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with all the pro Sandbox talk over the last decade, no sandbox game really changed the formula

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  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    Steelhelm said:
    Like you said, it's not about solo mechanics, but each player controls an individual avatar. If you let players throw shit at each other, they will. That's why ffa pvp games fail. Many people come to ffa pvp games to gank noobs because it makes them feel good. I'm not interested in that kind of gameplay. That's the failure to me.
    No. You assume ganking noobs is a thing. It is not. Let take Albion again. A full loot game. Do players gank noobs? Yes. But these  who do that are mainly noobs. The experienced player, at least the majority will not attack a newbie player, as there will not be loot. And this is a game, where the ganking is meaningful and rewarding. And with proper risk/reward ratio - higher players you attack, higher rewards you could get.

    And let see Tera. A game where players really gank noobs for nothing. Also L2. There they gank, when they are bored. And they get nothing as reward and nothing as challenge. 

    So the problem is not the ganking itself. It is how the goals and the tools for FFA PvP are implemented.

    People do not come in games to gank noobs. At least the majority. They do it when they have nothing else to do. As with ganking they will lose time for progression or other goals. It is - my game is boring, let ruin your game. But when the ganking is properly implemented like in Albion or EVE, it is actually fun for all. Again - goals and tools.

    Gdemami
  • SplitStream13SplitStream13 Member UncommonPosts: 165
    ikcin said:
    Steelhelm said:
    since we are talking about pvp i'll bud in...
    another mechanic to tackle the ffa pvp dilemma are pvp tags
    letting players to tag themselves for a pvp role in the world that defines who they can and cannot attack: bandit, guard, merchant, murderer, bounty hunter etc

    of course some tags should have to be forced on players for some actions for example for transporting goods you get the merchant tag etc
    and if you tag yourself as a murderer and use the tag to randomly kill, that should be a one way ticket to permadeath...

    but the biggest design decision will always remain imo: will you allow murderers to attack anyone indiscriminately... or create tagless players and if you create these tagless PVE players what would their role in the world be... what would they contribute to the game...

    just some of my thoughts on open world pvp...
    You start from the end - the current mechanisms. Again L2 and Albion - in the first you have experience loss, in the second - full loot. Which is more harsh? The answer is L2, as you need more time to get the experience. But full loot obviously sounds harder. Actually there are not murders, loot and etc. - 
    Went into Lineage 2 Classic NA few weeks ago. It's dumbed down a lot. Like, instant lvl 20. So I grinded a bit for nostalgia, got eventually dual sls for free (lol). So I went to abandoned camp. There was some wannabe sword singer, with karma, and real bow of peril. 

    My and my buddy killed him. He dropped the bow. We now have millions of adena. 

    Fun times. 
  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 332
    edited June 2019
    ikcin said:
    Steelhelm said:
    Like you said, it's not about solo mechanics, but each player controls an individual avatar. If you let players throw shit at each other, they will. That's why ffa pvp games fail. Many people come to ffa pvp games to gank noobs because it makes them feel good. I'm not interested in that kind of gameplay. That's the failure to me.
    No. You assume ganking noobs is a thing. It is not. Let take Albion again. A full loot game. Do players gank noobs? Yes. But these  who do that are mainly noobs. The experienced player, at least the majority will not attack a newbie player, as there will not be loot. And this is a game, where the ganking is meaningful and rewarding. And with proper risk/reward ratio - higher players you attack, higher rewards you could get.

    And let see Tera. A game where players really gank noobs for nothing. Also L2. There they gank, when they are bored. And they get nothing as reward and nothing as challenge. 

    So the problem is not the ganking itself. It is how the goals and the tools for FFA PvP are implemented.

    People do not come in games to gank noobs. At least the majority. They do it when they have nothing else to do. As with ganking they will lose time for progression or other goals. It is - my game is boring, let ruin your game. But when the ganking is properly implemented like in Albion or EVE, it is actually fun for all. Again - goals and tools.

    Here we go. You say I assume ganking noobs is a thing and then you say it's not a thing. And then you go on to explain how ganking noobs is a thing in many games. Just make a little effort, please. :)
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    Steelhelm said:
    ikcin said:
    Steelhelm said:
    Like you said, it's not about solo mechanics, but each player controls an individual avatar. If you let players throw shit at each other, they will. That's why ffa pvp games fail. Many people come to ffa pvp games to gank noobs because it makes them feel good. I'm not interested in that kind of gameplay. That's the failure to me.
    No. You assume ganking noobs is a thing. It is not. Let take Albion again. A full loot game. Do players gank noobs? Yes. But these  who do that are mainly noobs. The experienced player, at least the majority will not attack a newbie player, as there will not be loot. And this is a game, where the ganking is meaningful and rewarding. And with proper risk/reward ratio - higher players you attack, higher rewards you could get.

    And let see Tera. A game where players really gank noobs for nothing. Also L2. There they gank, when they are bored. And they get nothing as reward and nothing as challenge. 

    So the problem is not the ganking itself. It is how the goals and the tools for FFA PvP are implemented.

    People do not come in games to gank noobs. At least the majority. They do it when they have nothing else to do. As with ganking they will lose time for progression or other goals. It is - my game is boring, let ruin your game. But when the ganking is properly implemented like in Albion or EVE, it is actually fun for all. Again - goals and tools.

    Here we go. You say I assume ganking noobs is a thing and then you say it's not a thing. And then you go on to explain how ganking noobs is a thing in many games. Just make a little effort, please. :)
    It is not an issue when it is implemented properly. It is like a survival game with a really good AI. The problem are the goals and the tools. When the game is focused on the solo character progression obviously any multiplayer activity is interruption. So forced PvP, forced grouping, forced ganking, anything is forced, as you play a solo RPG. When the game is open world, none of that is an issue. In Albion the ganking is not an issue. Except for the solo gatherers. The problem is that in a long term there is nothing more than ganking - no politics, real territory control, open world sieges and battles. In L2 you have all that long term goals. But the short term PvP and cooperation are broken.
    Gdemami
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,838
    ikcin said:
    Steelhelm said:
    since we are talking about pvp i'll bud in...
    another mechanic to tackle the ffa pvp dilemma are pvp tags
    letting players to tag themselves for a pvp role in the world that defines who they can and cannot attack: bandit, guard, merchant, murderer, bounty hunter etc

    of course some tags should have to be forced on players for some actions for example for transporting goods you get the merchant tag etc
    and if you tag yourself as a murderer and use the tag to randomly kill, that should be a one way ticket to permadeath...

    but the biggest design decision will always remain imo: will you allow murderers to attack anyone indiscriminately... or create tagless players and if you create these tagless PVE players what would their role in the world be... what would they contribute to the game...

    just some of my thoughts on open world pvp...
    You start from the end - the current mechanisms. Again L2 and Albion - in the first you have experience loss, in the second - full loot. Which is more harsh? The answer is L2, as you need more time to get the experience. But full loot obviously sounds harder. Actually there are not murders, loot and etc. - 
    Went into Lineage 2 Classic NA few weeks ago. It's dumbed down a lot. Like, instant lvl 20. So I grinded a bit for nostalgia, got eventually dual sls for free (lol). So I went to abandoned camp. There was some wannabe sword singer, with karma, and real bow of peril. 

    My and my buddy killed him. He dropped the bow. We now have millions of adena. 

    Fun times. 
    If you want early Lineage 2 experience, L2 Classic EU is where it is at or at least was when I played there.
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