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MMO with no leveling

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,033
    Many of the video role playing games were based on D&D......D&D had levels.
    AmatheOctagon7711
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,945
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    When people talk to me about No Levels, they seem to miss what levels do.

    They function for the first time player, as a introductory process, this is how they learn the game, as what should be a solid pace. Sure, some games screw this up, but then than some games have managed to screw everything up.. so, no surprise that some games would mess up how to make levels work. 

    But levels allow new players to take the game in parts, as they play and progress more of the game opens up to them, the world and their character grows as they level.

    One of the things I liked about GW2, was the leveling, story, and all the little parts of the game, were designed around the player growing as they played. Hero Points, unlocking trait lines, skills, abilities, understanding gear stats, crafting, and overall, seeing the game world.

    This was a solid system, nothing too fast, and players were given time to play with each new thing they got. GW2's scaling system made it so all content remained viable, so literally the world grew as you leveled up, unlike some games were the world kinda shrinks, and people get bottle necked into a single kind of end game. (Later with HoT GW2 they went in the direction of a bottlenecked end game, but their Core game design was the Epic Shitz)

    That is the key point here, players were given time to play with each new thing they got with their new level, before having other thing thrown at them.

    On the flip side of this, I kinda hates Arche Age, how they shoved this huge ass tutorial of all the game features down my throat before I even had the chance to really play around with any of it, for any length of time. Never liked that, never will like that.

    Now, I suppose if the game stayed at a stupid simple base, that a no leveling system could done, after all, you don't really need to teach people about the various game mechanics and systems, if you don't have any.

    Again in GW2 levels dont teach anything you cant learn as a max level. Which is how they allow Level skips in the first place. I main revenant and I didnt level him. I maxed his day one of HoT. Learned from playing. Also since day one of Vanilla GW2 you could instantaneously become a max level character in SPvP and play and become skilled by actually playing the class. Killing mindless NPC dont teach you anything.  I level grinded all the vanilla classes and still dont know how to play many of them because I dont really feel motivated to play those classes as they dont interest me. But players learn their class by playing content, not level grinding. 

    Vanilla WoW had major level grind and back then you have level 50s and 60 that still didnt know how to play their class. Killing NPCs and running mass collection quest dont teach squat.
    Here's a book on Calculus. By the way, here are books on Algebra, Geometry, and Trigonometry, too. Have fun :)

    Some players, especially new to the genre, may find this a bit overwhelming. Not everyone is as great and grand a you are.
    That's why you give them a optional tutorial. Not every player needs to learn how to move a character,  talk in chat, jump over things. These are things most general mmos do, yet some players are novice. But my point still stands. Level grind does more to run those players away then actually help them learn. 

    I spent a few years as a max level in Vanilla Rift, suddenly they add 10 more levels to do on a slow boring grind in a empty level zones (since I started the expansion a little late). What really made me mad was that the new RvR mode they added to the vanilla game was moved to the new level cap and level gated even though it was once a feature I could play in Vanilla but now I am locked out of it.

    Why? So I can learn how to play? I been max level for years. I need 10 more level bring to learn to play?
    GdemamiHatefullAlBQuirky

    image

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 926
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    I played GW2 for a solid chunk.  I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic.  When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting.  But even then people claimed there wasn't.  Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.  
    Nobody said GW2 didnt have item progression.  It has levels as well. What we talking about here is that the level grind isnt needed since most of us play at max level which scales the whole world. It's not needed to still have the same progression mechanics as endgame in most other MMOs. 
    In WoW and ESO most people play at max level.  Any popular game with tons of players has most people playing at max level.  I know ESO scales the world.  I think WoW does too now.

    How is the progression mechanics different?  You get better items and equip them, right?

    I didn't last long enough in GW2 to get to max level, and I haven't played WoW in years and years, and I didn't play ESo to max level either.  

    What, specifically, is different in them now that the world scales?  How did this change mechanics?  Instead of running raids you just clear maps for various stuff that aren't item upgrades?  

    I did play DCUO at end game for a while.  I'm not sure if its like that with the constant grind for finding costume piece sets and clues or whatnot for skill points.  I know I'm not a fan of that.  

