More importantly,it is not about locking gear behind a difficult wall it is more about the developer THINKING this is the only way to do difficulty. sticking the term RAID in front of content does not mean diddly squat,it just means it is a wall that requires more people than should be needed.
Many games do this same idea,it is a dumb one,one that says the developer doesn't know how to create difficulty otherwise.You only NEED 4-6 people to partake in ANY form of difficulty.You need a tank,a healer,a debuff/buffer and a dps.This is why 6 was consider a good normal for a group size,allows you to add in 2 others of your choice.So for example in FFXI we would have a Thief,a great puller and also utilized the ability to transfer more hate on to the tank. I am not even sure any other game besides FFXI had a class that would help transfer hate in a setup formation,some do it lazy like with a simple spell or a solo act.
So for years 6 was the normal and i have seen NO reason what so ever to break away from 5/6 or even down to 4.
I feel after a short time,the term RAID became more of a stigma,a term to use to brag that you did something amazing when in reality,especially in a gear based game,you did VERY little other than wear top notch gear.
Long winded point,some devs been doing it wrong for a long time,time to wise up and change from poor ideas.
They do it that way because it is what has been done. It is easy content to control. It is predictable for players. Imagine having to get legendary items like in fantasy. Random one time events, found, character random heirloom, created by a great crafter. It is a lot harder to program and balance.
When I played WoW (well, one of the numerous times I played WoW), a new expansion came out. Players in our guild who wanted to be on the raid team were required to: (a) get the best of the expansion's blue gear; (b) get keyed for the new raid encounter; (c) reach max level; and (d) accomplish all that within two weeks. [I am sure there are other guilds that are much stricter, but that seemed like a lot to me at the time].
Then we had to go into the new raid and learn the fights, which took hours and hours and hours, and meant dying again and again and again.
Then, when we were able to master a fight and move on to the next one, you didn't necessarily get an item, or the item you really wanted. Occasionally you got an item. The rest of the time you were grinding out the encounters so that your guildmates could get loot too.
You don't just go on a raid and come home with a wheelbarrow full of gear. It takes months of dedicated play to get outfitted.
On top of that, if you are in a progression guild, it's even harder because you are on a clock, trying to get something done first. I have done that too in other games.
So after going through a lot of things like that I read here that the point of it all is to look down our noses at some non-raider or soloist? New flash. Raiders aren't thinking about you. They don't raid because of you. They do it for the challenge, and they expect to be correspondingly rewarded for that challenge.
If someone develops Chutes and Ladders online where solo players get best in slot gear for yanking their pud down Newbie Meadow, great, have fun playing that. I won't be there to see it.
And it sounds like an artificial gear factory.
No disrespect but I do not care how hard you work for an aspect of a game. I literally spent 1000s of hours chasing a hoops dream and have a few trophies and bad knees to show for it. No pro money or even scholarship. And that is on the lazy end of things for high competition. In the end nobody cares and nobody owes me anything for a game.
You CAN be rewarded with gear but it doesn't preclude other playstyles from getting their own gear. You think PvPs don't spend hours honing their gear and skill against non scripted players and die over and over?
The best gear should always go to those who work the hardest period. Allowing people to make the best gear in game and simply sell it doesn't feel right to me.
The best gear should always go to those who work the hardest period. Allowing people to make the best gear in game and simply sell it doesn't feel right to me.
You know, in some games it's the crafters who "work" the hardest in a game.
As to what people consider "hard" in a video game where objectively nothing really is, that's probably a great topic for another thread.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If someone develops Chutes and Ladders online where solo players get best in slot gear for yanking their pud down Newbie Meadow, great, have fun playing that. I won't be there to see it.
I really wish this was true.
But this is exactly what happened with GW2, at the start we all could.. Umm what did you call it "Yank puds down in Newbee Meadow" and get the best gear in the game, no grind, super fun place for the filthy unwashed casual masses, and after that, is was all about looks and style,(It was dubbed Fashion Wars 2, for a very lit reason) like.. damn I needed to grind 200 hours for a thong just to watch my characters ass jiggle, kind of stuff, but nothing beyond cosmetics.
