Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

17810121316

Comments

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited June 8
     The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    But that's as much a technical challenge as anything, isn't it?  End game isn't so much a dev goal as a practical necessity.

    At some point, the journey reaches a termination point.  If you include endless progression, you either have to keep churning out endless content, or you have to scale existing content (and repeat it over and over), which begins to make the endless progression seem rather superfluous.

    Devs can't create quality content at a fast enough rate to make any gaming experience "endless" without extreme repetition or unreasonable amounts of personnel needed to keep a flow of GM-created content going.  The repetitive content at the end becomes the "endgame."
    MendelAlBQuirky

    image
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,787
    edited June 8
    I think it boils down to this. If only a small percentage like to raid why is raiding the only thing to do so the end game? Why is raiding the only way to get good gear so the end game?

    Having the only means of progressing being the thing that most people don't want to do sounds weird to me.

    Only 1% may beat that hardest raid content but who cares about that if only 10% even want to try.
    Another issue is that raiding has not really progressed since it was created. The idea that 'The Game You Are Playing" Has now reached Part 2  was always a weird thing for me personally. The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    I am all for new ideas VengeSunsoar, I see that if its cracked we could have much better retention in MMOs, but I am not seeing any magic bullets.

    I take Blue Turtle's point about raids not evolving, but how much have MMORPG's evolved? Where they have it is in the wrong direction, too easy, too solo, too small. But yes, raids need something new just like every other aspect does.

    The ESO example (the one that I am supposed to have read before but just saw above) is interesting. But I think the solo and raid gear may be too similar, Limnic is clearly a solo enthusiast, would like to hear what a raider thinks about this system. My concern would be that if the solo questing gear is too close to the raid gear players will start to ask 'why bother to raid'? Not saying you are lying Limnic, but I would like to hear the raider side of the argument as well.

    But the answer to "why should raid be the best activity" is not just its the hardest, it is the social activity which again seems to be lost on some of our posters. I would suggest that maybe some posters have raided in the wrong sort of guild for them? I have always been in guilds where community and roleplaying are put before elite nonsense. Maybe that's why they think this is all about being elite? Presuming they even play in a guild that is. Raids are a social event, relaxed and when I think sometimes there were teenagers who should not of been playing according to the games rules, it was a family rated event.

    Perhaps that's what is at the bottom of this, if you see raids as stressful events and have no other experience of good grouping then it is no wonder you seek an alterative. This is not the first time I have suggested as a solution to various issues players in MMOs have, find a good guild and the problem is sorted.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,835
    edited June 8
    Raiders should get the best materials.
    Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc.
    Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.

    And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    LimnicScotAlBQuirky
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,826
     The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    But that's as much a technical challenge as anything, isn't it?  End game isn't so much a dev goal as a practical necessity.

    At some point, the journey reaches a termination point.  If you include endless progression, you either have to keep churning out endless content, or you have to scale existing content (and repeat it over and over), which begins to make the endless progression seem rather superfluous.

    Devs can't create quality content at a fast enough rate to make any gaming experience "endless" without extreme repetition or unreasonable amounts of personnel needed to keep a flow of GM-created content going.  The repetitive content at the end becomes the "endgame."
    Which is why I think at that point of the game the power for creation should be handed to the players. Ala NWN 

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,924
     The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    But that's as much a technical challenge as anything, isn't it?  End game isn't so much a dev goal as a practical necessity.

    At some point, the journey reaches a termination point.  If you include endless progression, you either have to keep churning out endless content, or you have to scale existing content (and repeat it over and over), which begins to make the endless progression seem rather superfluous.

    Devs can't create quality content at a fast enough rate to make any gaming experience "endless" without extreme repetition or unreasonable amounts of personnel needed to keep a flow of GM-created content going.  The repetitive content at the end becomes the "endgame."
    Which is why I think at that point of the game the power for creation should be handed to the players. Ala NWN 
    From what I remember of the brief amount of time I spent in NW (not NWN) where they did just that, there was a lot of user made content whose sole purpose was to exploit for XP and profit.

