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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    Alot of these posts are just plain retarded.

    ...entitled people...
    Irony be thine name.

    Regarding your own posts example of WoW crafting, for example, it can be noted how much of the reason you could make money off crafting was because you could trade the things you craft. IE, it was an activity that played a role in the extended game world and economy. Does raiding? No, it's a microcosm activity. An isolated circuit for a finite amount of people to grind that often does not play into the greater community or economy.

    So sure, you wanna say crafting is an alternative? Then can we not take a moment to consider too how many things you mentioned about crafting are themselves rendered somewhat irrelevant when people grind out heirloom sets for alt leveling instead of crafting leveled sets?

    Or more so, how if someone does want many of those things, they can participate in the user economy to use money and resources they gather from their preferred part of the game to trade for items they want from a crafter that has been participating in a different part of the game?

    It's almost as if your own example shows already a better concept where player economy can take a role in letting players flexibly enjoy the facets of a title they want while still having a shot at obtaining anything they want as long as they are willing to invest into the player economy and ply themselves to scrape together however much it'd cost them.

    But acknowledging that would also mean you'd have to acknowledge just how ironic it is for you to chide others when your entire argument is built on elitism. 

    EDIT: Also of note, you outright lied in your post about what the original question was. Going back to the first page we can see that the question wasn't if raid gear should be locked behind raids.

    It was "Should their raid level gear for people who are into PvP, quest completionist or crafting?"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid#LVueJ7KvwT2kjlbo.99

    IE, should other progression tracks have their own equivalent reward tracks. You can feel free to keep raid gear exclusive to raids, but that does not answer the question of if other forms of gameplay should have their own meaningful rewards and content.

    When there is only one source of endgame gear, because the developers neglect every form of endgame content save for one track, that can be seen quite clearly as an issue because it means once all is said and done that once most players not interested in raids hit the endgame, they are out of content. Not just for earning gear, but to enjoy in general.

    This constant move to misrepresent things and denigrate them instead of giving any real critical thought, to insult the dialogue and opinions of others without ever even pausing to actually know what they are saying, and substituting your own fake strawmen to rant at, is not reasonable or mature. 
    Post edited by Limnic on
    AlBQuirky
  • ferdiaferdia Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    edited June 8
    I liked that post Limnic

    To my mind its simple math that there should be more then 1 way | 1 aspect to end game content (leveling; gearing) in order to appeal to the maximum player base. Whether that is Raids, Crafting, PvP or otherwise is irrelevant, the more the better (and yes, i said, leveling as a result of crafting/pvp).

    edit...and yes items should drop and by extension, pay to win should exist. While there are many (types of) games that dont have items as a feature, personalisation is a key component that casual players (to my mind) look for.

    I honestly see so many opportunities to make these games more appealing to a far wider playerbase, and this arguement can also be used for the OP's comments.
    Steelhelm
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,597
    edited June 8
    Limnic said:
    snip
    Raiding can be -- and in most cases is a huge part of an MMO community even if not too many people do it compared to the amount of people who don't. I feel like crafting is one of those systems that doesn't work quite so well in a raiding environment , but it can be done reasonably. You can craft consumables for raiders, you can craft one or two off pieces that take (tradeable) dropped materials from the raids that you can buy off the market,ect. Those kind of things tie very much directly into raiding. Crafting shouldn't get you the best gear in the game though unless it requires the same level of challenge as the hardest content in the game -- or it's a sandbox MMO.  Based on what I just said as well, raiding has a HUGE impact on the economy.

    I also don't really think it is fair to say that someone who thinks that the best gear in a game should come from the hardest is being elitist. That is just how it should work. Gear is not everything, but it should always have value. The second you remove that value (IE: Make it so you can grind ore in a zone for several hours a day and get the same equipment as someone who worked together with 9-19 other people taking collectively hundreds of hours to earn) is when gear becomes a boring and meaningless part of the game that no one cares about at all.

    You don't need to be able to get the best rewards in the game in order to enjoy it. Most people don't and still play. The journey of an MMO is important and if you can't raid for whatever reason right now -- maybe you will have an opportunity to in the future. There is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with going back and doing older raids now that there are new raids and enjoying them that way through minor catch up mechanics without completely resetting the items in the game every raid tier. (This is the way it largely worked in WoW from Vanilla - end of Wrath) Funnily enough, if you start to map out when WoW started losing most of it's players..it started happening when the game became more "everyone can experience everything!" mentality.

    There should always be a desire to do content that you can't always do because of time constraints or lack of skill. This creates a compelling reason to keep playing. Maybe this summer I will have time to raid or this new guild I am in is gonna casually raid soon! Maybe I have been playing long enough to feel good enough at the game to raid or maybe I am suddenly inspired to do all these things. If you don't have enough time to commit to a small window once a week to slowly progress through raid content, honestly you don't have time for MMOs in the first place.