Anyway, as opposed to being your caliber of player, with a sense of self worth, who would not play some lame ass filthy casual crap, and instead would do the right thing and go off and play a game with the challenge already there for you, a bunch of wanna-be's and elitist pricks just kept yanking their puds in Newbee Meadows bitching about how they needed more challenge, and how they needed something bigger and better for their huge ass e-dicks.
Well Anet gave them what they asked for, and it screwed over the whole game over, and they have been going down ever since HoT.7
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It is 2019. Why are there still gear factories for elite content anyways? You have whole guilds with the same legendary crap raiding the same raids over and over. It's not really legendary anymore.
How about one time use spontaneously spawned raid level dungeons, forts or whatever that may have legendary or two for some?
I can guarantee that those elite guys would cry they can't get legendary stuff at their factories. They couldn't stomach the randomness of not having predictable and documented raids.
The best gear should always go to those who work the hardest period. Allowing people to make the best gear in game and simply sell it doesn't feel right to me.
sigh, these folks come from a different generation of MMO gaming.
This was probably way before your time but I remember a game where everything was crafted by players and most gear that dropped was crap. Heck even any looted enhancements that dropped off certain mobs were just crating material and you still needed a crafter to make the finished product. Was it easy to craft? mostly, was it easy to be good at it?
It is 2019. Why are there still gear factories for elite content anyways? You have whole guilds with the same legendary crap raiding the same raids over and over. It's not really legendary anymore.
How about one time use spontaneously spawned raid level dungeons, forts or whatever that may have legendary or two for some?
I can guarantee that those elite guys would cry they can't get legendary stuff at their factories. They couldn't stomach the randomness of not having predictable and documented raids.
Oh.. you mean like how EQ did it, with a once a Week Raid Boss, and the first person that got it, got the loot, and everyone else just had to suck it.. apparently end-game hardcore raiders didn't like being second place.. the irony.. huh?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The best gear should always go to those who work the hardest period. Allowing people to make the best gear in game and simply sell it doesn't feel right to me.
But you do not work hard to raid. You complete tedious mind numbing grinds to raid and then run the same one over and over to get a rng chance at a drop you need.
I enjoy raiding in certain games but once something is on farm then it is tedium and little more. Gear should be available from a variety of tasks. Raid gear is little more than a carrot to get you on to the next raid.
I think the definition of what work is has been lost. If your arguement is that no one would raid if gear was available outside of raiding then I think that speaks about how much fun raiding really is more than anything
If you are playing a Themepark MMORPG that is what you are going to get. A RAID treadmill. At least in games like Classic WOW Raiding was not as much of a Treadmill as they are today. Current games raiding systems suck.
The REAL problem is basing your game on GEAR at all. They should copy out SWG did gear, you bought gear from Crafters and ever crafter made different quality gear. The best gear was the gear you found from a crafter friend or a vendor you knew about.
Crying about Raid gear dropping only from Raids in a Themepark game is stupid. That is how these games are made. Play the Themepark game you might win a prize. Honestly Crying about Gear at all at this point in MMORPGS is stupid as hell. Honestly it is. Until you get the CASUAL ENTITLED gamer out of MMORPGs where if they are not mailed gear daily they will quit. There is no good solution. I will give you a very good solution here, Do TBC Heroic 5 mans that are VERY hard. But have 20 to 50 of them, have the loot tables across all the dungeons and let people get that gear from doing the different dungeons. Problem Solved. But you cant have that with people who cannot do anything more than a 15 minute AOE feast dungeon run with a 99.99999999% chance of success because if its too hard Joe I fucking suck because I have a JOB does not want to do more than push a few buttons for 15 minutes a week.
Agreed, the only exception I'd make is when the game includes PvP as a large/main component, but allows such raid gear to make players abnormally powerful. Make PvPers grind PvE raid content to earn a level playing field in PvP? Genius! /sarcasm
I'm fine with multiple gear paths based on different types of content as long as there's exclusivity at the end. I think that's extremely important.
Unfortunately devs don't seem to understand how to itemize gear for different play styles and instead fall back on lazy design with everyone and everything bound to a few similar "stats".