    User made content is not a bad idea but you need some serious vetting process to keep it honest.
    ScotAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    Scot said:
    I am all for new ideas VengeSunsoar, I see that if its cracked we could have much better retention in MMOs, but I am not seeing any magic bullets.

    I take Blue Turtle's point about raids not evolving, but how much have MMORPG's evolved? Where they have it is in the wrong direction, too easy, too solo, too small. But yes, raids need something new just like every other aspect does.

    The ESO example (the one that I am supposed to have read before but just saw above) is interesting. But I think the solo and raid gear may be too similar, Limnic is clearly a solo enthusiast, would like to hear what a raider thinks about this system. My concern would be that if the solo questing gear is too close to the raid gear players will start to ask 'why bother to raid'? Not saying you are lying Limnic, but I would like to hear the raider side of the argument as well.

    But the answer to "why should raid be the best activity" is not just its the hardest, it is the social activity which again seems to be lost on some of our posters. I would suggest that maybe some posters have raided in the wrong sort of guild for them? I have always been in guilds where community and roleplaying are put before elite nonsense. Maybe that's why they think this is all about being elite? Presuming they even play in a guild that is. Raids are a social event, relaxed and when I think sometimes there were teenagers who should not of been playing according to the games rules, it was a family rated event.

    Perhaps that's what is at the bottom of this, if you see raids as stressful events and have no other experience of good grouping then it is no wonder you seek an alterative. This is not the first time I have suggested as a solution to various issues players in MMOs have, find a good guild and the problem is sorted.
    Actually I only play MMOs as a multiplayer experience (I have a specific preference for playing support/healer roles). If I don't have other people to regularly group with I will instead generally pug it or look for some guilds to help out. It's a challenge to find an MMO I would consider fun to solo in, and I consequently don't bother because I can always pick up a single player game that's dedicated to delivering a quality experience around that if I'm in the mood for such. MMOs are about community and collaborative user experiences to me.

    I'm not big on raiding, but also not against it. I simply find it as a self-contained experience walled off from the rest of the game to not contribute back to the overall scope of most any MMOs experience. It's it's own activity and community, a weird little microcosm instead of being integrated in a manner the bulk of the game's community can interact with or benefit from. It's only a social activity to that small group of people you are raiding with and fails to connect at all to the larger community of the game.

    That's where the problem kind of crops up in my eyes, if the "community" of a game suddenly shrinks down to only a handful of people, it invalidates the point of being an MMO to me. I have to be able to reach beyond that small scope of users to participate in the broader ecosystem. And consequently, that game should have a broader ecosystem.

    And I would point to the article I linked you earlier that discusses the stress around raiding that has high tier-raiders discussing how it affects them.

    Not to contradict myself, but I personally raid solely for "community" as well. I have never been a gung-ho raider and while I do enjoy a challenge, I tend to play PvP or just hard single player games if I want such. On the few occasions I am grinding for gear, it's dominantly for cosmetic purposes as I enjoy collecting things. Consequently, the only reason I ever raid on any kind of regular basis is because there are people I want to play the game with, not because I enjoy raiding itself. But as I just stated in this post, if the people I raid with are the only people I play with, then it defeats the purpose of being an MMO for me because the community has suddenly shrunk down to something that'd fit on a generic lobby shooter.

    So please don't make assumptions.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Iselin said:
     The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    But that's as much a technical challenge as anything, isn't it?  End game isn't so much a dev goal as a practical necessity.

    At some point, the journey reaches a termination point.  If you include endless progression, you either have to keep churning out endless content, or you have to scale existing content (and repeat it over and over), which begins to make the endless progression seem rather superfluous.