    If you don't create that desire to aspire to be better / conquer harder content, you just don't create the social bonds that make MMOs really great and keep people playing. It is pretty easy to say that someone who can't raid just hits end game and stops just before raiding. That isn't really true, as any reasonably good MMO will have progression that doesn't shove you right into raids. This is the great part about something like vanilla WoW; you hit end game but you still had a few months potentially of gearing before you had to do raids to get better gear. Obviously there were mistakes made (Raid gear decimating PvP), but the core stuff is there. The idea would be that if you can raid, you do that and get better gear then the dungeons anyways. People who don't aren't really missing out until the gear grind dries up and they can't raid. At this point they would ideally have friends to help them get into alt runs for guild raids, more casual guilds to raid,ect. If not -- they can play alts, they can PvP, or maybe they can work there way towards buying up a few of the raid drops that are tradeable. If you aren't raiding, why do you need gear that you only need....for raiding? Isn't your whole point that once gear dries up there is no reason to keep playing? The same exact thing happens -- and has happened for years now in WoW WITH raiding being accessible. Sure, they can't always get the best gear, but they get to complete all the raid content on a version that is usually just lower numbers. Does that really make the game better? All you are doing is moving the goal posts in this scenario and making the whole progression of the game less interesting for everyone.


    Games like ESO and GW2 are good examples of this problem. Both have raiding, but both are largely focused on cosmetic progression. Notice I didn't say horizontal, as that would imply they were both constantly adding new gameplay options to progress towards. GW2 only really does this with new mounts these days and ESO doesn't really do it at all. Both of these games are largely treated, at least from my perspective, as short term --jump in when there is a large update every quarter, maybe less, and play it for a couple weeks then jump back out--. This is perfectly fine and both of these games are good in their own right, but they just don't create the same social structure that vertical progression based on overcoming challenging content has.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    Dear lord, one second.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    Celcius said:
    Limnic said:
    Irony be thine name.

    Regarding your own posts example of WoW crafting, for example, it can be noted how much of the reason you could make money off crafting was because you could trade the things you craft. IE, it was an activity that played a role in the extended game world and economy. Does raiding? No, it's a microcosm activity. An isolated circuit for a finite amount of people to grind that often does not play into the greater community or economy.

    So sure, you wanna say crafting is an alternative? Then can we not take a moment to consider too how many things you mentioned about crafting are themselves rendered somewhat irrelevant when people grind out heirloom sets for alt leveling instead of crafting leveled sets?

    Or more so, how if someone does want many of those things, they can participate in the user economy to use money and resources they gather from their preferred part of the game to trade for items they want from a crafter that has been participating in a different part of the game?

    It's almost as if your own example shows already a better concept where player economy can take a role in letting players flexibly enjoy the facets of a title they want while still having a shot at obtaining anything they want as long as they are willing to invest into the player economy and ply themselves to scrape together however much it'd cost them.

    But acknowledging that would also mean you'd have to acknowledge just how ironic it is for you to chide others when your entire argument is built on elitism. 

    EDIT: Also of note, you outright lied in your post about what the original question was. Going back to the first page we can see that the question wasn't if raid gear should be locked behind raids.

    It was "Should their raid level gear for people who are into PvP, quest completionist or crafting?"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid#LVueJ7KvwT2kjlbo.99

    IE, should other progression tracks have their own equivalent reward tracks. You can feel free to keep raid gear exclusive to raids, but that does not answer the question of if other forms of gameplay should have their own meaningful rewards and content.

    When there is only one source of endgame gear, because the developers neglect every form of endgame content save for one track, that can be seen quite clearly as an issue because it means once all is said and done that once most players not interested in raids hit the endgame, they are out of content. Not just for earning gear, but to enjoy in general.

    This constant move to misrepresent things and denigrate them instead of giving any real critical thought, to insult the dialogue and opinions of others without ever even pausing to actually know what they are saying, and substituting your own fake strawmen to rant at, is not reasonable or mature.
    Long post by yet another person who doesn't read what they are responding to and makes up an unrelated response instead.
    You seem to be conflating some things. Raiding can be one of the loudest parts of an MMO community, if only because they are the only ones with anything to do at endgame. They are rarely ever the "largest" part of any game. The very fact they never actually break a quarter of the size of any community will always note as much. They are simply an aggressive and vocal minority.

    And crafting should have to find a niche to cater to raiding, it should be a community element, something a swathe of people can interact with and benefit from.

    In addition to this, please don't do the same nonsensical straw-man comments as others like the one I responded to. Like this;

    "I also don't really think it is fair to say that someone who thinks that the best gear in a game should come from the hardest is being elitist."

    This, is not what was said. Them wanting endgame content to only be delivered through raids, is elitist. That's what was said. The solution, and what the OP of this thread even suggested in their initial post, was that there shouldn't be a universal BiS, which by default makes it so raids are not the generic BiS because they would then only be BiS for raiding.

    But instead of addressing that concept, a concept that was discussed in the very post you quoted, you just chose to talk about BiS as if there can only be one BiS for all of game content.