    GW2, ESO, and WOW have a level grind to max level.  That is a 100% fact.  If you are saying the games stay the same play-wise and you keep doing exactly what you were doing leveling up at max level, instead of like in old-wow and most older mmorpgs where what you did to level and what you do at max is very different, okay.  I can see that.  

    So are you arguing for not stop-leveling experience, instead of no leveling then?  What's the difference?  
    The subject is regarding removing levels from MMORPGs. Aka my argument is that you dont need traditional character levels grind in MMOs.

    Some here counterargument was that all MMOs need progression.

    Which I elaborate that I nor anybody else ever said to remove all progression from MMOs. We said just remove the player levels. It's not a needed mechanic to have a meaningful progression. It actually burdens gameplay having character levels and gated world.

    I clarified some more, GW2's endgame is 100% level scaled, meaning you still progress in low level zones as you do in high level zones. If the level mechanics were removed from GW2, nothing about a player's play style and progression would change compared to a playing who is level 80. Nothing would change because the whole world is one level, aka endgame.

    In WoW most of your time is at max level, which rarely will you go back to low level meaninglessness areas. These areas become wasted content. But if WoW didnt have levels, ALL ZONES WOULD BE USEFUL GAME CONTENT. No such thing as outleveling content in a WoW mmo with no levels.  You still would have progression like any max level player does in WoW currently. As in Dungeons,  Raids, Gear, mounts, skins, etc. Your choice on how you want to go about doing it. Again no different from a WoW player at endgame. 

    So the argument that a levelless system is void of progression is flawed. i hope I was able to respectful clear that up for you to understand. 
    So, correct me if I am wrong but what you are advocating for is a non-stop leveling experience, regardless of levels, as is seen and implemented in GW2.  

    I highly dislike this type of gameplay.  I do not want to be forced to clear all content in every map.  I will definitely agree there is a huge push from developers to reward players for doing this.  But it usually goes beyond rewards and becomes a necessity when it is tied to actual character progression like in ESO (skill points), or DCUO (skill points), etc.  Some games make it rewarding, but not necessary, like LotRO, DDO, Wildstar, etc.  

    I think its a hassle and a huge pain in the ass.  When I hit level cap I do not want to clear maps some type of test rat with attention surplus disorder.  I do not want to be punished or have a weaker character because I skipped content.  I want a great and intricate character development system that ends when I hit cap.  I do not like AA systems like in EQ2 or Rift.  I want the journey to cap to be fun and completely different then my experience at level cap, and I don't want there to be necessary rewards that force me to do leveling type content when I am at cap. 

    I think older mmorpgs got it perfect for me - WoW up through WotLK, AO, AoC, etc.  
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,932
    Aenghas said:
    Ungood said:
    When people talk to me about No Levels, they seem to miss what levels do.

    They function for the first time player, as a introductory process, this is how they learn the game, as what should be a solid pace. Sure, some games screw this up, but then than some games have managed to screw everything up.. so, no surprise that some games would mess up how to make levels work. 

    But levels allow new players to take the game in parts, as they play and progress more of the game opens up to them, the world and their character grows as they level.

    One of the things I liked about GW2, was the leveling, story, and all the little parts of the game, were designed around the player growing as they played. Hero Points, unlocking trait lines, skills, abilities, understanding gear stats, crafting, and overall, seeing the game world.

    This was a solid system, nothing too fast, and players were given time to play with each new thing they got. GW2's scaling system made it so all content remained viable, so literally the world grew as you leveled up, unlike some games were the world kinda shrinks, and people get bottle necked into a single kind of end game. (Later with HoT GW2 they went in the direction of a bottlenecked end game, but their Core game design was the Epic Shitz)

    That is the key point here, players were given time to play with each new thing they got with their new level, before having other thing thrown at them.

    On the flip side of this, I kinda hates Arche Age, how they shoved this huge ass tutorial of all the game features down my throat before I even had the chance to really play around with any of it, for any length of time. Never liked that, never will like that.

    Now, I suppose if the game stayed at a stupid simple base, that a no leveling system could done, after all, you don't really need to teach people about the various game mechanics and systems, if you don't have any.
      

    Mechanics to introduce players to game can come in story between you just get powers and figure out how to use them on your own.  It has always been that way.

    It is always funny that people equate lack of levels to lacking mechanics and systems.   Having your full moveset from the beginning or spread out over a month grind doesn't change depth.  