This is what i'd like to see:
Gear for countering raid bosses
Gear to improve exploration
Gear to improve solo leveling
Gear to improve group leveling
Gear to improve crafting and gathering
Gear to improve building and housing
Give players their own gear with as many play style boosting stats as is acceptable and stop funneling everyone into one set and a few similar stats. I don't want to hear excuses from devs as to why this is too difficult. Stop being generic and lazy. Give us something interesting.
This is a great question, and it really gets to the core idea of gamers in general.
See, it is not so much Raid Gear, but simply the fact that it is the 'Best Gear" or often called "BiS" gear, and any gamer, no matter how casual or hardcore, still wants the best gear the game has to offer.
In fact, gear grinds are a staple in game design to keep players, playing the game. Because developers know, that all gamers will chase the shiny lootz. It's a very easy reward system that they can put in to keep activity levels up.
The thing here, is that if you have a whole demographic of players that are not going after the Shiny Lootz, this starts to rise some challenging questions, like, what are they doing with their game time? What motivates these players? and What can we do to retain this players, if not for gear/level grind?
See, the thing is, Casuals are a Surprisingly Profitable Demographic, they often have Jobs and thus money to spend on their hobbies. So game companies want to keep this demographic around, as they are what keeps the game around.
But. if you don't know what makes them tick, what keeps them coming back, and what moves them to spend money... well.. you are setting yourself up for a much harder sale, which, lets be honest, no company wants to make the sale harder on themselves.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I still think less people raid than people who do raid.
I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”
I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).
Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there.
So if a small percentage raid generally raid... doesnt that mean a small percentage excluding WoW? Can you obtain top gear through casual LFR?
You are just making assumptions about the percentages.
But I'm not having that conversation with you today, because I will end up ranting about people who want ez-mode solo hand out games.
I am going by old percentages that said under 10 percent raid. I am also under the impression that LFR do yield highest tier gear.
Subjective and personal preference. The same argument could be made with PvP. Do you feel like you should be forced to PvP to get gear?
Last I remember, even the high count for active users running raids was only in the 20% range, and that was not for the newest raids either but the stage-down ones, with less people running the "current" raid.
Even at WoW's peak that was generally true. Raiding just has never been as big of a thing as some people seem to think.
Raids themselves are largely just a development crutch that is hard to get away from since most other forms of endgame content is considerably more costly to produce than a self-contained dungeon that can be looped.
I think this is one of the reasons GW1 was popular, the gear drops were random, you could get a perfect ice sword or trash doing any activity , yeah you could farm ecto,s
The only problem I see to it is where some raid gear drops like candy to step up people in raid guilds -- like the plane of time in Everquest had some gear like that. I actually enjoyed the roleplaying server on EQ1 where you could only have 1 character and the loot drops from raids WERE tradable. Note making raid loot tradable does destroy the value of some high end group loot.
At the very least it would be nice if raid gear were tradable to anyone who successfully did the raid once(or possibly commonish raid items for once and rare ones for say five times or even ten). That way being horribly unlucky wouldn't hold you way back.
The only problem I see to it is where some raid gear drops like candy to step up people in raid guilds -- like the plane of time in Everquest had some gear like that. I actually enjoyed the roleplaying server on EQ1 where you could only have 1 character and the loot drops from raids WERE tradable. Note making raid loot tradable does destroy the value of some high end group loot.
Actually think that's a bit of a reasonable compromise for older systems heavily invested in the raid mechanic.
The value of raid gear that's not tradeable is purely predicated on the scarcity that's produced through the finite number of players willing to participate in the content, and who don't collect more than one or two of the same pieces.
It's not that trading gear suddenly make it easier to obtain it, it's just that it now has a reason to be farmed for by those that do raid beyond the need of one set for one character. As a consequence, it keeps some players and guilds more active in the raid content, and creates another component for the player economy.
I've personally always had the preference of crafted gear having greater relevance, and as such the idea of being able to farm up "legendary" crafting components from endgame content that could then be brought to market and turned into a unique/customized item, which extends it's value somewhat by the fact that legendaries would then be more than a finite list of prefab loot and instead a one-off each time one gets made.
I always loved the excuse that 'if raids didn't have better / exclusive gear then no one would do them'... so basically, you're saying raids are bad content design?
