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After Max Level

AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,514
Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?

Once upon a time....

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Comments

  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,473
    More levels.
    ScotKyleranlearis1rojoArcueidEronakisSteelhelm
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,514
    centkin said:
    More levels.
    That's a viable answer.
    Whatever anyone wants to say, this is just a question and not meant as an attempt to start an argument. I just want to get a reading of what the locals think.

    Once upon a time....

  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,620
    The best post-cap system I've encountered was the Alternate Advancement in EQ, where you could work almost endlessly on acquiring various skills and permanent buffs.  It basically resulted in sitting around in a group to grind mobs for XP, but that lead to a lot of socialization, which was the best part of EQ for me.
    blamo2000GdemamiVengeSunsoarAlBQuirkyKyleranTheocrituswingoodAmatheskadadEronakisand 1 other.
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 959
    For me, I need multiple things to do.  The arena is big for me.  I loved it in WoW when I played up through WotLK, and I loved it in Wildstar (2v2 mostly, I dislike 5v5).  

    I've never tried the base thing they have in WoW (or used to have at if they don't have it anymore), but that seems infinitely more interesting to me than the survival/pvp game type crafting a house, or guild city.  

    I never found raiding fun and has always been an annoying means to an end.  Some things that have worked as good carrots on a stick to keep me around end game is faction grinding, daily quests sometimes if there is good shit I can buy on an AH, some limited crafting systems like in either BC or WotLK you would get crafting drops you could use to make a good item, or improve items (or at least weapons).  Arena is a really big one.  Tinkering with my character build.  Leveling alts.  

    I'm sure there is more I'm missing, but in general that is my list.  I hate exploring.  I hate how map designers think its so fucking clever to make you run around like an idiot trying to figure out how to get to that spot.  And they add those spots everywhere.  I hate jumping puzzle nonsense too.  I hate having to collect nonsense (like books in ESO or all the various shit in DCUO).  I hate looking.  I hate pixel hunting.  I think housing and decoration is nonsense but I don't mind if a game has it and I can sell all the decoration nonsense to other players and profit off their weird Barbie Doll fun house fetish.  I really hate that crafting turned from something fun and somewhat useful to being 90% of games and no one calls them what they are (crafting games) but instead calls them Survival games or PVP games.  I hate a lot of things.  I could probably go on forever.  
    AlBQuirkyWaan
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 959
    The best post-cap system I've encountered was the Alternate Advancement in EQ, where you could work almost endlessly on acquiring various skills and permanent buffs.  It basically resulted in sitting around in a group to grind mobs for XP, but that lead to a lot of socialization, which was the best part of EQ for me.
    I'm not familiar with it in EQ but I enjoyed how they did it in EQ2.  AO did it really well too.  I'm not a huge fan of when it is endless, like with Rift.  I don't know if they changed it but Neverwinter Online had an AA type system tied to really heavy daily quest grinding in specific areas so was heavily time gated and I wasn't a big fan of it.


    But, I definitely agree AA is a great carrot on a stick in general.  
    AlBQuirky
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 6,937
    I like systems that have extremely varied loot. Diablo was the first major experience I had with that and Diablo 2 just put that on steroids. Star Wars Galaxies was another example for me which had some major RNG and a great chase for perfect gear. For me, it's the fine tuning which adds to the endgame.

    But I don't think very many people feel this way. Clearing difficult content is the goal in the current "meta" and why interrupt that with RNG (especially if you are playing with friends and others). And I am down to be a part of that. But I remember what it was like when gear was unique and interesting and to be honest, I miss it.
    AlBQuirkyAmarantharSteelhelm
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,000
    Season cards more card . i Currently playing waifu card collecting game
    AlBQuirkySteelhelm
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,642
    I personally dislike the design built around endgame. 

    For me, MMORPGs are very much about the vertical character progression. I prefer games in which the level cap is hardly obtainable (e.g. Lineage 2) and where the gameplay is not split between the leveling part and the endgame part.