    Change is scary for a lot of people, I feel like that is what we are seeing a bit of in this thread.

    Optional tutorials work fine and are often already co-existing in games with leveling at the moment. GW2 seems to be something we are all familiar with, the prompt to learn to dodge roll near the start of the game is an example of an integrated tutorial that isn't dependent on level. FFXIV has Hall of the Novice, optional tutorials before the first dungeon. These aren't scary or radical, they work fine and there are lots of other creative ways to incorporate tutorials without leveling.
    Yeah change is often resisted. Even talking about ideas on forum has people feeling like you are taking away something.  The trend especially in themepark MMORPG is away for exclusive gated content and grinds.  It is one reason why difficulty in the general world has dropped as you are treated like a level 1 character to all normal opponents even when you are mid to high levels.  
    GdemamiMMOExposedSteelhelmHatefull
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    I played GW2 for a solid chunk.  I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic.  When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting.  But even then people claimed there wasn't.  Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.  
    Nobody said GW2 didnt have item progression.  It has levels as well. What we talking about here is that the level grind isnt needed since most of us play at max level which scales the whole world. It's not needed to still have the same progression mechanics as endgame in most other MMOs. 
    In WoW and ESO most people play at max level.  Any popular game with tons of players has most people playing at max level.  I know ESO scales the world.  I think WoW does too now.

    How is the progression mechanics different?  You get better items and equip them, right?

    I didn't last long enough in GW2 to get to max level, and I haven't played WoW in years and years, and I didn't play ESo to max level either.  

    What, specifically, is different in them now that the world scales?  How did this change mechanics?  Instead of running raids you just clear maps for various stuff that aren't item upgrades?  

    I did play DCUO at end game for a while.  I'm not sure if its like that with the constant grind for finding costume piece sets and clues or whatnot for skill points.  I know I'm not a fan of that.  

    GW2, ESO, and WOW have a level grind to max level.  That is a 100% fact.  If you are saying the games stay the same play-wise and you keep doing exactly what you were doing leveling up at max level, instead of like in old-wow and most older mmorpgs where what you did to level and what you do at max is very different, okay.  I can see that.  

    So are you arguing for not stop-leveling experience, instead of no leveling then?  What's the difference?  
    The subject is regarding removing levels from MMORPGs. Aka my argument is that you dont need traditional character levels grind in MMOs.

    Some here counterargument was that all MMOs need progression.

    Which I elaborate that I nor anybody else ever said to remove all progression from MMOs. We said just remove the player levels. It's not a needed mechanic to have a meaningful progression. It actually burdens gameplay having character levels and gated world.

    I clarified some more, GW2's endgame is 100% level scaled, meaning you still progress in low level zones as you do in high level zones. If the level mechanics were removed from GW2, nothing about a player's play style and progression would change compared to a playing who is level 80. Nothing would change because the whole world is one level, aka endgame.

    In WoW most of your time is at max level, which rarely will you go back to low level meaninglessness areas. These areas become wasted content. But if WoW didnt have levels, ALL ZONES WOULD BE USEFUL GAME CONTENT. No such thing as outleveling content in a WoW mmo with no levels.  You still would have progression like any max level player does in WoW currently. As in Dungeons,  Raids, Gear, mounts, skins, etc. Your choice on how you want to go about doing it. Again no different from a WoW player at endgame. 

    So the argument that a levelless system is void of progression is flawed. i hope I was able to respectful clear that up for you to understand. 
    So, correct me if I am wrong but what you are advocating for is a non-stop leveling experience, regardless of levels, as is seen and implemented in GW2.  

    I highly dislike this type of gameplay.  I do not want to be forced to clear all content in every map.  I will definitely agree there is a huge push from developers to reward players for doing this.  But it usually goes beyond rewards and becomes a necessity when it is tied to actual character progression like in ESO (skill points), or DCUO (skill points), etc.  Some games make it rewarding, but not necessary, like LotRO, DDO, Wildstar, etc.  

    I think its a hassle and a huge pain in the ass.  When I hit level cap I do not want to clear maps some type of test rat with attention surplus disorder.  I do not want to be punished or have a weaker character because I skipped content.  I want a great and intricate character development system that ends when I hit cap.  I do not like AA systems like in EQ2 or Rift.  I want the journey to cap to be fun and completely different then my experience at level cap, and I don't want there to be necessary rewards that force me to do leveling type content when I am at cap. 