    There, I even re-added the post for you so you can actually read it this time instead of quoting and immediately snipping it.

    Much of the rest of your post, ironically, does and does not get the point at the same time. You talk about how games should reward challenge, but you fail to realize that we've been discussing how challenge in game content should be extended past just raids. IE, make deeper progression in other parts of the game for people to enjoy at endgame.

    How is it that no matter how many times these two concepts are stated, people like you keep pulling up entirely fictional arguments to poke at instead? Hell, how is it that you even responded to a post that discusses these two points at length, and even expressly corrects the fact that no one is saying you should earn gear without an appropriate challenge, yet you failed to grasp any of that?

    Also you're rather inaccurate regarding WoW's decline. It's been doing that for a LOOOOOONG time very slowly, and that began well before they did any shift to accommodating a broader scope of players, which they have also failed at sustaining time and again, which is part of the real root problem there as to why they are losing subs faster nowadays.

    You respond with another post like that and I'm more than willing to bet I can just start linking old comments that directly addresses your posts, knowing full well you hadn't bothered to read them even though they would have curtailed this nonsense if you had. 
    UngoodSteelhelmAlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,171
    Is "end game" raiding hard in wow?  what percentage of people beat the last raid boss in wow?
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 863
    Celcius said:

    There should always be a desire to do content that you can't always do because of time constraints or lack of skill.
    Desire can only sustain someone for so long, sooner or later they actually need something tangible. (And that's assuming the desire is even there to begin with, as many raid designs, e.g. learning the dance steps to a 100% scripted encounter, do not necessarily appeal).

    Also, with regards to the decline of WoW, from my perspective the beginning of the end was WotLK, as it was the third time Blizzard had made the end-game 'raid or die' (despite calls since Vanilla for more varied end-game content)... i.e. Blizzard had made it more than clear by this point that if you didn't like raiding then WoW simply wasn't the game for you. OK, fine, have fun, see you later (though probably not) …

    For Blizzard to then switch gears was silly (IMO), as now the game wasn't (necessarily) for the hardcore raiding crowd either… and as someone who had left, but had wanted more end-game dungeons, and had called for more accessible raids since Vanilla, I simply didn't care anymore, I was no longer invested, and I wasn't coming back.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,218
    edited June 8
    One thing you keep hearing here is how raids are for the minority of players, sure and that's not a bad thing. Making a game for the lowest common denominator is the design philosophy of todays MMORPG's. It encourages classes with no difference between them, no meaningful choices, solo to top level and the likes of dailies...preferably dailies that can be done in ten minutes.

    It encourages poor design in my eyes which caters to those who can be in game the least amount of time and gives nothing to those who can spend longer. By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on, just don't use those to replace the only solid grouping gameplay left in MMOs.

    The only time I have crafted in a MMORPG is when the guild needed a crafter, it is not to my taste. But I won't come on here saying how we need to do away with crafting or replace it with something more "fun", well more "fun" to me anyway regardless of what all the crafters think.
    Kyleran

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Scot said:
    One thing you keep hearing here is how raids are for the minority of players, sure and that's not a bad thing. Making a game for the lowest common denominator is the design philosophy of todays MMORPG's. It encourages classes with no difference between them, no meaningful choices, solo to top level and the likes of dailies...preferably dailies that can be done in ten minutes.

    It encourages poor design in my eyes which caters to those who can be in game the least amount of time and gives nothing to those who can spend longer. By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on, just don't use those to replace the only solid grouping gameplay left in MMOs.

    The only time I have crafted in a MMORPG is when the guild needed a crafter, it is not to my taste. But I won't come on here saying how we need to do away with crafting or replace it with something more "fun", well more "fun" to me anyway regardless of what all the crafters think.
    That rather misses the point yet again, that other elements of the game should have comparative focus, not genericization or lowest "common denominator".

    How many times in posts now have others stated increasing the standards and challenges other elements of the game can present? How do you go from that often stated preference to claiming it is asking for the "lowest common denominator"?

    Do you have an honest argument?
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,218
    edited June 8
    Limnic said:
    Scot said:
    One thing you keep hearing here is how raids are for the minority of players, sure and that's not a bad thing. Making a game for the lowest common denominator is the design philosophy of todays MMORPG's. It encourages classes with no difference between them, no meaningful choices, solo to top level and the likes of dailies...preferably dailies that can be done in ten minutes.

    It encourages poor design in my eyes which caters to those who can be in game the least amount of time and gives nothing to those who can spend longer. By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on, just don't use those to replace the only solid grouping gameplay left in MMOs.

    The only time I have crafted in a MMORPG is when the guild needed a crafter, it is not to my taste. But I won't come on here saying how we need to do away with crafting or replace it with something more "fun", well more "fun" to me anyway regardless of what all the crafters think.
    That rather misses the point yet again, that other elements of the game should have comparative focus, not genericization or lowest "common denominator".

