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MMO with no leveling

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,318
    edited May 2019
    MMOExposed said:
    You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.
    No, you wouldn't because the reason to do them would be gone - getting higher levels, gear w/e.

    You would be off to another game, a game that isn't designed by retard...
    Post edited by Gdemami on
    learis1
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 90
    Gdemami said:
    MMOExposed said:
    You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.
    No, you wouldn't because the reason to do them would be gone - getting higher levels.

    You would be off to another game game that isn't designed by retard...
    Why would it be 'retarded' though? A game without levels wouldn't be for everyone, sure, but that wouldn't make it retarded. There could still be progression. There would be plenty of positives.

    Group content would always matter. A monster that takes two people to kill would always take two people to kill it. Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. PvP would be about skill, coordination and tactics.

    I don't like paying real money for better looking gear so I don't play Black Desert. I don't like a heavy emphasis on vertical progression so I don't play WoW. If a game ever did get released that had no levels then you wouldn't play it and that is ok.
    GdemamiHatefull
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    Aenghas said:
    Gdemami said:
    MMOExposed said:
    You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.
    No, you wouldn't because the reason to do them would be gone - getting higher levels.

    You would be off to another game game that isn't designed by retard...
    Why would it be 'retarded' though? A game without levels wouldn't be for everyone, sure, but that wouldn't make it retarded. There could still be progression. There would be plenty of positives.

    Group content would always matter. A monster that takes two people to kill would always take two people to kill it. Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. PvP would be about skill, coordination and tactics.

    I don't like paying real money for better looking gear so I don't play Black Desert. I don't like a heavy emphasis on vertical progression so I don't play WoW. If a game ever did get released that had no levels then you wouldn't play it and that is ok.
    People are dogmatic about leveling.  Been that way since EQ.  At least from a lot people on forums.  I remember the early WoW days that even suggesting a sandbox was met with open hostility and liking PvP made you a Quake player.  

    A grind, leveling or whatever you want to call it makes an MMORPG and RPG.  Not the potential to play roles online with other players.  
    GdemamiHatefull
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,155
    Gdemami said:
    MMOExposed said:
    You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.
    No, you wouldn't because the reason to do them would be gone - getting higher levels, gear w/e.

    You would be off to another game, a game that isn't designed by retard...
    The reason would be the exact same. Getting better gear. Higher level dont matter to a max level. So lowering the max level tomorrow has no effect on a max level because nothing changes.  You still getting gear like in GW2 example,  most of the low level zones are full of max level players trying to get gear, mats and karma.  So changing the max level down to 20 will still make each of those zones rewarding for max level players like it was before the cap was reduced.
    Nothing changes.  

    Again tell me what changed?

    Suddenly Anet removed all 80 levels, what would players do? The exact same thing they been doing. Living World, Events, node farm, SPvP, etc else they already do. Not one thing changes about the gameplay. Not one.
    GdemamiHatefull

    image

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122

    Suddenly Anet removed all 80 levels, what would players do? 
    There would  be human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria.  


    MMOExposedHatefullSteelhelm
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,318
    edited May 2019
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Or you use difficulty and player skill as a gate. 
    GdemamiHatefullAenghas
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,155
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    1: endgame will still work like endgame. So levelless system is the request here since ALL CONTENT WOULD BE ENDGAME. No Leveling Content, which is useless to a max level. 

    2: again nothing is replacing progression. Level content is a waste of resources since most players in a level grind mmo will prefer not to go back there unless it has scaling, which pretty much exposes the flaw of level content to begin with. All maps are endgame. In WoW for example,  you still will have progression, just that every zone (formerly 1-80 zones) would now all be max level 100(or whatever the max level is). Everybody is level 100. All zones are real progression. All zones contribute to your character real progress. There is no outleveled zones/content. All dungeons are max level. All raids are max level. All hostile NPC are max level.

    When there is no levels, EVERYTHING PRETTY MUCH IS THE SAME EXACT LEVEL, JUST LIKE A MAX LEVEL CHARACTER IN A MAX LEVEL ZONE. 

    What do people do for months/years when they a max level if no levels = no progression? Think about that.

