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After Max Level

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  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,410
    Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

    Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?
    These things should happen through out the game not at max level. So you want the real game to start at max level? 
    AlBQuirky




  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,489
    Quizzical said:
    But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point before maxing out levels.

    Fixed that for you.  The overwhelming majority of players who pick up a given game won't get that far into it.  If developers could get half of the people who picked up their game to stick with it all the way to the level cap and then immediately quit, that would be a huge victory unless you hit the level cap almost immediately
    Good point.

    Once upon a time....

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 953

    That's a detailed answer and a fine job.
    But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point after maxing out levels.
    You show some good stuff in this post, but it doesn't seem to work.

    This isn't the whole picture.  I am posting on this site now because I have no game to play.  My brother-in-law played WoW and only wow since like 05/06 until a couple years ago.  He then played that battle royal game from the EQ people until he switched to unknown player.  He has played that since (I think, when he switched to playing non-rpgs I stopped paying attention to the drivel he has to say about games).  

    Plenty of people absolutely hate leveling and want to focus on the gameplay aspect they do enjoy, hence the popularity of MOBAs and BRs, etc.  Plenty of people only enjoy max level and raiding in an mmorpg.  

    This site has a large mix of different kinds of players, but it seems it is mostly casual players that hop from the current big deal game of the moment to the next regardless of genre.  You also have very niche players like me who likes a small number of very specific games for very specific reasons.  There are people here who focus on pvp sandbox mmos or survival games, etc.  

    How may people here skipped this thread because it had level in the title and they don't play games with a leveling system?  How many people that posted, like me, would have never seen this post if they had an interesting game to play right now?

    I'm not saying you got bad data - you just got very incomplete data from a small subset of people.  I've also noticed over the years that a lot game players don't really put a ton of thought into what they actually want and like.  Its like asking a female what she looks for in a guy - her answers rarely matches they guys she actually dates, so there is what they think they like evrsus what they actually like.  

    I'd be interested if someone made a poll asking these same people how long they ever played end-game of an mmo.  I am willing to bet people who said they stop playing at max played at least one game at max level for a good amount of time.  Two months, six months, one year, two years, etc.  Data works better when you can move away from opinion and capture actual behavior/actions.


    GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,489
    Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

    Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?
    These things should happen through out the game not at max level. So you want the real game to start at max level? 
    This isn't about what I want. It's about the general failure in the industry to keep people playing after max level. And what people would want at that point.

    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,489
    blamo2000 said:

    That's a detailed answer and a fine job.
    But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point after maxing out levels.
    You show some good stuff in this post, but it doesn't seem to work.

    This isn't the whole picture.  I am posting on this site now because I have no game to play.  My brother-in-law played WoW and only wow since like 05/06 until a couple years ago.  He then played that battle royal game from the EQ people until he switched to unknown player.  He has played that since (I think, when he switched to playing non-rpgs I stopped paying attention to the drivel he has to say about games).  

    Plenty of people absolutely hate leveling and want to focus on the gameplay aspect they do enjoy, hence the popularity of MOBAs and BRs, etc.  Plenty of people only enjoy max level and raiding in an mmorpg.  

    This site has a large mix of different kinds of players, but it seems it is mostly casual players that hop from the current big deal game of the moment to the next regardless of genre.  You also have very niche players like me who likes a small number of very specific games for very specific reasons.  There are people here who focus on pvp sandbox mmos or survival games, etc.  

    How may people here skipped this thread because it had level in the title and they don't play games with a leveling system?  How many people that posted, like me, would have never seen this post if they had an interesting game to play right now?

    I'm not saying you got bad data - you just got very incomplete data from a small subset of people.  I've also noticed over the years that a lot game players don't really put a ton of thought into what they actually want and like.  Its like asking a female what she looks for in a guy - her answers rarely matches they guys she actually dates, so there is what they think they like evrsus what they actually like.  

    I'd be interested if someone made a poll asking these same people how long they ever played end-game of an mmo.  I am willing to bet people who said they stop playing at max played at least one game at max level for a good amount of time.  Two months, six months, one year, two years, etc.  Data works better when you can move away from opinion and capture actual behavior/actions.


    Hey, I'm not a professional. :p
    Opinion is exactly what I'm after here. Just the basic wants.