    How many times in posts now have others stated increasing the standards and challenges other elements of the game can present? How do you go from that often stated preference to claiming it is asking for the "lowest common denominator"?

    Do you have an honest argument?

    I mentioned what the design philosophy of MMOs mostly now is as it seems to be something some posters are leaning to here. I saw the remarks about challenges, that’s why I said "By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on", but I am concerned that the OP wants to ditch raids, he uses expressions like "boys club" and so on. For me we could make raids better, how about more stages making it easier for players to get into raiding, that's a direction you will find most raiders favour.

    I think my arguments on here have all been honest, but you seem to think I am talking to every poster on here equally that is not the case.

    The increasing challenge you talk of is not a direction MMO designers will be happy to go in, they do seem to accept the handed down wisdom that games must get ever easier. That affects those launched too and is why the classic servers now coming out are all harder.

    I liked the idea of some solo hard questing, it is just an extension of normal questing though and as such should not be on a par with raids but might be good for making you raid ready. Lotro did some good 3 avatar group scenarios, they had some decent rewards but were an adjunct to raiding, that sort of thing works well.

    Finally, the history of MMOs has been to take away game play that was once thought essential and not give us much or indeed anything in return. Many MMOs now do not have raids, housing, crafting of any note or grouping. What have we got in return for that? I doubt many of you out there think the likes of dailies are a good return on such lost content but maybe you do?

     25 Agrees

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  • ferdiaferdia Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    edited June 8
    my take from what Scot said is -

    It is recognised that dev's would appear to be making games that are too easy (you too can be godly/can win like X person), and therefore if a Raid (or Raids) is hard, and only a few people (can) do it, but it has great rewards, then why take it out. I would not argue that statement. but conversely I dont agree that they should make games too simplistic. Raiding is clearly the way for certain games, but it does not have to be the only way.
    UngoodLimnicScotSteelhelm
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    ferdia said:
    my take from what Scot said is -

    It is recognised that dev's would appear to be making games that are too easy (you too can be godly/can win like X person), and therefore if a Raid (or Raids) is hard, and only a few people (can) do it, but it has great rewards, then why take it out. I would not argue that statement. but conversely I dont agree that they should make games too simplistic. Raiding is clearly the way for certain games, but it does not have to be the only way.
    Yeah, that's rather the problem that he's not getting, he keeps arguing a topic no one is disagreeing with, and is avoiding the topic that has been repeatedly brought up of "Why shouldn't we bring in challenging content and appropriate rewards to other components of the game?"

    Instead he keeps focusing on the idea of making raids the only endgame, which is directly counter to the logic of letting people branch out into their own niches of a game. Like this last post of @Scot , he straight up suggests just adding more tiers to raids, as if that solves any problem around the fact that raids are only a small sliver of an MMO's content and play options.

    So instead of exploring the subject of what other common facets there are of gameplay and how we can have extra tiers of content introduced across them to keep people engaged, we keep getting a broken loop that misses the point.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    Ya, im done here too. Alot of these posts are just plain retarded. The original question was should gear be locked, yes. Thats it.  Those stats on said gear are needed to push content, not kill mobs. Don't like it? Don't play it? I know I don't play games I dont enjoy. Know what I don't do? Run to a forum to knock a fair system. If you don't think its fair, your entitled. All these games offer accesible gear thats far more powerful then you need as a non raider.

    These nay sayers are scorned for some reason. Its a shame, that they cant just be happy for others. Most games dont require you to raid at all, and have a plethora of activities to keep people logging in. Since WOW is forever brought up, crafting is important in WOW (I know cause that was my gold income for years) cause it enables gearing alts easy or selling said gear for gold or to make pets/mounts/toys, to maybe even buy raid runs, pet collection, achievement hunting, fashion shows.......the list goes on. Many other mmo's follow suit because its a great formula, if it doesnt work for you thats on you. Theres a couple posters here just like to read what they write cause they consider it intelligent and informative, when the reality is there not actually applying anything. They keep screaming "Be innovative devs" when there already working hard on keeping the current system maintained. Running in circles with there heads cut off screaming the sky is falling. Were talking mainstream games, im sure theres some indie games that will suit your needs.

    Im a believer in not knocking something unless you can do it better. (within reason) Maybe this band of entitled people should ban together, get there own ip and make there kinda game. Leave the developers to decide, cause obviously how huge the market is, how huge its growing, its working.

    JELLO has been enjoyed for a  very long time, same formula,still enjoyed. Not everyone likes JELLO, theres been nothing revolutionary about JELLO over the years, but its still great stuff. Enjoyed by millions. How does this relate? Because why mess with a formula that proves effective? 

    Honestly, a few people in here need to leave mmo's behind. Or gaming in general. 