Also, I'm not so sure it's about 'raids' specifically as it is about difficulty, which is fair enough, it's just that MMO developers have got it into their heads that 'difficult content' needs to require more people (as if some of the most difficult games ever made weren't single player).
Personally, I don't mind FFXIVs approach where 'raid' level gear can be acquired through smaller group / less annoying activities over time (and the raids with the highest body count aren't the most difficult) ... now if only gear meant something in FFXIV. (Oh, and savage mode dungeons please; dance step raid bosses with a hard DPS check are not appealing).
I still think less people raid than people who do raid.
I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”
I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).
Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there.
So if a small percentage raid generally raid... doesnt that mean a small percentage excluding WoW? Can you obtain top gear through casual LFR?
You are just making assumptions about the percentages.
But I'm not having that conversation with you today, because I will end up ranting about people who want ez-mode solo hand out games.
I am going by old percentages that said under 10 percent raid. I am also under the impression that LFR do yield highest tier gear.
Subjective and personal preference. The same argument could be made with PvP. Do you feel like you should be forced to PvP to get gear?
With LFR not only making raids easier, but also making them shorter, as they break the raids into sections with about 3 bosses, I'm sure more of the population is participating. Joining normal or heroic raids from custom group finder is also pretty easy. A lot of guilds still lack the numbers to run them by themselves, so solo you can still join an organized group.
The raid gear iLevel is lowest for LFR. So is the iLevel required to queue. You get the best gear from heroic version of the last raid of the expansion.
I'm not sure if the PvP gear you can get in BfA is equivalent to raid gear. Previously raid gear want good for PvP and vice versa. That made sense as far as I'm concerned.
Decent level crafted gear can be made from mats you get in Raids, but from what I have seen you will likely get better stuff before you can make it. So I know I have used it more for gearing up alts. There is a lot of useful stuff you can get from crafting, exclusively or cheaper overall. bags, enchants, follower equipment, mounts. But yeah, crafting in WoW is pretty lame now, and always has been as far as I'm concerned. For the amount of effort involved you should be able to make decent gear for your level. I found while leveling I couldn't only make lower level gear. Maybe now that the zones match your level you could actually make useful stuff, but I use Heirloom stuff now, so can't say.
Raid gear is definitely only required for raiding. You can actually get pretty high level stuff from other content now. Basic question content is quite easy without raid gear. So my question to you is why would you feel you need that gear?
You need to reward challenging content with better rewards or it loses its appeal. I think that is one area where WoW gets it right.
The best gear should always go to those who work the hardest period. Allowing people to make the best gear in game and simply sell it doesn't feel right to me.
But you do not work hard to raid. You complete tedious mind numbing grinds to raid and then run the same one over and over to get a rng chance at a drop you need.
I enjoy raiding in certain games but once something is on farm then it is tedium and little more. Gear should be available from a variety of tasks. Raid gear is little more than a carrot to get you on to the next raid.
I think the definition of what work is has been lost. If your arguement is that no one would raid if gear was available outside of raiding then I think that speaks about how much fun raiding really is more than anything
Raiding isnt hard? That coordination? Reaction time? Memory testing? Hours of paitence for team members struggling? (Mythic raid teams in WoW) Your darn right they work hard, yes its a game, but anything that takes mental fortitude like that is hard work the brains a muscle that needs to be worked out too. Joke all you want about scripted fights, but how many have actually downed mythic raids before the next one was out. Theres a reason raiders sell these runs.
Yes, gear should be locked , give something for those guys to strive for. If you dont raid mythic why need mythic raid gear? To farm your dailies? So those people who put the time/effort into raiding should have the same pve clear speed as you? Come on...... most games, unless u raid the highest level, you dont need the highest level gear. You can easily play end game questing in wow in quest reward gear, world quests, LFD,LFGRaiders gear. Raiders do cause there tackling the next challenge, the one you opt out of.
People talk about elitism but this is just a childs cry about another kid having something in the park that he doesnt. Cant have it all.
The gear is a reward, rewards are based on the deed. I cant play all day, so does that mean gold looted be capped daily? I mean, its not fair cause i have a job and kids and everyone out there is more rich then me. I want gold too, maybe they should just mail me gold?
