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MMO with no leveling

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,541
    edited May 30
    Dauzqul said:
    It would take a VERY immersive world to pull this off, e.g., deep player economy (hardcore crafting, social trades, player cities, player shopping malls), complex and entertaining combat, and an endless supply of aesthetics (armor, clothing, weapons, cloaks, mounts).

    Jedi Academy-style combat, Second Life-style social players, and a gigantic world.

    I'm in!
    Not really. In Most MMOs already, the majority of players are max level and play in the game world for years without leveling again until level expansion.

    Take Guild Wars 2 for example. Most of us are level 80. The whole game scales. So imagine if there was no level. The game would pretty much be the exact same, minus the original 1 to 80 grind/gated....
    I don't think so. I read somewhere one that it is a minority by a very large margin that even reach Max level.
    That's in regard to accounts that purchase the game. Most people quit before reaching max level because the level grind is a boring grindy grandfathered mechanic. Those players justifiably Quit.
    Most players that play are max level or have max level main characters. We do endgame gameplay, which in Gw2 is everything.  Take away the 1-80 level grind and the game pretty much stay the exact same.
    No it wasn't they were taking about the current active population. It want to say only 10% but can't remember the details.

    My personal belief is that there are less people at Max level than leveling. At Max I think most roll  alts.
    Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,043
    edited May 30
    The problem continues to be that all developers (and players) are looking for the "one game to rule them all" and insisting that they have to appeal to pretty much every person on the planet.

    RPGs were always niche
    MMOs were always niche
    A few games broke those barriers

    Instead of recognizing that those few games are the outliers we continue to argue and debate as though there is one single answer to the right type of game that will appeal to everyone.

    If there was a formula for fun then things would be so much easier...


    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    SovrathGdemamiKyleranHatefullAlBQuirky

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,930
    Sovrath said:
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    jusomdude said:
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
    That's a ridiculous comparison.  Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
    You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.

    Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year. 

    Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.

    You are looking for what we used to call Adventure  games like Kings Quest,  Myst and the like.

    Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason.  Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away. 

    Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.  
    MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?

    Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively :)
    People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact.

    Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.
    The story of two hunters Fred and Bob. 

    20 years ago they built their guns by hand before they could hunt.  This was their tradition and they looked forward to it.  After the building part they got into their real joy hunting.

    As time went along new kids came along and they didnt want to waste time building guns.  Manufacturers streamlined the parts so the build didn't take long at all.  Fred bitches and moans about this. Bob embraced the changes because he is tired of building guns.  

    Bob admits his real joy is hunting and not gun building.  Bob expresses he wants to buy a store bought gun. Fred tells Bob he is better off skeet shooting then hunting with that fake gun.  Fred looks at his gun and Bob's gun and they are identical despite him building his gun. Fred refuses to accept it. 
    Worst analogy (allegory) ever?
    It actually makes a lot of sense.  It is not perfect.  Just fits the mindset of many MMORPG players and likely developers. Dogmatic rules of how things must be done. 

    If this guy wants a Legend of Zelda online to play with friends and an online world... why should he be told to play a BR? 
    I don't think it has anything to do with how it "must" be done.

    People are showing up for a certain experience. 

    Sure, there could be an mmorpg without leveling. And for those people who want that experience, they would show up. But, we've already had people who don't like, for example, Guild Wars 2 as it doesn't give them a sense of progression. So, they don't show up. For those people playing Elder Scrolls Online only to have them implement the "one tamriel" and making it feel like everything they encounter is the same (not really true but people feel it is) then they don't play anymore.

    A developer could just make an mmorpg without any progression but since their only examples are mmorpg's with leveling, it's a bit risky. The people investing in these games might not think it's viable.

    They could go ahead with a kickstarter or some such thing but so far kickstarted mmorpg's haven't done well.

    And once they get it done (assuming they get it done) if it's not a hit then that's just another nail in the coffin for similar games. Even if this game wasn't made well and that contributed more to its failure than the type of game it was.