    Once upon a time....

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,531
    Over time the developer advances the game from archaic to more advanced wood/stone to metal to advanced tech,ballista,armored pets/wagons etc etc.Over time ,new enemies are introduced,new abilities to traverse the seas and deep under the sea.
    Eventually crafting evolves into Airships,new civilizations discovered,hidden caves,secret passages,puzzles to solve that change everyday.

    The developer would charge a subscription and to warrant that cost they would be continually working on the game and NOT simply charging sub fees to get rich ripping us off for our loyalty.NO expansions to again rip us off ,simply continue to build the game and EARN your subscription fees by delivering a good product that evolves over time.

    Up to this point,mmorpg developers have been ripping us off,they also have NOT been giving us their best effort,time to change that up,there does not NEED to be a end game..end level.FFXI's sub class system design with over 20 classes meant YEARS of developing your character,no altaholics,everything learned on the same character.

    New skills to learn by seeking out hidden teachers,...ship building,deep sea diving,taming,breeding,learn new structures ,perhaps pneumatic's,hydrolic's,over time the developer adds new ideas and technology,the game never needs to think about levels.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,281
    Quizzical said:
    But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point before maxing out levels.

    Fixed that for you.  The overwhelming majority of players who pick up a given game won't get that far into it.  If developers could get half of the people who picked up their game to stick with it all the way to the level cap and then immediately quit, that would be a huge victory unless you hit the level cap almost immediately
    Good point.
    Well, the reality is most players never "finish"any game, so not surprising most don't stay with a MMORPG long enough to reach end game.

    It's a market full of hoppers....


    Slapshot1188AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,854
    I've never played a game that was so good it was worth giving up all other games.
    AlBQuirky

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,883
     One of the things that has kept me playing UO for these 21 years is there really is no End Game , always stuff to do and/or ways to challenge your build ...
    Kyleran
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,489
    Scorchien said:
     One of the things that has kept me playing UO for these 21 years is there really is no End Game , always stuff to do and/or ways to challenge your build ...
    I quite about 8 years ago, after playing since the first day.
    I always wondered about some of the mysteries, said to be bugged or whatever, but if they actually were still waiting to be figured out. Maybe the ones that weren't bugged were figured out and I just didn't know it.
    There was a lot of stuff that was kept secret for a very long time, such as the location of the super rare items.

    Did anyone ever figure out the tiles in Khaldun (?) Dungeon, the ones that changed as you stepped on them?

    I often wonder if a deep and diverse system of mysteries wouldn't be a boon to a game's longevity.

    Once upon a time....

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

    Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?
    Almost every MMORPG has a means by which continual progression happens long after max level.

    In fact, a lot of games use these as "Steps" as opposed to some mythical "Max",

    Let me use an example, in the MMO Guild Wars 2.

    When your character reaches max level at 80th, that unlocks Mastery Lines, this also opens up things like questing for Legendary Armor, Weapons, Gear, and the ability to to higher level fractals and raids.

    In short, getting to "Max Level" was just the end of one leveling process and the start of others. Most MMO's are built this way, often providing all kinds of progressive grinds, even if not directly called "levels" they are for all mechanical sense, just more levels to the game.

    Now what do you get if at some point you remove these levels, you remove these grinds?

    Well you end up with either something Second Life, which is purely a social game, the whole game is devoid of levels, so all it is, is purely exploration, building, social, and economics. If that was what you were looking for, there is no point to put in pointless preemptive grind to get to this point, and it's better to simply build or play a game like this from the start.

    For the players that are competitive, like combat, but also do not want to deal with any kind of Grind, you have games like Apex Legends, or Overwatch, which is all about the thrill of the fight and combat, with none of the pesky grind leading up to it.

    In the end, an MMORPG is a game that is about the journey, this is why they often have endlessly progressive systems designed around the accumulation of character power, and all other facets of the game, are driven by that motive.

    IE: Dungeons are done for the rewards, not for the enjoyment, or social, or what have you, they are done mainly for the rewards.

    GW2, proved this, when they opted to remove Dungeons from their game, and were looking to move players away from them, they simply nerfed the rewards and the vast majority of dungeon runs died overnight.