    3: again we just want all the level grind gone. Everything endgame. Endgame will stay as is, but all the content in the world can be done if you have the skills and tools to do so. Not some artificial Character Level.  Again using the example in Rift, in Vanilla Rift they added a new RvR 3 faction battle mode. I liked the concept (wasnt perfect but that's not what this about). I ENJOYED THAT NEW FEATURE. Keyword there, I enjoyed it. But when they added the first expansion,  they added 10 more slow boring level grinds in an already empty level map (level maps are non max level zones used to get players to max level). They were empty because by time I got the expansion, most people with the expansion were in the max level zones with no reason to come back to these leveling zones. So I had to do events and quest on my own with little to no help or interaction from another player. Wouldn't even see other players. But all of this on top of the fact that THAT GAME FEATURE I SAID I LIKED, WAS NOW LEVEL GATED TO THE NEW MAX LEVEL.  SO NOW I CANT PLAY IT UNLESS I LEVEL GRIND THROUGH THIS BORING LEVEL ZONE THAT I DON'T ENJOY PLAYING, JUST TO GET BACK TO PLAYING WHAT I ENJOYED BEFORE THEY ADDED MORE LEVEL GRINDS. The levels added nothing but a burden of boring content that max levels dont do. I quit that game for good. 
    Vermillion_RaventhalGdemamiHatefull

    image

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,533
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Or you use difficulty and player skill as a gate. 
    Sounds like a Battle Arena game.
    HatefullSteelhelm
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 90
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Not contradicting myself at all, your 2nd model is closest to how it would work but you are incorrectly defining progression as vertical only.

    Like I said in an earlier post it wouldn't be everyone's idea of fun, it definitely would focus on other incentives for doing the content. It could definitely work though, there are already a lot of people playing mmo's because they enjoy certain horizontal progression elements or the exploration or doing achievements or building a place in the world or making their character look exactly how they want them to or collecting pets or mounts.
    Gdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    Ungood said:
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Or you use difficulty and player skill as a gate. 
    Sounds like a Battle Arena game.
    Lol only to a few.  So what is the minimum time to max progression for it to go from battle arena to MMORPG.

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,366
    I honestly don't think it matters if mmorpg have level or not.  The game start at max level anyway.  And the leveling phase is just extended tutorial which can be skipped, that is why many game give you a max character if you buy the expansion or let you pay for it.
    Hatefull
  • learis1learis1 Member UncommonPosts: 162
    edited June 2019
    Where's the repeat value? You certainly could do this for an MMO, but why??? With zero progression, once you beat something then why beat it again? For better gear? Well then you just introduced progression.

    I can't see how zero progression models would work for MMOs where monetary sustainability typically comes through payments people make over a long-term investment in the game. What long term appeal is there for zero progression? Pretty much just pvp I guess. But then why waste so much money making it an MMO in the first place when that's unecessary?

    Mend and Defend

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,057
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:


    No I want NO LEVELING. Key point of this thread, aka No level grind. Just one world, go out and make your journey.  The whole world is endgame. No need to gate content by level.  You skilled to beat Dragon Thor, well come join the fight against Dragon Thor. No more "you must be level X to enter this zone to fight Dragon Thor".

    Using GW2 again as example.  Let's say hypothetically speaking, Anet changed the max level to level 20. All players that had characters beyond that before the change get rewarded some mats and skins.

    Now level cap is 20. What would change about the gameplay? Would anything be different?

    Now let's say a month later they change the max level to 5. What would change about the gameplay? 

    Now let's say a month later the level cap is removed altogether.  No levels anymore.  What changes about the gameplay? Nothing changed.  You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.

    Take GW2 and swap it with WoW now. It's now a whole world that is useful content compared to only max level zones. I dont know what the max is now in WoW. But let's say its level 100. Instead of having 5 level 100 zones and 95 low level zones, the game now has 100 zones with no difference in level. Just straight up content. 100 endgame zones since there is no levels. 

    100> 5 zones.
    I understand you want no leveling.  But your no leveling example leads to the same exact game play of GW2 at level cap, which is the same experience of GW2 while leveling up per your own statement.

    I don't see the difference.  If a no leveling game has the same exact gameplay as a game that has the same leveling content as level cap content, where you go clear maps like a rat formulaically clearing mazes - no thank you.  

    Levels or no, you are arguing for content and a game focus I immensely dislike.   
    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,401
    I bet you guys get really into arguing Cake VS Pie too.
    As mentioned before... there is no right answer (except white cake with fudge filling and buttercream icing)

    HatefullOctagon7711

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,425
    edited June 2019
    The whole world is endgame.
    For a player that avoids "end game" like a plague, not really appealing.

    It could be interesting to see how well a game like this would do, though, since I see A LOT of players rushing to end game, just to complain that there's nothing to do.
    Hatefull

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    AlBQuirky said:
    The whole world is endgame.
    For a player that avoids "end game" like a plague, not really appealing.

    It could be interesting to see how well a game like this would do, though, since I see A LOT of players rushing to end game, just to complain that there's nothing to do.
    It would play like ESO, WoW latest expansions, GW2.  Level scaling is basically the compromise.  Keep levels but turn content into a levelless game.  
    AlBQuirkyGdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:


    No I want NO LEVELING. Key point of this thread, aka No level grind. Just one world, go out and make your journey.  The whole world is endgame. No need to gate content by level.  You skilled to beat Dragon Thor, well come join the fight against Dragon Thor. No more "you must be level X to enter this zone to fight Dragon Thor".