    Devs can't create quality content at a fast enough rate to make any gaming experience "endless" without extreme repetition or unreasonable amounts of personnel needed to keep a flow of GM-created content going.  The repetitive content at the end becomes the "endgame."
    Which is why I think at that point of the game the power for creation should be handed to the players. Ala NWN 
    From what I remember of the brief amount of time I spent in NW (not NWN) where they did just that, there was a lot of user made content whose sole purpose was to exploit for XP and profit.

    User made content is not a bad idea but you need some serious vetting process to keep it honest.
    This was my thought as well.  Turning control of the game experience over to players in that way rarely goes without some kind of exploitation/griefing.

    image
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,826
    Iselin said:
     The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    But that's as much a technical challenge as anything, isn't it?  End game isn't so much a dev goal as a practical necessity.

    At some point, the journey reaches a termination point.  If you include endless progression, you either have to keep churning out endless content, or you have to scale existing content (and repeat it over and over), which begins to make the endless progression seem rather superfluous.

    Devs can't create quality content at a fast enough rate to make any gaming experience "endless" without extreme repetition or unreasonable amounts of personnel needed to keep a flow of GM-created content going.  The repetitive content at the end becomes the "endgame."
    Which is why I think at that point of the game the power for creation should be handed to the players. Ala NWN 
    From what I remember of the brief amount of time I spent in NW (not NWN) where they did just that, there was a lot of user made content whose sole purpose was to exploit for XP and profit.

    User made content is not a bad idea but you need some serious vetting process to keep it honest.
    This was my thought as well.  Turning control of the game experience over to players in that way rarely goes without some kind of exploitation/griefing.
    There will always be players who want to exploit but journey creation is something we set out to do with Spellborn post release but never had the chance and a couple of friends on Ryzom have done. It can be done it just takes effort, planning and thought.
    It is the best solution for longevity for a game. NWN is still played today because of it.   
    MadFrenchieScotAlBQuirky

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,839
     The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    But that's as much a technical challenge as anything, isn't it?  End game isn't so much a dev goal as a practical necessity.

    At some point, the journey reaches a termination point.  If you include endless progression, you either have to keep churning out endless content, or you have to scale existing content (and repeat it over and over), which begins to make the endless progression seem rather superfluous.

    Devs can't create quality content at a fast enough rate to make any gaming experience "endless" without extreme repetition or unreasonable amounts of personnel needed to keep a flow of GM-created content going.  The repetitive content at the end becomes the "endgame."
    Truly, having endless content is not necessary.  Instead, I would suggest ideas similar to FFXI where you had merits to gain once you hit max level that unlocked little extra bits of progression, and things like relic weapons which were both extreme long-term goals.  

    I've been playing CoH lately and I can already see the extreme long-term goal of getting your personal perfect set of enhancements for another example.  Also, getting all of the badges that grant bonuses.

    When FFXI released new content it never invalidated the prior expansion, it built on it.  This is a design philosophy that is TOTALLY lost on games like WoW and FFXIV.  ESO and GW2 do a better job, with ESO being the best in that regard.  

    ESO honestly has the single best progression/endgame of any game in the last 10 years.  I have issues with other aspects which is why I don't actively play/sub.....but that is certainly not one of them.  You know what the key is?  Long-term goals/progression.  The champion point system is great, and the lack of level-cap increases means when new gear sets come out they are about flexibility/building on the foundation not invalidating it.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,543
    edited June 8
    Well I think we all generally agree that there are several other things that can be obtained at end game.

    E.g gear, AA, recipes, maybe temp skills. 

    So how do we get them?

    No matter what we do it will be repeating content because that's what end game means. You've run out of content. So far there is raids, repeatable quests, camping, non raid dungeon crawls, generated quests (coh missions)... Hmm that it?

    Most of that is great for AA but isn't really on par to the difficulty of raids for getting that really great something. What would a really difficult on par with raid creating thing look like?

    Maybe something like in Istaria where building aT6 dragon grand hall requires about 6 million units. 

    In that game all you get is the hall but what if that gave a special machine that gave bonuses to the great you crafted or let you get special ore?