    There is not much that would hold me in a game for long once I hit the max level. I think earlier expansion of WoW (vanilla, wotlk) were the only exception. I did enjoy raiding and PVP in that game.
    delete5230AlBQuirkyHatefullSteelhelm
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,894
    I personally dislike the design built around endgame. 

    For me, MMORPGs are very much about the vertical character progression. I prefer games in which the level cap is hardly obtainable (e.g. Lineage 2) and where the gameplay is not split between the leveling part and the endgame part.

    There is not much that would hold me in a game for long once I hit the max level. I think earlier expansion of WoW (vanilla, wotlk) were the only exception. I did enjoy raiding and PVP in that game.
    Vanilla WoW, it took the first time player 6 to 9 months to reach max level. 

    Two things came from that:  
    -the obvious, longevity. 
    -re-playability with different classes and other faction.

    Important:
    Max level in an mmorpg shouldn't be an issue... but it is now, since games have only 30 days of content. 
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,575
    edited June 2
    After max level and all content completed - I move on.

    So many other games to play, why would I stick around in a game with nothing more meaningful to do?
    immodiumConstantineMerusAlBQuirkywingoodrojoArcueidWaanGobstopper3DSteelhelm
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,107
    You could try a switch to a different sort of MMO, say theme park to top level then sandbox, but players of these different gaming styles are not necessarily going to want to spend a huge amount of time in every MMO gameplay variant. They may just want them park, just want sandbox.
    AlBQuirky

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,523
    edited June 2
    Alternate characters for me.
    Scot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,010
    Dungeon gameplay, raiding, PvP. I find content progression far more interesting than character progression.

    AlBQuirkyAmaranthar
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,811
    PvP. It’s time to see if you really learned how to play the game.
    mmolouAlBQuirkyAmarantharHatefullGyva02
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,381
    Something like DAOC did,  only had 50 levels, but there was originally 100 realm ranks (later expanded to 15) earned from fighting in the realm wars.

    Players earned a skill point for each rank to be spent on skills if their choice.

    They even thought to add skills which would appeal to PVE centric players, but made a huge design mistake where only PVP centric builds and skill points were viable in RVR.

    Worse, a player could not easily respec between the two, a huge mistake IMO.

    If players could have readily flipped between two set ups, one for PVE and one for PVP I think they would have gained a lot of traction with the casual PVP crowd.
    ConstantineMerusScotAlBQuirkywingoodHatefull

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • RhygarthRhygarth Member UncommonPosts: 257
    Anarchy Online had 200 normal lvl's that took some grinding to get to but i enjoyed it then they added 20 shadow lvl's and they took even longer but i still enjoyed it, MMO's these days you rush to max lvl in a few days then its boring raiding for gear
    ScotAlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    edited June 2
    Depends on the type of MMORPG. Ideally a blend of sandbox with procedurally generated themepark activities I would have...

    Kingdom building with option or mostly option PvP. 

    City building with multiple urban planning blueprints to make player cities look more realistic 

    Exploration for unique procedurally genrated resources/cultures/enemies in a super huge world.

    Trading localized and unique resources caravans.

    Crafting with unique materials and localized blueprints.

    World crafting events(repair old portal/building bridges/etc) to open new areas up. 

    Raiding based on world master seeded and procedurally generated threats to local game world.

    Questing being one time procedurally generated and some times side effects of raid level content. 

    Dynamic events from unchecked raid level content.

    Players able to run their own shops.

    Players able to run their own resource gather operations like lumber yards/mines.

    World master events.
    Post edited by Vermillion_Raventhal on
    AlBQuirkyAmarantharSteelhelm
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,160
    Having a lot of content that is intended to be done at the max level is the way to do it.  See Guild Wars 1 and 2 for the best examples.
    wingoodCaffynatedAlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

    Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?
    Almost every MMORPG has a means by which continual progression happens long after max level.

    In fact, a lot of games use these as "Steps" as opposed to some mythical "Max",

    Let me use an example, in the MMO Guild Wars 2.