    I think older mmorpgs got it perfect for me - WoW up through WotLK, AO, AoC, etc.  
    I'm a fan of DDO's TR process, which allows you to keep leveling again and again, with various builds and gear, makes farming for the "rare" drops easier, as opposed to doing the dungeon several times in a life span, I do them a few times for the exp and loot, and then when I TR I try them again to see if I can get that one ultra rare drop.. meh.. if I don't get it this life .. I'll get it next,.. love that idea.. it also keeps all the content viable in it's own way.
    blamo2000
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,945
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    I played GW2 for a solid chunk.  I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic.  When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting.  But even then people claimed there wasn't.  Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.  
    Nobody said GW2 didnt have item progression.  It has levels as well. What we talking about here is that the level grind isnt needed since most of us play at max level which scales the whole world. It's not needed to still have the same progression mechanics as endgame in most other MMOs. 
    In WoW and ESO most people play at max level.  Any popular game with tons of players has most people playing at max level.  I know ESO scales the world.  I think WoW does too now.

    How is the progression mechanics different?  You get better items and equip them, right?

    I didn't last long enough in GW2 to get to max level, and I haven't played WoW in years and years, and I didn't play ESo to max level either.  

    What, specifically, is different in them now that the world scales?  How did this change mechanics?  Instead of running raids you just clear maps for various stuff that aren't item upgrades?  

    I did play DCUO at end game for a while.  I'm not sure if its like that with the constant grind for finding costume piece sets and clues or whatnot for skill points.  I know I'm not a fan of that.  

    GW2, ESO, and WOW have a level grind to max level.  That is a 100% fact.  If you are saying the games stay the same play-wise and you keep doing exactly what you were doing leveling up at max level, instead of like in old-wow and most older mmorpgs where what you did to level and what you do at max is very different, okay.  I can see that.  

    So are you arguing for not stop-leveling experience, instead of no leveling then?  What's the difference?  
    The subject is regarding removing levels from MMORPGs. Aka my argument is that you dont need traditional character levels grind in MMOs.

    Some here counterargument was that all MMOs need progression.

    Which I elaborate that I nor anybody else ever said to remove all progression from MMOs. We said just remove the player levels. It's not a needed mechanic to have a meaningful progression. It actually burdens gameplay having character levels and gated world.

    I clarified some more, GW2's endgame is 100% level scaled, meaning you still progress in low level zones as you do in high level zones. If the level mechanics were removed from GW2, nothing about a player's play style and progression would change compared to a playing who is level 80. Nothing would change because the whole world is one level, aka endgame.

    In WoW most of your time is at max level, which rarely will you go back to low level meaninglessness areas. These areas become wasted content. But if WoW didnt have levels, ALL ZONES WOULD BE USEFUL GAME CONTENT. No such thing as outleveling content in a WoW mmo with no levels.  You still would have progression like any max level player does in WoW currently. As in Dungeons,  Raids, Gear, mounts, skins, etc. Your choice on how you want to go about doing it. Again no different from a WoW player at endgame. 

    So the argument that a levelless system is void of progression is flawed. i hope I was able to respectful clear that up for you to understand. 
    So, correct me if I am wrong but what you are advocating for is a non-stop leveling experience, regardless of levels, as is seen and implemented in GW2.  

    I highly dislike this type of gameplay.  I do not want to be forced to clear all content in every map.  I will definitely agree there is a huge push from developers to reward players for doing this.  But it usually goes beyond rewards and becomes a necessity when it is tied to actual character progression like in ESO (skill points), or DCUO (skill points), etc.  Some games make it rewarding, but not necessary, like LotRO, DDO, Wildstar, etc.  

    I think its a hassle and a huge pain in the ass.  When I hit level cap I do not want to clear maps some type of test rat with attention surplus disorder.  I do not want to be punished or have a weaker character because I skipped content.  I want a great and intricate character development system that ends when I hit cap.  I do not like AA systems like in EQ2 or Rift.  I want the journey to cap to be fun and completely different then my experience at level cap, and I don't want there to be necessary rewards that force me to do leveling type content when I am at cap. 

