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MMO with no leveling

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,241
    blamo2000 said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
    This is interesting.  I like when people have hard standards and disregard games that do not meet them.  I won't play a game that doesn't have a decent character development system, but I absolutely hate games with no caps that otherwise have interesting chardev.  For instance games like Runescape or that real money economy game where you can increase all skills to max.  To me these games have no character builds since every max out character is exactly the same.  Or, more usually a game has such a lite, or cookie cutter chardev system every max level class is exactly the same.  I want a system where I can learn it, and try to exploit it by doing weird shit and coming up with really weird builds.

    This means my build has to be realized and at some point there the progression has to stop.  

    Do you have other requirements like a game needs a decent character development system with some meat, choices, and complexity?  Or does that not matter when you stop playing when progression ends.  What do you think of Alternate Advancement systems like in Rift, EQ2, and Neverwinter Online?
    Not really. Progression is a broad, general term, not anything specific, like good stories or lore, fun combat (which differs for everyone who says "fun"), or character skill vs player skill in games. When progression ends, like at the end of the game, I either roll a new character or go to another game.

    I have played games where progression is minimal, but not RPGs. Doom, Quake, Hexen and Heretic were all fun games. Minimal progression there.
    blamo2000

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress. 


    Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.

    1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.

    2) You beat the game and thus, won.

    Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.


    So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character?  Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression.  You still had things to do.  

    And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world  your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left.  Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.  
    Bullshit. Adventure had gear progression. You adventured to find better gear to go deeper. Have you played these games you're citing?
    Yes, some do and some don't.


    Gdemami
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 69
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
    No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.

    That's what progress means - movement forward.  It is incremental, one way and direction only.

    It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.


    You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
    Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
    SteelhelmGdemami
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,241
    Aenghas said:
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
    No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.

    That's what progress means - movement forward.  It is incremental, one way and direction only.

    It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.


    You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
    Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
    Really, the key word in this "worshipped term" is progression. Horizontal progression is still progression, not some "idea" where players stay static from the time they start the game.

    Even going through stories or quests, a player progresses from chapter to chapter. City building progresses from one tent to stone buildings everywhere with new people moving in. Many PvP games have players progress through the ranks, trying to be number 1. Gear races progress from cloth to leather to metal armor or wooden weapons to metal weapons, melee to range. Exploration progresses from one area to the next.

    None of these involve level or skill progression, so what exactly IS this "progressionless" horizontal progression? On this board, this term is being used as an "alternative" to progression, when it is not.
    Octagon7711blamo2000GdemamiAmarantharUngoodmmolou

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 69
    AlBQuirky said:
    Aenghas said:
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
    No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.

    That's what progress means - movement forward.  It is incremental, one way and direction only.

    It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.


    You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
    Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
    Really, the key word in this "worshipped term" is progression. Horizontal progression is still progression, not some "idea" where players stay static from the time they start the game.

    Even going through stories or quests, a player progresses from chapter to chapter. City building progresses from one tent to stone buildings everywhere with new people moving in. Many PvP games have players progress through the ranks, trying to be number 1. Gear races progress from cloth to leather to metal armor or wooden weapons to metal weapons, melee to range. Exploration progresses from one area to the next.

    None of these involve level or skill progression, so what exactly IS this "progressionless" horizontal progression? On this board, this term is being used as an "alternative" to progression, when it is not.
    I said all the way back on page 7 a game without levels would still have progression...horizontal progression. Did someone else talk about a game without levels having zero progression? I may have missed it in a wall of text.

    Meanwhile, some people seem to be wrestling with what vertical and horizontal progression entail, when they are fairly well defined concepts with a history in game design.
    GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    AlBQuirky said:
    Aenghas said:
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
    No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.

    That's what progress means - movement forward.  It is incremental, one way and direction only.

    It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.


    You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
    Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
    Really, the key word in this "worshipped term" is progression. Horizontal progression is still progression, not some "idea" where players stay static from the time they start the game.

    Even going through stories or quests, a player progresses from chapter to chapter. City building progresses from one tent to stone buildings everywhere with new people moving in. Many PvP games have players progress through the ranks, trying to be number 1. Gear races progress from cloth to leather to metal armor or wooden weapons to metal weapons, melee to range. Exploration progresses from one area to the next.

    None of these involve level or skill progression, so what exactly IS this "progressionless" horizontal progression? On this board, this term is being used as an "alternative" to progression, when it is not.
    Horizontal is shallow vertical progression.  The point is to not have power by having power platforms like levels which multiple numbers and sometimes artificial barriers.  Your level 70 wizard can defeat a prior max level fighter in epics... while naked and unarmed in melee because you have two new expansions packs 

    It makes the gameplay more grounded and content more common sense.  No common wolf from an new expansion pack being able to solo the whole 3 expansion prior raid with an extinction crisis characters in it.  
    GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,664
    Aenghas said:
    Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
    ...oh, that's next thing you are also "sure" about, right?
    parrotpholk
  • bcbullybcbully Member RarePosts: 9,702
    Mendel said:
    At some point, an MMORPG with no leveling simply becomes an RTS game.  RPG and leveling have long been companions, as leveling is one of the cornerstones of progression.  Progression is one element that helps people to connect with their characters.  Really, who identifies with 'third axeman from the left'?  I know I'd rather play 'Krodor Trollbane, Axeman of the Guards who is deathly afraid of spiders'.



    Cornerstone, but not in it’s current state. The leveling systems of today are mockery of the original rpg systems were.