    So if at some point, a player was to truly max out their character, chances are they would stop playing, take a break, till the next expansion.. which.. is why games put out expansions, and there is always a surge of players returning to the game, to make to the new highest level, to max out their characters once again.

    So.. what happens really, to players once they Max Out in a game.. they take a break, sometimes they move on to other games, sometimes they just stop playing altogether.

    Very few, will stay around and grind for the sake of grinding, which is why MMORPG's become once you have maxed out, pointless worthless grind for the sake of grind.

    Does this answer your question?
    You cite Guild Wars 2, but it is quite an outlier.  A large fraction of the game's content is intended to be done at the level cap, including all of both expansions and most of the dungeons.

    Most MMORPGs have only some token sliver of content that is intended to be done at the level cap.  They may still have progression that rewards you for looping that tiny sliver of content endlessly.  But that's a much weaker reason to continue playing the game than actual content.
    I used GW2, yes, because a lot of people cite this game as an example of Level Scaling, and trying to use it to justify a lack of levels, where, they seem to miss that GW2 uses all kinds of advancement features (alternate level processes) to keep players grinding and playing their game longe after they have finished their first 80 generic levels.

    With all that said, I agree with you, that a lot of more generic MMO's do end up bottle-necking their end game, often falling back on such typical things like raids and gear grind, with, Gear Grind being really nothing more than "Equipment Leveling" which, is just another leveling system to put in incremental power and progression for players to grind for, once they get to max level.

    But this was not the case for many games I played, even more traditional ones, like Trove, the abundance of Maps you could do at max level while purely augmenting your power rank (Yay, another leveling system) seemed to give you more options, not less.

    Same with a game like Dungeons and Dragons Online. Now, DDO was a special case, they started the game with 10th level was Max, then they raised it to 12th, then 15th and finally, 20th, then they put in a Reincarnation System (none of this was "expansions" just normal updates), and then with the Menace of the Underdark Expansion, they added Epic Levels, which first was 24th, then it was 27th and then they raised it to 30th, and put in Epic Reincarnation (Again, all the level cap raises were just part of updates) So, they kept the game and levels going up and up with expansions and updates, as well as all kinds of gear grinds. 

    There are games that use these systems to keep players playing their game.

    But keep in mind, no system will suddenly make a suck game fun to play, and a lot of players simply may not enjoy the way the game feels, or maybe its progress is too slow. There are many reasons, and a lot of this, is the game simply was not attractive to them.

    Case in point, I played FFXIV, now I have nothing bad to say about the game, graphics were nice, game play was solid, but the game overall was not appealing to me. I played for a few hours, and left it. Now, that happens with a lot of games. Players simply do not click with the game, and try it out, see if they like it, and if not, move on.

    This is really the whole premise of a Free Trial, or F2 P games, to cast a large net, and try to get the people who would like your game, to play it, and in doing so, they also attract a lot of people that won't find the game what they are looking for, and there is nothing wrong with that.

    It is not a bad thing if people try your game realizes it's not for them. As long as enough of them think it is what they want to keep you afloat.

    That is the nature of the market.
    AmarantharAlBQuirky
  • PaRoXiTiCPaRoXiTiC Member UncommonPosts: 598
    In my opinion a true MMORPG should be extremely difficult and time consuming to reach Max level cap. The way Vanilla Knight Online used to be. Vertical progression, trinity system, insane grind to max level is what keeps players around.

    This themepark hit max level in a week and quit the game in a month circle jerk is getting old.
    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,281
    I've never played a game that was so good it was worth giving up all other games.
    That statement reflects more on how you are wired rather than an indicator of game quality.


    Octagon7711

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 551
    Quizzical said:
    Having a lot of content that is intended to be done at the max level is the way to do it.  See Guild Wars 1 and 2 for the best examples.
    A huge part of what keeps you playing GW1 after hitting level 20 is the ability to find new skills as you explore. Getting to level cap isn't even half the journey, as you still need to do the second half of the main campaign and all 3 expansions to get all of the skills you want. This was sorely missed in GW2. 
    Octagon7711
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,691
    Kyleran said:
    I've never played a game that was so good it was worth giving up all other games.
    That statement reflects more on how you are wired rather than an indicator of game quality.