    I think older mmorpgs got it perfect for me - WoW up through WotLK, AO, AoC, etc.  
    No I want NO LEVELING. Key point of this thread, aka No level grind. Just one world, go out and make your journey.  The whole world is endgame. No need to gate content by level.  You skilled to beat Dragon Thor, well come join the fight against Dragon Thor. No more "you must be level X to enter this zone to fight Dragon Thor".

    Using GW2 again as example.  Let's say hypothetically speaking, Anet changed the max level to level 20. All players that had characters beyond that before the change get rewarded some mats and skins.

    Now level cap is 20. What would change about the gameplay? Would anything be different?

    Now let's say a month later they change the max level to 5. What would change about the gameplay? 

    Now let's say a month later the level cap is removed altogether.  No levels anymore.  What changes about the gameplay? Nothing changed.  You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.

    Take GW2 and swap it with WoW now. It's now a whole world that is useful content compared to only max level zones. I dont know what the max is now in WoW. But let's say its level 100. Instead of having 5 level 100 zones and 95 low level zones, the game now has 100 zones with no difference in level. Just straight up content. 100 endgame zones since there is no levels. 

    100> 5 zones.
    GdemamiHatefull

    image

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited May 31
    MMOExposed said:
    You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.
    No, you wouldn't because the reason to do them would be gone - getting higher levels, gear w/e.

    You would be off to another game, a game that isn't designed by retard...
    Post edited by Gdemami on
    learis1
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 72
    Gdemami said:
    MMOExposed said:
    You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.
    No, you wouldn't because the reason to do them would be gone - getting higher levels.

    You would be off to another game game that isn't designed by retard...
    Why would it be 'retarded' though? A game without levels wouldn't be for everyone, sure, but that wouldn't make it retarded. There could still be progression. There would be plenty of positives.

    Group content would always matter. A monster that takes two people to kill would always take two people to kill it. Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. PvP would be about skill, coordination and tactics.

    I don't like paying real money for better looking gear so I don't play Black Desert. I don't like a heavy emphasis on vertical progression so I don't play WoW. If a game ever did get released that had no levels then you wouldn't play it and that is ok.
    GdemamiHatefull
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,932
    Aenghas said:
    Gdemami said:
    MMOExposed said:
    You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.
    No, you wouldn't because the reason to do them would be gone - getting higher levels.

    You would be off to another game game that isn't designed by retard...
    Why would it be 'retarded' though? A game without levels wouldn't be for everyone, sure, but that wouldn't make it retarded. There could still be progression. There would be plenty of positives.

    Group content would always matter. A monster that takes two people to kill would always take two people to kill it. Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. PvP would be about skill, coordination and tactics.

    I don't like paying real money for better looking gear so I don't play Black Desert. I don't like a heavy emphasis on vertical progression so I don't play WoW. If a game ever did get released that had no levels then you wouldn't play it and that is ok.
    People are dogmatic about leveling.  Been that way since EQ.  At least from a lot people on forums.  I remember the early WoW days that even suggesting a sandbox was met with open hostility and liking PvP made you a Quake player.  

    A grind, leveling or whatever you want to call it makes an MMORPG and RPG.  Not the potential to play roles online with other players.  
    GdemamiHatefull
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,945
    Gdemami said:
    MMOExposed said:
    You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.
    No, you wouldn't because the reason to do them would be gone - getting higher levels, gear w/e.

    You would be off to another game, a game that isn't designed by retard...
    The reason would be the exact same. Getting better gear. Higher level dont matter to a max level. So lowering the max level tomorrow has no effect on a max level because nothing changes.  You still getting gear like in GW2 example,  most of the low level zones are full of max level players trying to get gear, mats and karma.  So changing the max level down to 20 will still make each of those zones rewarding for max level players like it was before the cap was reduced.
    Nothing changes.  

    Again tell me what changed?

    Suddenly Anet removed all 80 levels, what would players do? The exact same thing they been doing. Living World, Events, node farm, SPvP, etc else they already do. Not one thing changes about the gameplay. Not one.
    GdemamiHatefull

    image

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,932

    Suddenly Anet removed all 80 levels, what would players do? 
    There would  be human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria.  


