comparing like for like, it has to be a 1000 hours of raiding for a 1000 hours of some other gameplay which can't take years longer its the same 1000 hours. We would play the same amount each week. Given that scenario, to me you are choosing to play easier content that does not deserve as big a reward, but having said that the reward track might be totally different say cosmetic outfits. Not sure how you would compare such rewards as for one player that's great for another it would be "jack diddly".
    Let's get something clear here.. you brought up Dailies vs Raids.. don't candy ass out on me now, because it didn't work for you.

    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content. 

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?

    We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.

    Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:

    "Raiders should get the best materials.
    Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc.
    Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.

    And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."

    Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare. :)

    For those that missed this the first time.





    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    lahnmir said:
    Limnic said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?

    We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.

    Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:

    "Raiders should get the best materials.
    Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc.
    Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.

    And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."

    Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare. :)

    Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.

    If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.

    Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.

    I do find it quirky he latches onto a suggestion that was discussed as far back as page 8 or 9 and doesn't look to address the subject that while yes it makes crafting have a one-off value for endgame gearing, it fails to bring any value to the rest of the game or game world.

    Sort of the rub there. More of a game needs to be relevant if more players want to be retained, and the zealous focus on preserving raids ironically runs counter to preserving a game's community in the long term.
    Actually, my suggestion does address that. First, its not a one-off for endgame gearing since you have item degradation. One of the biuggest faults with crafting is that much stuff stays ingame forever and once the market is saturated the crafting becomes useless. Thats why professions like alchemy in WoW are worth much more, the items are consumed. Hence the item degradation.

    It also brings value to the rest of the game and game world, it is an interdepence between all disciplines (raiding, crafting and exploring in my suggestion) and all are of value to eachother. The problem in MMORPGs with raiding is that the rewards from said raiding are only of value to those who raid and only help them get further. Its a rabbit hole and the deeper you go, the more isolated that little part of the community gets. By breaking that open all groups in the game world have an equal amount of power, influence and usefulness and need for eachother.

    To take it a step further, gear shouldn't be about BiS, it should be about situational BiS. Explorers might need high stealth gear to explore dangerous ruins. Crafters might need a huge durability boost on their gear to increase the chances of not breaking their "Nimble Sword of Death" when making it. Raiders might need frost resistance gear for the tundras but fire resistance gear for a lava lair, think more Monster Hunter and not level range. That way gear can specialise a character and their value/strength and can be of worth to ALL players, not just the top level ones. 

    With all of the above taken into consideration raiding would actually strengthen the entire community, as would crafting, as would exploring. We just need to think outside the box a bit more, we all yell succes and/or failure based on how things have been done up till now, that's what stopping the genre from moving forward in the first place.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    This is stuff usually only done in action adventure. You get a fire cloak to go to fire realm.  You need Pegasus boots to go to air realm.  I have said before that themepark would be better off and more creative being MMO Action Adventure. 

    Ungood
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,838
    Age of Wushu dropped recipes and mats for high level PvE. No gear at all. 

    The best gear gear in game was truly made by crafters. Anyone in game could have the best gear.

    hears the thing though. You might have to take out a second mortgage on your house (irl) to buy those recipes if you didn’t get the drop, or if you want the gear made by them. 


    LimnicScot
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
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