    So you're saying I'm still single due to my awesome wiring? Great. That's going to be my new excuse from now on. 
    Octagon7711AmarantharAlBQuirkyKyleran
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Song of the Week: Blackfield by Blackfield from Blackfield (2005)
    • Currently Playing: Devil May Cry 1
    • Favorite Drink: Bruichladdich Black Art 5th 1992
    • Gaming Timeline: Arcade, Commodore 64, Amiga 500, SEGA, IBM, PS, PC, PS2, More PCs, PS3, Giant PC, PS4, No More PCs, PS4 Pro.
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,055
    centkin said:
    More levels.
    That's a viable answer.
    Whatever anyone wants to say, this is just a question and not meant as an attempt to start an argument. I just want to get a reading of what the locals think.
    I think centki gave a serious answer. In my case, i am not a PvPer or a raider so expect to see most or all of the story content by the time I reach max level because to me that's the end of the game until there are more levels or I decide to make an alt.
    Octagon7711Gobstopper3DAlBQuirky




  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,854
    Kyleran said:
    I've never played a game that was so good it was worth giving up all other games.
    That statement reflects more on how you are wired rather than an indicator of game quality.


    How players are wired is an indication of game quality.  Everyone plays based on subjective evaluations of the games they play.  Indeed games use this to attract and keep players.  Target audience.
    Gdemami

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 75
    Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

    Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?
    No surprise if you've seen my posts in another thread but I'm a total fanboy for alternate game play. I like dungeons, I don't mind some raiding but re-running these over and over to increase gear scores/stats doesn't appeal to me at all.

    I probably keep returning to FFXIV more than any other game in the past few years because it does a good job of introducing content that is parallel to or even entirely disconnected from the traditional item level grind. 
    AmarantharGdemamiAlBQuirky
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,009
    Kyleran said:
    I've never played a game that was so good it was worth giving up all other games.
    That statement reflects more on how you are wired rather than an indicator of game quality.


    How players are wired is an indication of game quality.  Everyone plays based on subjective evaluations of the games they play.  Indeed games use this to attract and keep players.  Target audience.
    That's like saying all RTS are bad because you don't like RTS. That's not true because there are poorly made and great RTS out there. That's why subjective evaluation is a false way to determine the quality of a game.
    Kyleran
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,104
    raiding
    AlBQuirky

    image

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,489
    centkin said:
    More levels.
    That's a viable answer.
    Whatever anyone wants to say, this is just a question and not meant as an attempt to start an argument. I just want to get a reading of what the locals think.
    I think centki gave a serious answer. In my case, i am not a PvPer or a raider so expect to see most or all of the story content by the time I reach max level because to me that's the end of the game until there are more levels or I decide to make an alt.
    I thought so too. I replied because I wanted people here to go ahead and just say what you all think. Without the detrimental arguments, but with some feedback for discussion's sake.

    I'll tell you all, I am very happy with how this thread turned out. I hope you all are too.
    (Had nothing to do with me, it was you all.)
    Posters have been much better here than in years past about posting discussions, it seems to me.

    And I've also learned some things about some games that I didn't know, too. There's some good stuff in here.

    AlBQuirkyrojoArcueid

    Once upon a time....

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,849
    AT max level it's time for me to quit the game and find a new one.  Raids bore me to death, PvP that's just really lacking any point and I loathe crafting and gear-hunting.  I prefer the trip rather than the destination, essentially.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 518
    Not that is easy to maintain/develop content for.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

    Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?
    Almost every MMORPG has a means by which continual progression happens long after max level.

    In fact, a lot of games use these as "Steps" as opposed to some mythical "Max",

    Let me use an example, in the MMO Guild Wars 2.

    When your character reaches max level at 80th, that unlocks Mastery Lines, this also opens up things like questing for Legendary Armor, Weapons, Gear, and the ability to to higher level fractals and raids.

    In short, getting to "Max Level" was just the end of one leveling process and the start of others. Most MMO's are built this way, often providing all kinds of progressive grinds, even if not directly called "levels" they are for all mechanical sense, just more levels to the game.

    Now what do you get if at some point you remove these levels, you remove these grinds?

    Well you end up with either something Second Life, which is purely a social game, the whole game is devoid of levels, so all it is, is purely exploration, building, social, and economics. If that was what you were looking for, there is no point to put in pointless preemptive grind to get to this point, and it's better to simply build or play a game like this from the start.