    What would you do for the others?
    UngoodAlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    This was my thought as well.  Turning control of the game experience over to players in that way rarely goes without some kind of exploitation/griefing.
    EQ2 actually had(has?) a similar mechanic for custom dungeons, but yeah the Cryptic(and EQ2) versions have unfortunately had the habit of being exploited for xp/resource farming. Last I knew EQ2 solved that by nerfing the custom dungeons into irrelevancy. Guess Cryptic has solved it by phasing out the foundry systems instead of continuing to support them too.

    Do feel like the principle of community made content does have to pick up somewhere though if the goal is to allow for more longevity in a game. The mistake generally is that the community content tends to fall into one of two categories.

    1) Instanced content that basically just offers more dungeons to raid, and is often either neglected or exploited as it relates to whether or not it's more efficient than a regular dungeon.

    2) "Sandbox" content that ultimately tends to lack rhyme or reason with little or no overarching narrative or direction to make it a cohesive world or experience.

    It's a weak point that needs a lot more fiddling about and brainstorming on. MMOs are somewhat unique to me in that they are a persistent shared user world where players can theoretically develop and evolve entire worlds and settings collaboratively.

    It's the kind of thing where an MMO might want to do something like what EQ Next was attempting to do with Landmark. Create a straight up sandbox counterpart to the primary game world that lets players prototype and show off anything they can come up with, and then filter that content into the "live" game world to allow for a more controlled but regular stream of user created content to extend the game.
    AlBQuirky
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,543
    edited June 8
    Or maybe add an alternative kind of creating something like the book writing in EQ2 or dungeon makers in that and other games where on ur passes a certain number of likes ior play throughs  the Creator gets a special status or ability.

    Yes I know that could be easily abused but we' could find ways around that.

    Something like that would keep it rare and may encourage those creative people to really try hard.
    AlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,835
    edited June 8
    I think content creation can also be limited by introducing some kind of numerical system. When you create content you have 100 points to use and while low level monsters with basic drops might cost 1 point to place boss monsters with better level loot would take up 5 points. There could also be limits on the number of monsters, zone size, rarity of loot etc. That way you can´t have your 5 minute loot run full of rare spawns and the best loot.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    AlBQuirky
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    That's what EQ2 did from what I recall, dungeons had a budget that you had to build within and the budget only increased if your creations were popular. Issue it ran into though was that the dungeons people could make didn't have any standout purpose as a result, since there was no unique drops and no increased rate to xp gain, it basically ended up being regarded as a weaker version of regular dungeons.

    It's not a bad track necessarily though, can cycle back to the trigger systems of things like Starcraft's map editor (or even the more robust later versions), and look at how you can try and push a more storytelling/narrative or even unique gameplay experiences into it. Like instead of a dungeon, if a player could utilize an event system to rig up their own mini games and make a carnival or something. Give the flexibility to reach a bit beyond the standard scope for user experiences instead of trying to extend or get fiddly with rewards.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,826
    lahnmir said:
    I think content creation can also be limited by introducing some kind of numerical system. When you create content you have 100 points to use and while low level monsters with basic drops might cost 1 point to place boss monsters with better level loot would take up 5 points. There could also be limits on the number of monsters, zone size, rarity of loot etc. That way you can´t have your 5 minute loot run full of rare spawns and the best loot.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    We are working on a system in a title that allows for user created content where the only rewards you receive for completing it are cosmetic ones. (weapon skins and effects, clothing and hats, even mount skins)
     The set of assets to include was the toughest challenge and the combination of user made assets with house made was the best option we could come up with. Internally it has worked really well. We will see if it pans out in further expanded testing sessions.

       
    lahnmirScotAlBQuirky

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Limnic said:
    This was my thought as well.  Turning control of the game experience over to players in that way rarely goes without some kind of exploitation/griefing.
    EQ2 actually had(has?) a similar mechanic for custom dungeons, but yeah the Cryptic(and EQ2) versions have unfortunately had the habit of being exploited for xp/resource farming. Last I knew EQ2 solved that by nerfing the custom dungeons into irrelevancy. Guess Cryptic has solved it by phasing out the foundry systems instead of continuing to support them too.