    Lol, you guys are the only one who sound scorned.  Not much to be said to a long rant about it claiming others are.  Just keep clutching your purse.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Ungood
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Scot said:
    Limnic said:
    Scot said:
    One thing you keep hearing here is how raids are for the minority of players, sure and that's not a bad thing. Making a game for the lowest common denominator is the design philosophy of todays MMORPG's. It encourages classes with no difference between them, no meaningful choices, solo to top level and the likes of dailies...preferably dailies that can be done in ten minutes.

    It encourages poor design in my eyes which caters to those who can be in game the least amount of time and gives nothing to those who can spend longer. By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on, just don't use those to replace the only solid grouping gameplay left in MMOs.

    The only time I have crafted in a MMORPG is when the guild needed a crafter, it is not to my taste. But I won't come on here saying how we need to do away with crafting or replace it with something more "fun", well more "fun" to me anyway regardless of what all the crafters think.
    That rather misses the point yet again, that other elements of the game should have comparative focus, not genericization or lowest "common denominator".

    How many times in posts now have others stated increasing the standards and challenges other elements of the game can present? How do you go from that often stated preference to claiming it is asking for the "lowest common denominator"?

    Do you have an honest argument?

    I mentioned what the design philosophy of MMOs mostly now is as it seems to be something some posters are leaning to here. I saw the remarks about challenges, that’s why I said "By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on", but I am concerned that the OP wants to ditch raids, he uses expressions like "boys club" and so on. For me we could make raids better, how about more stages making it easier for players to get into raiding, that's a direction you will find most raiders favour.

    I think my arguments on here have all been honest, but you seem to think I am talking to every poster on here equally that is not the case.

    The increasing challenge you talk of is not a direction MMO designers will be happy to go in, they do seem to accept the handed down wisdom that games must get ever easier. That affects those launched too and is why the classic servers now coming out are all harder.

    I liked the idea of some solo hard questing, it is just an extension of normal questing though and as such should not be on a par with raids but might be good for making you raid ready. Lotro did some good 3 avatar group scenarios, they had some decent rewards but were an adjunct to raiding, that sort of thing works well.

    Finally, the history of MMOs has been to take away game play that was once thought essential and not give us much or indeed anything in return. Many MMOs now do not have raids, housing, crafting of any note or grouping. What have we got in return for that? I doubt many of you out there think the likes of dailies are a good return on such lost content but maybe you do?

    The problem remains that your logic continues to revolve around how to make the user experience better for 10% of the user base, continuing to neglect the other 90% that the conversation on introducing more elements to the other components of the game is meant to help engage.

    Do you honestly expect to support an MMO's community by ignoring it?

    You may claim your arguments are honest, but when every time you make a comment it's at the complete dismissal of anyone outside the narrow band of "raiders" it just reaffirms you aren't giving any thought or credence to the subject that keeps being brought up.

    And plenty of designers are fine with challenge. The flaw is approachability and staying power in many cases. a poorly implemented idea, even if interesting in theory, will not retain people. Focusing on trying to tweak content that most users don't care about in the first place, does not help that to any measure. You want to support having a community in games? Then you need to give many of them a reason to stay.

    And that then cycles to the point that's been made time and time again. When no one but the dungeon runners, the "raiders" have endgame content to run, then it's killed it for the rest of the community, and that community and consequently that game will dwindle as it has over and over again. 

    Also, what's with that questing comment? "It's just an extension of normal questing."

    Yeah, and raids are just an extension of normal dungeons.

    There is no reason solo questing should not be on par with raids. As Ver even suggested in his opening post, rewards need not be the same either for every end-game track, but can instead carry gear that serves to enhance further progression withing the track it's earned from.

    And most major MMOs that currently stand have the things you claim are missing. This commentary of yours reflects more on the state of WoW, which has lost it's way in regards to the fact that they already neglected and lost a good chunk of their playerbase to focusing too much on raiders, and their later compromises to try and get them back simply did not work and only alienated the remaining userbase further.

    You'd be better off looking at more modern titles like FFXIV or ESO, with more relevant crafting systems, ESO having pretty decent housing and personalization systems, and raids being a present, but finite component that exists alongside continued progression of questing and endgame achievements spread across the game's mechanics.

    Which all leaves me with repeating the same question I have of your arguments as I posed last time.
    Ungood
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,171
    Limnic said:
    ferdia said:
    my take from what Scot said is -

    It is recognised that dev's would appear to be making games that are too easy (you too can be godly/can win like X person), and therefore if a Raid (or Raids) is hard, and only a few people (can) do it, but it has great rewards, then why take it out. I would not argue that statement. but conversely I dont agree that they should make games too simplistic. Raiding is clearly the way for certain games, but it does not have to be the only way.
    Yeah, that's rather the problem that he's not getting, he keeps arguing a topic no one is disagreeing with, and is avoiding the topic that has been repeatedly brought up of "Why shouldn't we bring in challenging content and appropriate rewards to other components of the game?"

    Instead he keeps focusing on the idea of making raids the only endgame, which is directly counter to the logic of letting people branch out into their own niches of a game. Like this last post of @Scot , he straight up suggests just adding more tiers to raids, as if that solves any problem around the fact that raids are only a small sliver of an MMO's content and play options.