Im not a elite raider, im happy for those guys, achieving there goal, and are rewarded for it. I enjoy walking thru the city seeing people in the new stuff. You may look down on that as a goal, but what have most of the people done here in there life of any real importance? what were your goals? You cure cancer? Out of pocket build homes for homeless? Acquired enough money so you family bloodline doesnt ever feel poverety?
Why do you feel that the guy who put more time/effort into anything doesn't deserve more then you?
This isnt all directed towards your post Parrotfolk, im not good with multi quotes haha
Just a quick note, things like coordination, reaction time, and memory testing are all components of play predicated on the core mechanics of any given game.
IE; If the core gameplay does not support it, then raids cannot possess it. If the core gameplay does support it, then it is not an element beholden to raids.
Trying to sell raids on the idea that they have a higher standard of gameplay than the rest of the game is in general either an indicator that the argument is disingenuous, or that the game design itself is fundamentally flawed as the developers are not leveraging the depth of their game's design in the full breadth of it's potential user experience.
The best gear should always go to those who work the hardest period. Allowing people to make the best gear in game and simply sell it doesn't feel right to me.
But you do not work hard to raid. You complete tedious mind numbing grinds to raid and then run the same one over and over to get a rng chance at a drop you need.
I enjoy raiding in certain games but once something is on farm then it is tedium and little more. Gear should be available from a variety of tasks. Raid gear is little more than a carrot to get you on to the next raid.
I think the definition of what work is has been lost. If your arguement is that no one would raid if gear was available outside of raiding then I think that speaks about how much fun raiding really is more than anything
Raiding isnt hard? That coordination? Reaction time? Memory testing? Hours of paitence for team members struggling? (Mythic raid teams in WoW) Your darn right they work hard, yes its a game, but anything that takes mental fortitude like that is hard work the brains a muscle that needs to be worked out too. Joke all you want about scripted fights, but how many have actually downed mythic raids before the next one was out. Theres a reason raiders sell these runs.
Yes, gear should be locked , give something for those guys to strive for. If you dont raid mythic why need mythic raid gear? To farm your dailies? So those people who put the time/effort into raiding should have the same pve clear speed as you? Come on...... most games, unless u raid the highest level, you dont need the highest level gear. You can easily play end game questing in wow in quest reward gear, world quests, LFD,LFGRaiders gear. Raiders do cause there tackling the next challenge, the one you opt out of.
People talk about elitism but this is just a childs cry about another kid having something in the park that he doesnt. Cant have it all.
The gear is a reward, rewards are based on the deed. I cant play all day, so does that mean gold looted be capped daily? I mean, its not fair cause i have a job and kids and everyone out there is more rich then me. I want gold too, maybe they should just mail me gold?
Im not a elite raider, im happy for those guys, achieving there goal, and are rewarded for it. I enjoy walking thru the city seeing people in the new stuff. You may look down on that as a goal, but what have most of the people done here in there life of any real importance? what were your goals? You cure cancer? Out of pocket build homes for homeless? Acquired enough money so you family bloodline doesnt ever feel poverety?
Why do you feel that the guy who put more time/effort into anything doesn't deserve more then you?
This isnt all directed towards your post Parrotfolk, im not good with multi quotes haha
Uh no.
See clearly stated there should be multiple paths.
Just a quick note, things like coordination, reaction time, and memory testing are all components of play predicated on the core mechanics of any given game.
IE; If the core gameplay does not support it, then raids cannot possess it. If the core gameplay does support it, then it is not an element beholden to raids.
Trying to sell raids on the idea that they have a higher standard of gameplay than the rest of the game is in general either an indicator that the argument is disingenuous, or that the game design itself is fundamentally flawed as the developers are not leveraging the depth of their game's design in the full breadth of it's potential user experience.
Unfortunatly im not the sharpest knife in the drawer (Imma butterknife ) So I might not fully understand your reply. Raids do have alot higher standard of gameplay, its far more unforgiving and requires a great deal of focus.