    When your character reaches max level at 80th, that unlocks Mastery Lines, this also opens up things like questing for Legendary Armor, Weapons, Gear, and the ability to to higher level fractals and raids.

    In short, getting to "Max Level" was just the end of one leveling process and the start of others. Most MMO's are built this way, often providing all kinds of progressive grinds, even if not directly called "levels" they are for all mechanical sense, just more levels to the game.

    Now what do you get if at some point you remove these levels, you remove these grinds?

    Well you end up with either something Second Life, which is purely a social game, the whole game is devoid of levels, so all it is, is purely exploration, building, social, and economics. If that was what you were looking for, there is no point to put in pointless preemptive grind to get to this point, and it's better to simply build or play a game like this from the start.

    For the players that are competitive, like combat, but also do not want to deal with any kind of Grind, you have games like Apex Legends, or Overwatch, which is all about the thrill of the fight and combat, with none of the pesky grind leading up to it.

    In the end, an MMORPG is a game that is about the journey, this is why they often have endlessly progressive systems designed around the accumulation of character power, and all other facets of the game, are driven by that motive.

    IE: Dungeons are done for the rewards, not for the enjoyment, or social, or what have you, they are done mainly for the rewards.

    GW2, proved this, when they opted to remove Dungeons from their game, and were looking to move players away from them, they simply nerfed the rewards and the vast majority of dungeon runs died overnight.

    So if at some point, a player was to truly max out their character, chances are they would stop playing, take a break, till the next expansion.. which.. is why games put out expansions, and there is always a surge of players returning to the game, to make to the new highest level, to max out their characters once again.

    So.. what happens really, to players once they Max Out in a game.. they take a break, sometimes they move on to other games, sometimes they just stop playing altogether.

    Very few, will stay around and grind for the sake of grinding, which is why MMORPG's become once you have maxed out, pointless worthless grind for the sake of grind.

    Does this answer your question?
    AlBQuirky
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,862
    Most games I enjoy I then  level other classes.  After that I find mid level activities to do on a regular basis while waiting for DLC, expansions, new classes or shift to another game until they update with new content.  I'll also experiment with different builds a lot.

    ESO, I can always work on finishing other skill lines and maxing out additional weapon types.
    AlBQuirky

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,036
    edited June 2
    I also loved the Alternative Advancement system in EQ.
    Ungood

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,065
    I have never seen a End Game I enjoy.  MMO or otherwise. For the most part I finish the story, finish off the dungeons, do a few random things that interest me and then I shelve the game until the expansion, DLC, or sequel.

    I don't know what an endgame would have to look like for me to stick with it. As someone said above their are just so many games for me to play. I have a crazy huge backlog. 
    Gobstopper3DAlBQuirky
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,160
    Ungood said:
    Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

    Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?
    Almost every MMORPG has a means by which continual progression happens long after max level.

    In fact, a lot of games use these as "Steps" as opposed to some mythical "Max",

    Let me use an example, in the MMO Guild Wars 2.

    When your character reaches max level at 80th, that unlocks Mastery Lines, this also opens up things like questing for Legendary Armor, Weapons, Gear, and the ability to to higher level fractals and raids.

    In short, getting to "Max Level" was just the end of one leveling process and the start of others. Most MMO's are built this way, often providing all kinds of progressive grinds, even if not directly called "levels" they are for all mechanical sense, just more levels to the game.

    Now what do you get if at some point you remove these levels, you remove these grinds?

    Well you end up with either something Second Life, which is purely a social game, the whole game is devoid of levels, so all it is, is purely exploration, building, social, and economics. If that was what you were looking for, there is no point to put in pointless preemptive grind to get to this point, and it's better to simply build or play a game like this from the start.

    For the players that are competitive, like combat, but also do not want to deal with any kind of Grind, you have games like Apex Legends, or Overwatch, which is all about the thrill of the fight and combat, with none of the pesky grind leading up to it.