    For the players that are competitive, like combat, but also do not want to deal with any kind of Grind, you have games like Apex Legends, or Overwatch, which is all about the thrill of the fight and combat, with none of the pesky grind leading up to it.

    In the end, an MMORPG is a game that is about the journey, this is why they often have endlessly progressive systems designed around the accumulation of character power, and all other facets of the game, are driven by that motive.

    IE: Dungeons are done for the rewards, not for the enjoyment, or social, or what have you, they are done mainly for the rewards.

    GW2, proved this, when they opted to remove Dungeons from their game, and were looking to move players away from them, they simply nerfed the rewards and the vast majority of dungeon runs died overnight.

    So if at some point, a player was to truly max out their character, chances are they would stop playing, take a break, till the next expansion.. which.. is why games put out expansions, and there is always a surge of players returning to the game, to make to the new highest level, to max out their characters once again.

    So.. what happens really, to players once they Max Out in a game.. they take a break, sometimes they move on to other games, sometimes they just stop playing altogether.

    Very few, will stay around and grind for the sake of grinding, which is why MMORPG's become once you have maxed out, pointless worthless grind for the sake of grind.

    Does this answer your question?
    That's a detailed answer and a fine job.
    But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point after maxing out levels.
    You show some good stuff in this post, but it doesn't seem to work.

    What I put out is simplified, I mean lets be honest, no one is going to engulf the whole of all gamer motivation in one single forum post, so, we discussed the idea of how games used the basic principle of the carrot to keep gamers playing.

    It really is this basic idea.





    With the whole idea for players to never get the carrot (Fully max out) but, for it to be just close enough to keep them vested into playing. Which is why MMORPG's always have "something more for you to do" often in the form of additional grinds, and the higher you go, the more the grind for the less the reward. (This is a typical diminishing returns system that most games have)

    Some players burn out, others realize that it is simply not worth the effort for the additional power, while others, because they like the game anyway, it simply gives them something to do a justifies to them, logging in and playing.

    Using the image Above, simply put, some gamers quit games because at some point the Donkey feels that the Carrot is not attractive enough to put up with carrying the pig. (yes that is crudely simplistic)

    To use a game example, I loved GW2 core game, but I never went after a Legendary Weapon in GW2, the grind vs the reward, was simply not worth it to me. I have helped others get their legendary weapons and such, but never felt it was worth it to grind one out myself.

    The basic idea is that the core system, the foundation principle holds for all the MMO's that, there really is no "Max Level" there is simply finishing one kind of leveling grind and progressing to another. The tweaks and differences are how these leveling systems are designed, how their rewards work, how much fun they can be for the player.

    Someone once mentioned that it is not a grind, if you are having fun, and I think that is a core point here, the more a game resonates with you, the less the leveling systems feel like grinds, and are just a natural part of the game, something that you not only enjoy, but in fact look forward to, because, ultimately you are enjoying playing the game, so any excuse to keep playing is good enough.

    But even with the idea that some players may love a game, players overall need to feel like they are making some kind of progress towards a longer goal, just like a starting player at level 1 h is given a simple and easy to understand 'long term' goal to move up the basic levels to the ultimate max level, once they get there, once they complete that goal, they need a new something to work towards or they will move on to something else that provides that fresh feeling of progress again, the fastest way to lose your players, is stonewall or dead-end them.

    I am still simplifying the whole thing, it's complex, a lot more complex than I am going to put on a forum post, but this is the basic idea.
    AmatheJeffSpicoliAlBQuirkyAmaranthar
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,486
    Quizzical said:
    But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point before maxing out levels.

    Fixed that for you.  The overwhelming majority of players who pick up a given game won't get that far into it.  If developers could get half of the people who picked up their game to stick with it all the way to the level cap and then immediately quit, that would be a huge victory unless you hit the level cap almost immediately
    That was me, for sure. I never got to experience EQ's AA system. I had a 38th level Bard when I walked away from the game in 2004. It wasn't until Wizard101 I got to max level in 2009 with a solid group of friends made in game. After that, I got to max level in City of Heroes, again because I found an awesome Super Group to play with.

    I started playing MMORPGs in 2001. 8 years later, I got my first character to max level :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

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