But those exact things are skills. Valuable skills. Id say all these top tier raiders have very well developed minds. These skills are not limited to just gaming, reaction time is a major element in boxing, you lack a simple "video game" skill your toast in the ring. Im not sure you understand my argue point there, raids are hard, they take intelligence to a great degree, and fortitude.
Participation rewards are always nice (aka welfare epics they get called in WoW) but the real rewards goto the hardest working, its not a job for most people. Shouldnt have to be a job to put extra work in. But I fully support the idea of always rewarding the hardest working people. Might inspire them to work harder in other areas of there life, that stuff isnt equal, your not just handed the best of the best, you want it, come take it.
You could shorten your response to saying you just think the devs are bad at game development then, as that would fall into the latter category of leveraging elements that could be applied to a much broader scope of the game.
EDIT: For clarification.
Nothing done in a raid can be done without those things being coded into the game. That much should be a given.
By that token, any element of a raid that you perceive to be of a higher standard than the rest of the gameplay or user experience, that was a choice of the developer to neglect the rest of the game to focus on only delivering that content through raids, even though those very same mechanics, challenges, and standards could be applied elsewhere.
Especially so if they are already scripted into the game.
IE, if a raid contains "alot higher standard of gameplay" than the rest of the game, then it was a choice on the developer's part to neglect the rest of the user experience that could (and should) have been just as high of a standard.
The only real counterargument to leverage here is development budget. As prior mentioned, one of the biggest reason raids are still a thing mostly has to do with the fact that you can build a self-contained experience with it and milk the same gameplay loop more than if tried to pan that same amount of time and money into developing more content of almost any other variety. It's not the difficulty or whether or not they're popular, it's that they are the most economic form of endgame content.
I remember that being a framing statement of some old interview from a WoW dev, talking about comparing the cost of developing everything else to how many raids they could produce with the same budget.
You can flip this question and ask what harm is them having raid gear if they aren't raiding? Why can't single player content be challenging as well? Why can't a player get some gear for exploring an every place or completing very quest?
At the end of the day it is elitism. Raiders could be happy with unique gear.
Comments
No disrespect but I do not care how hard you work for an aspect of a game. I literally spent 1000s of hours chasing a hoops dream and have a few trophies and bad knees to show for it. No pro money or even scholarship. And that is on the lazy end of things for high competition. In the end nobody cares and nobody owes me anything for a game.
You CAN be rewarded with gear but it doesn't preclude other playstyles from getting their own gear. You think PvPs don't spend hours honing their gear and skill against non scripted players and die over and over?
As to what people consider "hard" in a video game where objectively nothing really is, that's probably a great topic for another thread.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But this is exactly what happened with GW2, at the start we all could.. Umm what did you call it "Yank puds down in Newbee Meadow" and get the best gear in the game, no grind, super fun place for the filthy unwashed casual masses, and after that, is was all about looks and style,(It was dubbed Fashion Wars 2, for a very lit reason) like.. damn I needed to grind 200 hours for a thong just to watch my characters ass jiggle, kind of stuff, but nothing beyond cosmetics.
Anyway, as opposed to being your caliber of player, with a sense of self worth, who would not play some lame ass filthy casual crap, and instead would do the right thing and go off and play a game with the challenge already there for you, a bunch of wanna-be's and elitist pricks just kept yanking their puds in Newbee Meadows bitching about how they needed more challenge, and how they needed something bigger and better for their huge ass e-dicks.
Well Anet gave them what they asked for, and it screwed over the whole game over, and they have been going down ever since HoT.7
How about one time use spontaneously spawned raid level dungeons, forts or whatever that may have legendary or two for some?
I can guarantee that those elite guys would cry they can't get legendary stuff at their factories. They couldn't stomach the randomness of not having predictable and documented raids.
The REAL problem is basing your game on GEAR at all. They should copy out SWG did gear, you bought gear from Crafters and ever crafter made different quality gear. The best gear was the gear you found from a crafter friend or a vendor you knew about.