    In the end, an MMORPG is a game that is about the journey, this is why they often have endlessly progressive systems designed around the accumulation of character power, and all other facets of the game, are driven by that motive.

    IE: Dungeons are done for the rewards, not for the enjoyment, or social, or what have you, they are done mainly for the rewards.

    GW2, proved this, when they opted to remove Dungeons from their game, and were looking to move players away from them, they simply nerfed the rewards and the vast majority of dungeon runs died overnight.

    So if at some point, a player was to truly max out their character, chances are they would stop playing, take a break, till the next expansion.. which.. is why games put out expansions, and there is always a surge of players returning to the game, to make to the new highest level, to max out their characters once again.

    So.. what happens really, to players once they Max Out in a game.. they take a break, sometimes they move on to other games, sometimes they just stop playing altogether.

    Very few, will stay around and grind for the sake of grinding, which is why MMORPG's become once you have maxed out, pointless worthless grind for the sake of grind.

    Does this answer your question?
    You cite Guild Wars 2, but it is quite an outlier.  A large fraction of the game's content is intended to be done at the level cap, including all of both expansions and most of the dungeons.

    Most MMORPGs have only some token sliver of content that is intended to be done at the level cap.  They may still have progression that rewards you for looping that tiny sliver of content endlessly.  But that's a much weaker reason to continue playing the game than actual content.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,514
    Ungood said:
    Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

    Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?
    Almost every MMORPG has a means by which continual progression happens long after max level.

    In fact, a lot of games use these as "Steps" as opposed to some mythical "Max",

    Let me use an example, in the MMO Guild Wars 2.

    When your character reaches max level at 80th, that unlocks Mastery Lines, this also opens up things like questing for Legendary Armor, Weapons, Gear, and the ability to to higher level fractals and raids.

    In short, getting to "Max Level" was just the end of one leveling process and the start of others. Most MMO's are built this way, often providing all kinds of progressive grinds, even if not directly called "levels" they are for all mechanical sense, just more levels to the game.

    Now what do you get if at some point you remove these levels, you remove these grinds?

    Well you end up with either something Second Life, which is purely a social game, the whole game is devoid of levels, so all it is, is purely exploration, building, social, and economics. If that was what you were looking for, there is no point to put in pointless preemptive grind to get to this point, and it's better to simply build or play a game like this from the start.

    For the players that are competitive, like combat, but also do not want to deal with any kind of Grind, you have games like Apex Legends, or Overwatch, which is all about the thrill of the fight and combat, with none of the pesky grind leading up to it.

    In the end, an MMORPG is a game that is about the journey, this is why they often have endlessly progressive systems designed around the accumulation of character power, and all other facets of the game, are driven by that motive.

    IE: Dungeons are done for the rewards, not for the enjoyment, or social, or what have you, they are done mainly for the rewards.

    GW2, proved this, when they opted to remove Dungeons from their game, and were looking to move players away from them, they simply nerfed the rewards and the vast majority of dungeon runs died overnight.

    So if at some point, a player was to truly max out their character, chances are they would stop playing, take a break, till the next expansion.. which.. is why games put out expansions, and there is always a surge of players returning to the game, to make to the new highest level, to max out their characters once again.

    So.. what happens really, to players once they Max Out in a game.. they take a break, sometimes they move on to other games, sometimes they just stop playing altogether.

    Very few, will stay around and grind for the sake of grinding, which is why MMORPG's become once you have maxed out, pointless worthless grind for the sake of grind.

    Does this answer your question?
    That's a detailed answer and a fine job.
    But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point after maxing out levels.
    You show some good stuff in this post, but it doesn't seem to work.

    Kyleran

    Once upon a time....

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,160
    But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point before maxing out levels.

    Fixed that for you.  The overwhelming majority of players who pick up a given game won't get that far into it.  If developers could get half of the people who picked up their game to stick with it all the way to the level cap and then immediately quit, that would be a huge victory unless you hit the level cap almost immediately
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