    So instead of exploring the subject of what other common facets there are of gameplay and how we can have extra tiers of content introduced across them to keep people engaged, we keep getting a broken loop that misses the point.
    Correct me if I'm wrong.  You can get raid equivalent gear from doing mythic+ dungeon in wow.  So there are progression from non raid content. 

    The question is about "the best" gear in the game.  Which wow make it drop from the hardest raid.

    If only a tiny percentage of people manage to beat the hardest raid (1%) and get the best gear.  Do you think only 1% of crafter or 1% of dungeon crawler should be reward the best gear in the game?
     
    That become a question of entitlement.  Or should everyone be handed a trophy.  (The irony.  sandbox player like to mock themepark player about entitlement and being a game where everyone wins)
    Scot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,218
    edited June 8
    ferdia said:
    my take from what Scot said is -

    It is recognised that dev's would appear to be making games that are too easy (you too can be godly/can win like X person), and therefore if a Raid (or Raids) is hard, and only a few people (can) do it, but it has great rewards, then why take it out. I would not argue that statement. but conversely I dont agree that they should make games too simplistic. Raiding is clearly the way for certain games, but it does not have to be the only way.
    I agree, I would see more challenge at all levels, but not sure we will ever get that. And lets be honest ((one tries :) )), even raids get easier over time, nothing escapes the ever easier mode direction.


    Limnic, I am not saying every MMO is as simplistic as the majority, the examples you gave show there is some variety out there. I don't think that there are many MMOs like ESO and FFXIV (two of my top five) out there though, the majority have been stripped down. If you listen to how gaming studios justify such gameplay removals they use words like "streamlining". It is loss of content, but I don't think we differ much in this area so leaving that there.

    You do seem to mistake my not agreeing with you as my "ignoring" of the argument, no I just don't see this as you do. Perhaps it is time to get past that, if we don't agree it is not the end of the world, can you accept that though I wonder?

    I am all for giving players a reason to stay in end game, just wary of those new gameplay reasons effecting the one thing that has been able to retain players, raids. I have seen some decent ideas on here how that could be done, but my ideas revolve around those which do not effect raids. The solo questing on a par with raids clearly does, so I am against this.

    You could have crafting quests like Vanguard, even if you only introduced them at top level (less work for the studio). These would be quests where issues are resolved by crafting, that seems to really appeal to crafters, I don't even like crafting and liked the idea. This could be for the making of better housing and might even have bonus effects but as you can see it does not supplant raiding.

    Because if you have any knowledge of MMOs you will know that players always take the easiest route, and the easiest route would be top level solo questing for raid gear not raid questing for raid gear. Now the suggestion has been made this gear need not be raid gear, if not, what it would be used for? I could understand cosmetic outfits, or even something that was part of a pvp outfit, perhaps making you more PvP ready?

    So I hope you can see I am open to ideas just not all of your ideas, which is not the same as ignoring the issue.

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    ferdia said:
    my take from what Scot said is -

    It is recognised that dev's would appear to be making games that are too easy (you too can be godly/can win like X person), and therefore if a Raid (or Raids) is hard, and only a few people (can) do it, but it has great rewards, then why take it out. I would not argue that statement. but conversely I dont agree that they should make games too simplistic. Raiding is clearly the way for certain games, but it does not have to be the only way.
    Yeah, that's rather the problem that he's not getting, he keeps arguing a topic no one is disagreeing with, and is avoiding the topic that has been repeatedly brought up of "Why shouldn't we bring in challenging content and appropriate rewards to other components of the game?"

    Instead he keeps focusing on the idea of making raids the only endgame, which is directly counter to the logic of letting people branch out into their own niches of a game. Like this last post of @Scot , he straight up suggests just adding more tiers to raids, as if that solves any problem around the fact that raids are only a small sliver of an MMO's content and play options.

    So instead of exploring the subject of what other common facets there are of gameplay and how we can have extra tiers of content introduced across them to keep people engaged, we keep getting a broken loop that misses the point.
    Correct me if I'm wrong.  You can get raid equivalent gear from doing mythic+ dungeon in wow.  So there are progression from non raid content. 

    The question is about "the best" gear in the game.  Which wow make it drop from the hardest raid.

    If only a tiny percentage of people manage to beat the hardest raid (1%) and get the best gear.  Do you think only 1% of crafter or 1% of dungeon crawler should be reward the best gear in the game?
     
    That become a question of entitlement.  Or should everyone be handed a trophy.  (The irony.  sandbox player like to mock themepark player about entitlement and being a game where everyone wins)
    Correct you if you're wrong? Sure thing.

    Well I can point out that Mythic+ is fundamentally the same kind of pocket dungeon as raids, just stepped in scale. You're basically just replacing raids with mini-raids. IE, raiding with more raiding.

    Next correction.