Crying about Raid gear dropping only from Raids in a Themepark game is stupid. That is how these games are made. Play the Themepark game you might win a prize. Honestly Crying about Gear at all at this point in MMORPGS is stupid as hell. Honestly it is. Until you get the CASUAL ENTITLED gamer out of MMORPGs where if they are not mailed gear daily they will quit. There is no good solution. I will give you a very good solution here, Do TBC Heroic 5 mans that are VERY hard. But have 20 to 50 of them, have the loot tables across all the dungeons and let people get that gear from doing the different dungeons. Problem Solved. But you cant have that with people who cannot do anything more than a 15 minute AOE feast dungeon run with a 99.99999999% chance of success because if its too hard Joe I fucking suck because I have a JOB does not want to do more than push a few buttons for 15 minutes a week.
Those games aren't common, though.
Unfortunately devs don't seem to understand how to itemize gear for different play styles and instead fall back on lazy design with everyone and everything bound to a few similar "stats".
This is what i'd like to see:
- Gear for countering raid bosses
- Gear to improve exploration
- Gear to improve solo leveling
- Gear to improve group leveling
- Gear to improve crafting and gathering
- Gear to improve building and housing
Give players their own gear with as many play style boosting stats as is acceptable and stop funneling everyone into one set and a few similar stats. I don't want to hear excuses from devs as to why this is too difficult. Stop being generic and lazy. Give us something interesting.See, it is not so much Raid Gear, but simply the fact that it is the 'Best Gear" or often called "BiS" gear, and any gamer, no matter how casual or hardcore, still wants the best gear the game has to offer.
In fact, gear grinds are a staple in game design to keep players, playing the game. Because developers know, that all gamers will chase the shiny lootz. It's a very easy reward system that they can put in to keep activity levels up.
The thing here, is that if you have a whole demographic of players that are not going after the Shiny Lootz, this starts to rise some challenging questions, like, what are they doing with their game time? What motivates these players? and What can we do to retain this players, if not for gear/level grind?
See, the thing is, Casuals are a Surprisingly Profitable Demographic, they often have Jobs and thus money to spend on their hobbies. So game companies want to keep this demographic around, as they are what keeps the game around.
But. if you don't know what makes them tick, what keeps them coming back, and what moves them to spend money... well.. you are setting yourself up for a much harder sale, which, lets be honest, no company wants to make the sale harder on themselves.
Even at WoW's peak that was generally true. Raiding just has never been as big of a thing as some people seem to think.
Raids themselves are largely just a development crutch that is hard to get away from since most other forms of endgame content is considerably more costly to produce than a self-contained dungeon that can be looped.
At the very least it would be nice if raid gear were tradable to anyone who successfully did the raid once(or possibly commonish raid items for once and rare ones for say five times or even ten). That way being horribly unlucky wouldn't hold you way back.
The value of raid gear that's not tradeable is purely predicated on the scarcity that's produced through the finite number of players willing to participate in the content, and who don't collect more than one or two of the same pieces.
It's not that trading gear suddenly make it easier to obtain it, it's just that it now has a reason to be farmed for by those that do raid beyond the need of one set for one character. As a consequence, it keeps some players and guilds more active in the raid content, and creates another component for the player economy.
I've personally always had the preference of crafted gear having greater relevance, and as such the idea of being able to farm up "legendary" crafting components from endgame content that could then be brought to market and turned into a unique/customized item, which extends it's value somewhat by the fact that legendaries would then be more than a finite list of prefab loot and instead a one-off each time one gets made.
Also, I'm not so sure it's about 'raids' specifically as it is about difficulty, which is fair enough, it's just that MMO developers have got it into their heads that 'difficult content' needs to require more people (as if some of the most difficult games ever made weren't single player).
Personally, I don't mind FFXIVs approach where 'raid' level gear can be acquired through smaller group / less annoying activities over time (and the raids with the highest body count aren't the most difficult) ... now if only gear meant something in FFXIV. (Oh, and savage mode dungeons please; dance step raid bosses with a hard DPS check are not appealing).
The raid gear iLevel is lowest for LFR. So is the iLevel required to queue. You get the best gear from heroic version of the last raid of the expansion.
I'm not sure if the PvP gear you can get in BfA is equivalent to raid gear. Previously raid gear want good for PvP and vice versa. That made sense as far as I'm concerned.