    Every piece of gear is outdated every level. Silly as you get if you ask me.
    AmarantharAenghasSteelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited June 3
    AlBQuirky said:
    Aenghas said:
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
    No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.

    That's what progress means - movement forward.  It is incremental, one way and direction only.

    It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.


    You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
    Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
    Really, the key word in this "worshipped term" is progression. Horizontal progression is still progression, not some "idea" where players stay static from the time they start the game.

    Even going through stories or quests, a player progresses from chapter to chapter. City building progresses from one tent to stone buildings everywhere with new people moving in. Many PvP games have players progress through the ranks, trying to be number 1. Gear races progress from cloth to leather to metal armor or wooden weapons to metal weapons, melee to range. Exploration progresses from one area to the next.

    None of these involve level or skill progression, so what exactly IS this "progressionless" horizontal progression? On this board, this term is being used as an "alternative" to progression, when it is not.
    A game that comes to mind with this discussion that would provide you a real game example of what is being put out, would be game like Second Life. The Whole game is pretty much a social sandbox, which, make no mistake is really cool in it's own right. (There are other games like Habbo hotel, Furcadia, and others along those lines, but, to be honest, Second Life is one of the more MMO-esque style games that provides this mystical Progression-less gameplay, that I think we as MMORPG gamers would understand and appreciate) 


    I mean, there is an accumulation of wealth, and buying land, but, the wealth or even land ownership does not give you an progression, it is simply a trade good.

    Edit Added: I have no idea how Entropia Universe works, but that might be another example of what they are thinking about when they talk about a Level-less or Progression-less game.
    AlBQuirky
  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,694
    IMO, if you need +1's all the time to justify playing games instead of playing them for their content and fun, you need to rethink your life.
    KyleranSteelhelmVermillion_RaventhalGdemami
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,241
    jusomdude said:
    IMO, if you need +1's all the time to justify playing games instead of playing them for their content and fun, you need to rethink your life.
    Good thing I don't care what you think about me, then, eh?

    Give me those +1's! :D

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 804
    edited June 6
    I like a game like Terraria, where it's tied to gear with health/magic upgrades. Better gear leads to harder boss fights, which leads to better gear. And you can take that gear with you when you roll a new world. I guess the gear has stats that get better though... But that's not leveling right? You find hearts and stars to increase the amount of Health/Magic too, but I wouldn't consider those level.

    Yes, I understand Terraria isn't an mmorpg necessarily, but I like the mechanic of that over actual levels maybe.

    But again, yes I'm an OASIS fiend, but that make-believe game world had levels that sounded like it took a while to level, and it had gear with stats also, but it also had places where people that didn't want to even get into that part of the game could go and enjoy themselves at Level 1 for life.

    There were other places that were FFA, and there were places in between.

    Why can't a game have FFA island, and carebear island, and crafting island, and building island, and exploring island? Mechanics can cover all that stuff.

    Gut Out!
    AlBQuirky

    What, me worry?

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,241
    edited June 7
    Gutlard said:
    I like a game like Terraria, where it's tied to gear with health/magic upgrades. Better gear leads to harder boss fights, which leads to better gear. And you can take that gear with you when you roll a new world. I guess the gear has stats that get better though... But that's not leveling right? You find hearts and stars to increase the amount of Health/Magic too, but I wouldn't consider those level.

    Yes, I understand Terraria isn't an mmorpg necessarily, but I like the mechanic of that over actual levels maybe.

    <snip>

    Gut Out!
    I've struggled with "character levels" in video games for a long time. My AD&D upbringing helped me gloss over and accept that mechanic. EQ also helped in that NOT everything got better. You got 5 points to spend in the skills you wanted to. It's when a character level equates to automatically improving on skills and abilities the character never used that makes me wonder, "How?"

    I am a proponent of abilities and skills leveling as you use them, like UO and other MMORPGs had :)
    GdemamiAmaranthar

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,339
    Gutlard said:
    I like a game like Terraria, where it's tied to gear with health/magic upgrades. Better gear leads to harder boss fights, which leads to better gear. And you can take that gear with you when you roll a new world. I guess the gear has stats that get better though... But that's not leveling right? You find hearts and stars to increase the amount of Health/Magic too, but I wouldn't consider those level.

    Yes, I understand Terraria isn't an mmorpg necessarily, but I like the mechanic of that over actual levels maybe.

    But again, yes I'm an OASIS fiend, but that make-believe game world had levels that sounded like it took a while to level, and it had gear with stats also, but it also had places where people that didn't want to even get into that part of the game could go and enjoy themselves at Level 1 for life.

    There were other places that were FFA, and there were places in between.

    Why can't a game have FFA island, and carebear island, and crafting island, and building island, and exploring island? Mechanics can cover all that stuff.

    Gut Out!
    I want a game world that is one big world, where everything affects everything else. I don't want things separated out like that. It just doesn't seem like I'm playing in a world when it's divided up.
    That also applies to the wide power gaps and what they do to player interactions and how little choice they have in where to go and what to do.
    Just my opinion.

    Once upon a time....

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,540
    edited June 7
    I'm definitely willing to put in the time. Even 3x, 4,5... Do the crafting whatever... To get better gear. I just don't like raiding. 

    A single arrow shot from one guy took down Smaug.

    I want a game that doesn't have specific requirements. It just has the mob. No gear checks or certain number of people before the game will let you attempt it.

    Sure you likely won't succeed but don't prevent me from trying.
    AlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
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