    MMOExposedHatefullSteelhelm
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited May 31
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,932
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Or you use difficulty and player skill as a gate. 
    GdemamiHatefullAenghas
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,945
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    1: endgame will still work like endgame. So levelless system is the request here since ALL CONTENT WOULD BE ENDGAME. No Leveling Content, which is useless to a max level. 

    2: again nothing is replacing progression. Level content is a waste of resources since most players in a level grind mmo will prefer not to go back there unless it has scaling, which pretty much exposes the flaw of level content to begin with. All maps are endgame. In WoW for example,  you still will have progression, just that every zone (formerly 1-80 zones) would now all be max level 100(or whatever the max level is). Everybody is level 100. All zones are real progression. All zones contribute to your character real progress. There is no outleveled zones/content. All dungeons are max level. All raids are max level. All hostile NPC are max level.

    When there is no levels, EVERYTHING PRETTY MUCH IS THE SAME EXACT LEVEL, JUST LIKE A MAX LEVEL CHARACTER IN A MAX LEVEL ZONE. 

    What do people do for months/years when they a max level if no levels = no progression? Think about that.

    3: again we just want all the level grind gone. Everything endgame. Endgame will stay as is, but all the content in the world can be done if you have the skills and tools to do so. Not some artificial Character Level.  Again using the example in Rift, in Vanilla Rift they added a new RvR 3 faction battle mode. I liked the concept (wasnt perfect but that's not what this about). I ENJOYED THAT NEW FEATURE. Keyword there, I enjoyed it. But when they added the first expansion,  they added 10 more slow boring level grinds in an already empty level map (level maps are non max level zones used to get players to max level). They were empty because by time I got the expansion, most people with the expansion were in the max level zones with no reason to come back to these leveling zones. So I had to do events and quest on my own with little to no help or interaction from another player. Wouldn't even see other players. But all of this on top of the fact that THAT GAME FEATURE I SAID I LIKED, WAS NOW LEVEL GATED TO THE NEW MAX LEVEL.  SO NOW I CANT PLAY IT UNLESS I LEVEL GRIND THROUGH THIS BORING LEVEL ZONE THAT I DON'T ENJOY PLAYING, JUST TO GET BACK TO PLAYING WHAT I ENJOYED BEFORE THEY ADDED MORE LEVEL GRINDS. The levels added nothing but a burden of boring content that max levels dont do. I quit that game for good. 
    Vermillion_RaventhalGdemamiHatefull

    image

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Or you use difficulty and player skill as a gate. 
    Sounds like a Battle Arena game.
    HatefullSteelhelm
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 72
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Not contradicting myself at all, your 2nd model is closest to how it would work but you are incorrectly defining progression as vertical only.

    Like I said in an earlier post it wouldn't be everyone's idea of fun, it definitely would focus on other incentives for doing the content. It could definitely work though, there are already a lot of people playing mmo's because they enjoy certain horizontal progression elements or the exploration or doing achievements or building a place in the world or making their character look exactly how they want them to or collecting pets or mounts.
    Gdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,932
    Ungood said:
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Or you use difficulty and player skill as a gate. 
    Sounds like a Battle Arena game.
    Lol only to a few.  So what is the minimum time to max progression for it to go from battle arena to MMORPG.

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,095
    I honestly don't think it matters if mmorpg have level or not.  The game start at max level anyway.  And the leveling phase is just extended tutorial which can be skipped, that is why many game give you a max character if you buy the expansion or let you pay for it.
    Hatefull
  • learis1learis1 Member UncommonPosts: 106
    edited June 1
    Where's the repeat value? You certainly could do this for an MMO, but why??? With zero progression, once you beat something then why beat it again? For better gear? Well then you just introduced progression.

    I can't see how zero progression models would work for MMOs where monetary sustainability typically comes through payments people make over a long-term investment in the game. What long term appeal is there for zero progression? Pretty much just pvp I guess. But then why waste so much money making it an MMO in the first place when that's unecessary?

    Mend and Defend

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 926
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:


    No I want NO LEVELING. Key point of this thread, aka No level grind. Just one world, go out and make your journey.  The whole world is endgame. No need to gate content by level.  You skilled to beat Dragon Thor, well come join the fight against Dragon Thor. No more "you must be level X to enter this zone to fight Dragon Thor".