Decent level crafted gear can be made from mats you get in Raids, but from what I have seen you will likely get better stuff before you can make it. So I know I have used it more for gearing up alts. There is a lot of useful stuff you can get from crafting, exclusively or cheaper overall. bags, enchants, follower equipment, mounts. But yeah, crafting in WoW is pretty lame now, and always has been as far as I'm concerned. For the amount of effort involved you should be able to make decent gear for your level. I found while leveling I couldn't only make lower level gear. Maybe now that the zones match your level you could actually make useful stuff, but I use Heirloom stuff now, so can't say.
Raid gear is definitely only required for raiding. You can actually get pretty high level stuff from other content now. Basic question content is quite easy without raid gear. So my question to you is why would you feel you need that gear?
You need to reward challenging content with better rewards or it loses its appeal. I think that is one area where WoW gets it right.
Yes, gear should be locked , give something for those guys to strive for. If you dont raid mythic why need mythic raid gear? To farm your dailies? So those people who put the time/effort into raiding should have the same pve clear speed as you? Come on...... most games, unless u raid the highest level, you dont need the highest level gear. You can easily play end game questing in wow in quest reward gear, world quests, LFD,LFGRaiders gear. Raiders do cause there tackling the next challenge, the one you opt out of.
People talk about elitism but this is just a childs cry about another kid having something in the park that he doesnt. Cant have it all.
The gear is a reward, rewards are based on the deed. I cant play all day, so does that mean gold looted be capped daily? I mean, its not fair cause i have a job and kids and everyone out there is more rich then me. I want gold too, maybe they should just mail me gold?
Im not a elite raider, im happy for those guys, achieving there goal, and are rewarded for it. I enjoy walking thru the city seeing people in the new stuff. You may look down on that as a goal, but what have most of the people done here in there life of any real importance? what were your goals? You cure cancer? Out of pocket build homes for homeless? Acquired enough money so you family bloodline doesnt ever feel poverety?
Why do you feel that the guy who put more time/effort into anything doesn't deserve more then you?
This isnt all directed towards your post Parrotfolk, im not good with multi quotes haha
IE;
If the core gameplay does not support it, then raids cannot possess it.
If the core gameplay does support it, then it is not an element beholden to raids.
Trying to sell raids on the idea that they have a higher standard of gameplay than the rest of the game is in general either an indicator that the argument is disingenuous, or that the game design itself is fundamentally flawed as the developers are not leveraging the depth of their game's design in the full breadth of it's potential user experience.
See clearly stated there should be multiple paths.
But those exact things are skills. Valuable skills. Id say all these top tier raiders have very well developed minds. These skills are not limited to just gaming, reaction time is a major element in boxing, you lack a simple "video game" skill your toast in the ring. Im not sure you understand my argue point there, raids are hard, they take intelligence to a great degree, and fortitude.
Participation rewards are always nice (aka welfare epics they get called in WoW) but the real rewards goto the hardest working, its not a job for most people. Shouldnt have to be a job to put extra work in. But I fully support the idea of always rewarding the hardest working people. Might inspire them to work harder in other areas of there life, that stuff isnt equal, your not just handed the best of the best, you want it, come take it.
EDIT: For clarification.
Nothing done in a raid can be done without those things being coded into the game. That much should be a given.
By that token, any element of a raid that you perceive to be of a higher standard than the rest of the gameplay or user experience, that was a choice of the developer to neglect the rest of the game to focus on only delivering that content through raids, even though those very same mechanics, challenges, and standards could be applied elsewhere.
Especially so if they are already scripted into the game.
IE, if a raid contains "alot higher standard of gameplay" than the rest of the game, then it was a choice on the developer's part to neglect the rest of the user experience that could (and should) have been just as high of a standard.
The only real counterargument to leverage here is development budget. As prior mentioned, one of the biggest reason raids are still a thing mostly has to do with the fact that you can build a self-contained experience with it and milk the same gameplay loop more than if tried to pan that same amount of time and money into developing more content of almost any other variety. It's not the difficulty or whether or not they're popular, it's that they are the most economic form of endgame content.
I remember that being a framing statement of some old interview from a WoW dev, talking about comparing the cost of developing everything else to how many raids they could produce with the same budget.
At the end of the day it is elitism. Raiders could be happy with unique gear.