    Using GW2 again as example.  Let's say hypothetically speaking, Anet changed the max level to level 20. All players that had characters beyond that before the change get rewarded some mats and skins.

    Now level cap is 20. What would change about the gameplay? Would anything be different?

    Now let's say a month later they change the max level to 5. What would change about the gameplay? 

    Now let's say a month later the level cap is removed altogether.  No levels anymore.  What changes about the gameplay? Nothing changed.  You still doing the same exact things you were doing before the change and after.

    Take GW2 and swap it with WoW now. It's now a whole world that is useful content compared to only max level zones. I dont know what the max is now in WoW. But let's say its level 100. Instead of having 5 level 100 zones and 95 low level zones, the game now has 100 zones with no difference in level. Just straight up content. 100 endgame zones since there is no levels. 

    100> 5 zones.
    I understand you want no leveling.  But your no leveling example leads to the same exact game play of GW2 at level cap, which is the same experience of GW2 while leveling up per your own statement.

    I don't see the difference.  If a no leveling game has the same exact gameplay as a game that has the same leveling content as level cap content, where you go clear maps like a rat formulaically clearing mazes - no thank you.  

    Levels or no, you are arguing for content and a game focus I immensely dislike.   
    It goes both.  Why have levels if it plays like a levelless game?  The obvious reason developers do level scaling is to not waste content that is expensive to make.  You can't out level content. 

    I can understand why they have levels.  It is easier to drive players to push numbers than make features that are "fun." Not to mention some people are basically religious about leveling.  That's one reason I look at leveling as a crutch.  So much is done to layout means to level the virtual world and gameplay is neglected.  



    Gdemami
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,425
    I have an idea. One that will certainly please the game makers and possibly even the "level-less game" seekers.

    Paid max leveling! Kind of like what WoW does with each new expansion. Just buy your way through the "boring" parts and hit the end game. The whole world opens up and you can go anywhere, do anything, and never again progress... until the next expansion, that is :)

    Would that solve anything?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,968
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?
    Level scaling is in the top MMORPG.  While they aren't levelless they basically play like they are. 


    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,533
    edited June 2019
    Ungood said:
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Or you use difficulty and player skill as a gate. 
    Sounds like a Battle Arena game.
    Lol only to a few.  So what is the minimum time to max progression for it to go from battle arena to MMORPG.

    LOL.. now you talking about time gated games. 

    But here is a heads up, if you don't have the skills to make it to the top of a PvP Arena game, you would not have the skills to do anything but suck at a skill gated MMORPG as well.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 90
    learis1 said:
    Where's the repeat value? You certainly could do this for an MMO, but why??? With zero progression, once you beat something then why beat it again? For better gear? Well then you just introduced progression.

    I can't see how zero progression models would work for MMOs where monetary sustainability typically comes through payments people make over a long-term investment in the game. What long term appeal is there for zero progression? Pretty much just pvp I guess. But then why waste so much money making it an MMO in the first place when that's unecessary?
    Horizontal progression is still progression. Also time-sinks are introduced in more ways than just level/gear level grinds.

    Repeat value could come from several sources. Like in any game the first priority would have to be enjoyable content...you might want to do it more than once because it is fun. I think a well designed game would hopefully have people be open to rerunning a dungeon at least a few times regardless of upgrades. 

    One system could be that all mobs in the world drop currency with bosses dropping the most. The currency is needed to achieve any goals such as buying plots for land, or saddles that you need to tame mounts, or cosmetic gear that might change your class if you get all the pieces in a set and the new class alters your rotation. Engaging with content could then be any mix of being led by story, being led by what you want to do in the world, customisation or just curiosity. Maybe not compelling enough reason to play for all mmo players but large amounts of mmo players are already playing for these reasons.

    As to why make an mmo without levels? Because vertical progression has its downsides and it wouldn't hurt for a game to be designed that tried circumventing those problems. 
    Gdemamilearis1AlBQuirky
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,057
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?
    Level scaling is in the top MMORPG.  While they aren't levelless they basically play like they are. 


    Well, good thing Classic will fix that and the endless millions of people that stopped playing the sophomoric, moronic children's games with no depth, complexity, or thought required that now pass as mmorpgs will finally have a home again.  And it will have glorious levels.  
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 90
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?
    Every mmo on the market currently has elements of horizontal progression or cosmetic and achievement goals. Probably everyone here has enjoyed non-vertical progression content at some point. FFXIV currently has large chunks of this kind of content and the pvp currently has zero vertical progression although it isn't the focus of the game.

    No one has had the guts to commit to making an mmo that doesn't have levels that I know of because so many people are used to a system they can't see past. It is a bit of a Catch 22, no one wants to make something risky because people are vocally against something that isn't the norm so it never gets proven that things could work differently, then people claim that that is proof it can't be done differently.
    Gdemami
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