    Using GW2 again as example.  Let's say hypothetically speaking, Anet changed the max level to level 20. All players that had characters beyond that before the change get rewarded some mats and skins.

    Now level cap is 20. What would change about the gameplay? Would anything be different?

    Now let's say a month later they change the max level to 5. What would change about the gameplay? 

    Now let's say a month later the level cap is removed altogether.  No levels anymore.  What changes about the gameplay? Nothing changed.  You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.

    Take GW2 and swap it with WoW now. It's now a whole world that is useful content compared to only max level zones. I dont know what the max is now in WoW. But let's say its level 100. Instead of having 5 level 100 zones and 95 low level zones, the game now has 100 zones with no difference in level. Just straight up content. 100 endgame zones since there is no levels. 

    100> 5 zones.
    I understand you want no leveling.  But your no leveling example leads to the same exact game play of GW2 at level cap, which is the same experience of GW2 while leveling up per your own statement.

    I don't see the difference.  If a no leveling game has the same exact gameplay as a game that has the same leveling content as level cap content, where you go clear maps like a rat formulaically clearing mazes - no thank you.  

    Levels or no, you are arguing for content and a game focus I immensely dislike.   
    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,049
    I bet you guys get really into arguing Cake VS Pie too.
    As mentioned before... there is no right answer (except white cake with fudge filling and buttercream icing)

    HatefullOctagon7711

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,410
    edited June 1
    The whole world is endgame.
    For a player that avoids "end game" like a plague, not really appealing.

    It could be interesting to see how well a game like this would do, though, since I see A LOT of players rushing to end game, just to complain that there's nothing to do.
    Hatefull

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,932
    AlBQuirky said:
    The whole world is endgame.
    For a player that avoids "end game" like a plague, not really appealing.

    It could be interesting to see how well a game like this would do, though, since I see A LOT of players rushing to end game, just to complain that there's nothing to do.
    It would play like ESO, WoW latest expansions, GW2.  Level scaling is basically the compromise.  Keep levels but turn content into a levelless game.  
    AlBQuirkyGdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,932
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:


    No I want NO LEVELING. Key point of this thread, aka No level grind. Just one world, go out and make your journey.  The whole world is endgame. No need to gate content by level.  You skilled to beat Dragon Thor, well come join the fight against Dragon Thor. No more "you must be level X to enter this zone to fight Dragon Thor".

    Using GW2 again as example.  Let's say hypothetically speaking, Anet changed the max level to level 20. All players that had characters beyond that before the change get rewarded some mats and skins.

    Now level cap is 20. What would change about the gameplay? Would anything be different?

    Now let's say a month later they change the max level to 5. What would change about the gameplay? 

    Now let's say a month later the level cap is removed altogether.  No levels anymore.  What changes about the gameplay? Nothing changed.  You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.

    Take GW2 and swap it with WoW now. It's now a whole world that is useful content compared to only max level zones. I dont know what the max is now in WoW. But let's say its level 100. Instead of having 5 level 100 zones and 95 low level zones, the game now has 100 zones with no difference in level. Just straight up content. 100 endgame zones since there is no levels. 

    100> 5 zones.
    I understand you want no leveling.  But your no leveling example leads to the same exact game play of GW2 at level cap, which is the same experience of GW2 while leveling up per your own statement.

    I don't see the difference.  If a no leveling game has the same exact gameplay as a game that has the same leveling content as level cap content, where you go clear maps like a rat formulaically clearing mazes - no thank you.  

    Levels or no, you are arguing for content and a game focus I immensely dislike.   
    It goes both.  Why have levels if it plays like a levelless game?  The obvious reason developers do level scaling is to not waste content that is expensive to make.  You can't out level content. 

    I can understand why they have levels.  It is easier to drive players to push numbers than make features that are "fun." Not to mention some people are basically religious about leveling.  That's one reason I look at leveling as a crutch.  So much is done to layout means to level the virtual world and gameplay is neglected.  



    Gdemami
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,410
    I have an idea. One that will certainly please the game makers and possibly even the "level-less game" seekers.

    Paid max leveling! Kind of like what WoW does with each new expansion. Just buy your way through the "boring" parts and hit the end game. The whole world opens up and you can go anywhere, do anything, and never again progress... until the next expansion, that is :)

    Would that solve anything?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

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