    The question was not simply "best gear in game". The first post even posed the notion that gear should be more specialized so "best in slot" became entirely dependent on the track of game content you chose to focus on. IE, the best gear for raids would be rewarded from raids, but would not be the same as best gear for public events, PvP, quest-tracks, etc.

    And consequently to your question.

    End game content is for end-game players. The point would be that people that want to progress by playing content they enjoy, should have a venue for that instead of culling the gameplay down to a single track. A tiny percentage of people beat the hardest raid content because a tiny percentage enjoy that specific form of gameplay.

    Next correction.

    And that's not a question of entitlement, because it's not asking for handouts in the first place. That's only a straw-man provided by people who want to bullshit without giving what's being said proper consideration. Why should everyone be handed a trophy? What part is that remotely relevant to wanting other aspects of the game to have equivalent rewards for respectively equivalent effort?

    The answer is, it's not because that claim of entitlement is a fundamentally false argument created because instead of addressing the idea of equivalent tracks of progression, people like you are apparently making a leap in assumption right past the point of making the rest of the game's system relevant instead of forgotten. The rest of the userbase the ultimately bleeds away from the game because they are ignored for the sake of dungeon grinds and raids.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    Also worth nothing @AAAMEOW

    All of what I just wrote would have already been addressed had you just read the post right above yours.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,624
    AlBQuirky said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.
    I think this is your basic problem. You want something other than MMORPGs, but labeled as such.
    I think your problem is you think mmorpg's must be played the way you think they should be played.
    I didn't say anything about "playing" an MMORPG. I'm talking about the basic mechanics that makes a game an MMORPG.

    Care to try again?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    That depends.
    Are MMORPGs
    "games where you can only murder things in a linear instanced environment"
    Or 
    "massively multiplayer role playing games you play one of a variety of roles in"

    If it's a Role Playing Game, what are the roles you are playing? Is the "holy trinity" the only choice? Is it a RPG or a stilted ARPG?
    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scot said:
    One thing you keep hearing here is how raids are for the minority of players, sure and that's not a bad thing. Making a game for the lowest common denominator is the design philosophy of todays MMORPG's. It encourages classes with no difference between them, no meaningful choices, solo to top level and the likes of dailies...preferably dailies that can be done in ten minutes.

    It encourages poor design in my eyes which caters to those who can be in game the least amount of time and gives nothing to those who can spend longer. By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on, just don't use those to replace the only solid grouping gameplay left in MMOs.

    The only time I have crafted in a MMORPG is when the guild needed a crafter, it is not to my taste. But I won't come on here saying how we need to do away with crafting or replace it with something more "fun", well more "fun" to me anyway regardless of what all the crafters think.
    You have to cater to the lowest common detonator.  Doesn't mean you have to make everyhting easy but why would you not cater to a majority of your player base?  If some guys want easy mode and relax after work they should get content geared to that

    At the same time there are people who are interested in challenges that have no interest in raids.  Not because they are hard but it just waste too much time, boring and boys club mentality.  You guys make it seem like raids don't have much of a leg to stand on without gear locked behind it.

    Would raiding die if solo and small group content got the best gear to do solo and small group activities?  Would raids die if explorers got the best gear to travel, find resources and etc.  Would raids die if crafters had their own means to make the best gear for others through their own trials?  If so maybe raiding needs something done.

    To be honest I never liked the way themepark content was setup in the first place.  I would setup everything based on challenge than level based.  Light challenge near major cities, medium challenge, hard challenge, solo classes/small group challenge, full group challenge, multiple group/challenge raid challenge.  It's just far more natural and meaningful than 1 to 1 leveling 1-50.  

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,624
    AlBQuirky said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.
    I think this is your basic problem. You want something other than MMORPGs, but labeled as such.
    Tell me what are the requirements for a MMORPG?


    Well, a Massively Multiplayer game which is Online would be a good start, yes? Even the massively part can be different for different players. Generally, though, the capability to have 100's or 1000's of players simultaneously online is a good start.

    The RPG portion can get a little tricky, though. One basic fundamental of roleplaying games is progression. Another basic tenet for me is playing the role of someone else, not "AlBQuirky in another land." This is why I refuse to call MMOs with action combat, where MY twitch skills count, not my characters actual skills, an RPG. Action adventure? That fits here. Others will disagree :)

    As to raid gear, the topic, it's neither here nor there. Yet you said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.

    Basically, MMORPG defines a genre, just like puzzle games and platformers do. If you call a game an MMORPG, players expect certain features in the game. That expectation is the whole purpose of genres.

    MMO is an umbrella term which then separates into RPG, FPS, ARPG, and so on. Would you also say, "There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as Autobiographical books go?"

    When does an MMORPG stop being an MMORPG?

    blueturtle13Scot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,898
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.
    I think this is your basic problem. You want something other than MMORPGs, but labeled as such.
    Tell me what are the requirements for a MMORPG?