    Do feel like the principle of community made content does have to pick up somewhere though if the goal is to allow for more longevity in a game. The mistake generally is that the community content tends to fall into one of two categories.

    1) Instanced content that basically just offers more dungeons to raid, and is often either neglected or exploited as it relates to whether or not it's more efficient than a regular dungeon.

    2) "Sandbox" content that ultimately tends to lack rhyme or reason with little or no overarching narrative or direction to make it a cohesive world or experience.

    It's a weak point that needs a lot more fiddling about and brainstorming on. MMOs are somewhat unique to me in that they are a persistent shared user world where players can theoretically develop and evolve entire worlds and settings collaboratively.

    It's the kind of thing where an MMO might want to do something like what EQ Next was attempting to do with Landmark. Create a straight up sandbox counterpart to the primary game world that lets players prototype and show off anything they can come up with, and then filter that content into the "live" game world to allow for a more controlled but regular stream of user created content to extend the game.
    That's the hard part about player-made content: the devs lose a helluva lot of control over the end product.

    You can create systems to stifle exploitation, but that doesn't guarantee players will make content compelling enough to keep other players around.  And when you're running a business, that kind of unknown can't feel good.

    I agree that there are lots of examples of really great player-made content.  But then you have to compare that to how much bad player-made content is out there (either through intent of exploitation/griefing or a mere lack of skill/experience).

    That's a tough set of plates to keep spinning.
    LimnicMendelAlBQuirky

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,543
    edited June 8
    That's why I think that's some reward to the creator of the great player made content might work well to encourage it. Great could be defined by the people who are actually using it a rating system of sometime. Yes I know that this can be exploited easily. But you're smart people I'm sure you can figure it out

    At blue turtle I really think that the cosmetic items is a good idea. And as you said being able to combine that with a house item that you can get in regular gameplay for the you can Craft on your own is a great idea
    Scot
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    That's the hard part about player-made content: the devs lose a helluva lot of control over the end product.

    You can create systems to stifle exploitation, but that doesn't guarantee players will make content compelling enough to keep other players around.  And when you're running a business, that kind of unknown can't feel good.

    I agree that there are lots of examples of really great player-made content.  But then you have to compare that to how much bad player-made content is out there (either through intent of exploitation/griefing or a mere lack of skill/experience).

    That's a tough set of plates to keep spinning.
    Like anything, a vast majority of content produced might likely be bad. That was sort of the point in the case of Landmark for why it's it's own separate play space to filter things through. And yeah, many players will probably make things not worth looking at, but the vast majority of games in general produced, or most any kind of media, tends to not be worth a second glance any ways.

    That part is just looking for a high enough interest and churn in the system for some good content to start getting spit out and integrated.

    It's difficult too when the only reason someone looks at a system is because they want something from it, instead of wanting it for it's own user experience (as is the crux of many issues around raids). If the only way to get people to play a thing is to give them a cookie then you might need to reassess what's going wrong.That's kinda where I see the idea of pushing novelty of user experience as possibly being a more meaningful venue.

    For example, I brought up Starcraft's map editor because one of my favorite maps in that game to play online was "Chrono Trigger RPG" It was a fun and simple cooperative take of the Chrono Trigger game's plot with it's own simple RPG system. It was that kind of custom map and creative gameplay experience that cemented my early love for custom maps as a major interest to me when Warcraft 3 finally came around, and I was delighted how their map editor had managed to up the ante.

    Building a community around a game and system that, instead of rewarding players with regular game content (xp, loot, etc) as an incentive, but instead offered unique user experiences as the incentive, could be viable so long as people find they are capable of creating compelling and/or novel content out of it. Something that the developers can leverage for more self-contained user experiences to extend play like how Raids do it, but can also be leveraged to study and feed new user experience content back upwards, to help give the overall community more longevity to the core game.
    MadFrenchie
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,303
    Iselin said:
     The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    But that's as much a technical challenge as anything, isn't it?  End game isn't so much a dev goal as a practical necessity.