    Well, a Massively Multiplayer game which is Online would be a good start, yes? Even the massively part can be different for different players. Generally, though, the capability to have 100's or 1000's of players simultaneously online is a good start.

    The RPG portion can get a little tricky, though. One basic fundamental of roleplaying games is progression. Another basic tenet for me is playing the role of someone else, not "AlBQuirky in another land." This is why I refuse to call MMOs with action combat, where MY twitch skills count, not my characters actual skills, an RPG. Action adventure? That fits here. Others will disagree :)

    As to raid gear, the topic, it's neither here nor there. Yet you said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.

    Basically, MMORPG defines a genre, just like puzzle games and platformers do. If you call a game an MMORPG, players expect certain features in the game. That expectation is the whole purpose of genres.

    MMO is an umbrella term which then separates into RPG, FPS, ARPG, and so on. Would you also say, "There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as Autobiographical books go?"

    When does an MMORPG stop being an MMORPG?

    I think the fact that very very few actual mmorpg games have been released in a while most gamers really don't understand the difference older players of the genre have in regards to the term mmorpg. If a game is online and can be played with others many look at it and call it an mmorpg. Regardless of the purists' efforts. At this point I think the term has lost it's original meaning. At least to 99% of the gaming population.   
    AlBQuirkyScotKyleran

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    Scot said:


    Limnic, I am not saying every MMO is as simplistic as the majority, the examples you gave show there is some variety out there. I don't think that there are many MMOs like ESO and FFXIV (two of my top five) out there though, the majority have been stripped down. If you listen to how gaming studios justify such gameplay removals they use words like "streamlining". It is loss of content, but I don't think we differ much in this area so leaving that there.

    You do seem to mistake my not agreeing with you as my "ignoring" of the argument, no I just don't see this as you do. Perhaps it is time to get past that, if we don't agree it is not the end of the world, can you accept that though I wonder?

    I am all for giving players a reason to stay in end game, just wary of those new gameplay reasons effecting the one thing that has been able to retain players, raids. I have seen some decent ideas on here how that could be done, but my ideas revolve around those which do not effect raids. The solo questing on a par with raids clearly does, so I am against this.

    You could have crafting quests like Vanguard, even if you only introduced them at top level (less work for the studio). These would be quests where issues are resolved by crafting, that seems to really appeal to crafters, I don't even like crafting and liked the idea. This could be for the making of better housing and might even have bonus effects but as you can see it does not supplant raiding.

    Because if you have any knowledge of MMOs you will know that players always take the easiest route, and the easiest route would be top level solo questing for raid gear not raid questing for raid gear. Now the suggestion has been made this gear need not be raid gear, if not, what it would be used for? I could understand cosmetic outfits, or even something that was part of a pvp outfit, perhaps making you more PvP ready?

    So I hope you can see I am open to ideas just not all of your ideas, which is not the same as ignoring the issue.
    Unless you're including churned out titles, there's not many MMO's in general.

    Even as much of a dull grind the core progression track of Black Desert is, people forget that game has a rather broad housing, crafting, and community/economy systems that offer alternative play tracks for example.

    I do not see this same "majority" you are making such clams about, unless again you are trying to include the cheap churn titles. The problem is that these alternative tracks are neglected, which is the crux of so much of this conversation. They are there, but when they are ignored for the sake of making raids and mini-raids into the only endgame track, then all those other components no longer have sufficient meaning to players and they will begin to leave until it's only the small community of diehards with their endgame niche left.

    And I do not mistake anything here. Your own comments shows how you continue to ignore things. Either by a willful choice of refusing the logic, or by simply not being able to understand something that's been bluntly stated.

    Point in case. Raids have not been able to retain players. The MMOs that have focused raids as their only end-game content have all bled users. Many titles that have tried to encapsulate the raid experience by itself have similarly floundered out by virtue of never having enough users to sustain them.

    This is again an example of where you are ignoring things. Because you make a statement that in order to be made, has to assume that giving greater depth to other elements of the game to offer other choices for play in end-game somehow is to the detriment of raids. Like that solo questing comment of yours.

    Why do you think solo questing would be to the detriment of raids? Because your path of least resistance argument, that ignores that a single player focused experience can retain a high challenge ceiling?

    Which is ironic since the solution is something you touch upon following in your comment on crafting, yet you forget it again right after when you try your path of least resistance argument again. You assume that solo questing would be fundamentally less time or effort intensive than raids, which is a false assumption by itself, and then stack that with the blatant act of ignoring the thing that's been brought up multiple times, that different types of end game progression can have different reward tracks that benefit those specific tracks. IE, solo quest chains offers gear that is tailored to progressing through the next stage of the chain, and raid rewards are more unique to gearing for specific elements of the raids (like unique abilities or counters to specific elements present in the raid used as a way to unlock the path to the next raid tier).

    So I can see that you are ignoring things. Quite brazenly even.
    Whether you are doing it consciously or not is the only unknown.
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