    At some point, the journey reaches a termination point.  If you include endless progression, you either have to keep churning out endless content, or you have to scale existing content (and repeat it over and over), which begins to make the endless progression seem rather superfluous.

    Devs can't create quality content at a fast enough rate to make any gaming experience "endless" without extreme repetition or unreasonable amounts of personnel needed to keep a flow of GM-created content going.  The repetitive content at the end becomes the "endgame."
    Which is why I think at that point of the game the power for creation should be handed to the players. Ala NWN 
    From what I remember of the brief amount of time I spent in NW (not NWN) where they did just that, there was a lot of user made content whose sole purpose was to exploit for XP and profit.

    User made content is not a bad idea but you need some serious vetting process to keep it honest.
    This was my thought as well.  Turning control of the game experience over to players in that way rarely goes without some kind of exploitation/griefing.
    At some point, one developer needs to apply some AI to the problem.  How about, let the players design the content, but have a developer-designed tool to distribute loot when the module is 'published'.  A decent version of that should help prevent a good bit of exploitation.

    What, if any, developer is going to think far enough outside the box to think of that?



    MadFrenchie

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,103
    @Limnic ;

    But isn't Mythic+ 5 man dungeon?  I get it that people don't want to raid, but now you are essentially complaining about doing 5 man dungeon.

    So you don't raid or do dungeons.  What are you expecting, rewarding stuff for solo content?

    Another question is how do you make hard solo content.  The only way I can think of is long grind like legendary in GW2.  Or being a master of economy and rich enough to buy top gear(for example Eve). 
    Scot
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AAAMEOW said:
    @Limnic ;

    But isn't Mythic+ 5 man dungeon? 
    You just explained the problem yourself, Raids are dungeons too. It's the same fundamental type of play.

    And as for how you make hard solo content, I refer you to Dark Souls.

    Is there really no way for you to look at unique mechanics and challenges that some raids have posed, and not see how similar challenges can be extracted an used in entirely different situations? Are you only able to fathom things as long as it remains within an instanced environment with a few people headbutting it?
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    What would a really difficult on par with raid creating thing look like?
    Getting 40 people to agreeing on what to put on Pizza.

    Really the hardest part of a raid is not the content, the other players.
    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,939
    I think it boils down to this. If only a small percentage like to raid why is raiding the only thing to do so the end game? Why is raiding the only way to get good gear so the end game?

    Having the only means of progressing being the thing that most people don't want to do sounds weird to me.

    Only 1% may beat that hardest raid content but who cares about that if only 10% even want to try.
    It's the culture and those who support the culture.  
    klash2defUngoodLimnic
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,103
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    @Limnic ;

    But isn't Mythic+ 5 man dungeon? 
    You just explained the problem yourself, Raids are dungeons too. It's the same fundamental type of play.

    And as for how you make hard solo content, I refer you to Dark Souls.

    Is there really no way for you to look at unique mechanics and challenges that some raids have posed, and not see how similar challenges can be extracted an used in entirely different situations? Are you only able to fathom things as long as it remains within an instanced environment with a few people headbutting it?
    Twitch combat is a really bad way to lock out player.  Now you are separating a tiny fraction of player that can get the rewards with relatively ease.  And large portion of people which can't get their goal no matter how long they try.

    Not to mention, it is hard in terms of skills.  But it is still easy in terms of effort.  Many raider/dungeon crawlers are twitchy too.  But they spend much more effort compare to a dark soul player.  So it is not fair to reward them with better rewards unless you make it grindy too.

    And I can't imagine the forum if the developer take that path.  There will be people complaining like you but most likely "much much more people complaining about it".
    blueturtle13Scot
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    Vermillion_RaventhalLimnicgunklackerKyleran
Sign In or Register to comment.