    It sounds to me like you are looking for a more massive version of Minecraft. It could be done but there are definitely people who don't like to build so there needs to be something for them. And if that's raiding or pvp there needs to be enough new content to keep them coming back. I think it's possible but what developer is going to step up to the plate and will they be able to be successful?




    Maybe.  I believe the genre was trending towards levelless gameplay. 

    WoW, ESO, GW2 do level scaling and for a reason. Why spend millions on assets that the vast majority don't use after a few weeks? WoW for example has a huge world that is empty. Almost all of the people are in the latest expansion.

    You add in how themeparks were being refined with less and less grind it is easy to see how they could become MMO Action Adventure.  
    Gdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,930
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Just to interject some things.

    When people talk about games with No Grind, No Leveling, Everyone Equal, and it's all based on skill, this invariably falls to PvP games, as PvE games with the limits of AI, at best can set a bar, and everyone who can pass that bar keeps... Well.. I am going to say progressing, but it's not really the right word, as zero grind, zero leveling, means zero progress, but, moving on.

    So, when someone lists a criteria like "Zero Grind" and says this includes any kind of grind, no grind at all, and no leveling, no power ups, everyone starts even.. everyone stays even.

    Well, one of the most well known kinds of games out there, that provide that, as well as a huge player base to work from, is a Battle Royal.  Think of this way, in a BR game, you will always jump into a zone with 100 other people, and a million people could be playing that game, and truth is, you could end up facing thousands upon thousands of different opponents, as the 100 people you played with last time, may not be at all similar to the 100 people you played against this time.

    Battle Royal Games also allow for team based play, and they even level that one out as well, where you can play in Arenas that have 2 person teams, and everyone there is a two person team, up to 6 person teams (Fortnight provides this at least) so you can play with your friends very easy in these games.

    The main reason why these "Other" games get suggested, is because they already meet all the criteria that some people express they want. You give out a list of what you are looking for, and if that looks like it tags a Battle Royal game, well, it should be no surprise that people are going to suggest you play that kind of game, as it already exists, and meets all the criterias you have expressed you want. 

    That is like saying:

    You: "I like golf, but, what if as opposed to clubs, we hit a ball with a big Stick, and then Run in a Huge Square like pattern while other people try to find the ball before I finish my run, why can't Golf be like that?"

    Everyone Else: "Because That would be Baseball"

    You: "But I don't want to play Baseball, I want to play Golf, but, without the clubs and little balls and trying to get it into the cup, I want to play Golf where I get to hit the ball with a big stick and have other people try to find the ball and tag me, before I finish my victory lap.!"

    Everyone else: It really sounds like you want to play Baseball.

    You: Why does everyone tell me to play baseball.. No.. No.. No.. I want to play Golf.

    Starting to see how this looks from the other side of things?
    It doesn't make sense because you have no clue of the concept.  Or you do but have such disdain that your being obtuse.  Doesn't matter.

    MMO are simply genres that have been translated into online games with online worlds. Could very FPS like Planetside.  It could even be a hypothetical Action Adventure like Legend of Zelda online. There are no hard rules to what can and can't be done. A BR has no world and is no where near what the OP is about.  You don't have dungeons, raids or anything like that. You sound dumb.

    What you are describing doesn't fit at all.  OP is saying they want basketball without the 3 point shot.  You are saying play I should play football because getting two points from a safety is the same as scoring a basket.  Just sounds dumb.  
    Ah, the personal insults.. 

    Well, thanks. I'd return with some snide comment.. but I am a better person than that.
    I actually apologize for personal insults.  
    AlBQuirky
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited May 30
    You add in how themeparks were being refined with less and less grind
    ...they were not. It's utter nonsense that just shows how off you are.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,930
    Gdemami said:
    You add in how themeparks were being refined with less and less grind
    ...they were not. It's utter nonsense that just shows how off you are.
    State example of how MMORPG have trended towards being grindy or find another thread to troll.  
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    State example of how MMORPG have trended towards being grindy
    That is not how it works.

    You make those claims, you back them up with evidence and/or some rational argument.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,930
    edited May 30
    Gdemami said:
    State example of how MMORPG have trended towards being grindy
    That is not how it works.

    You make those claims, you back them up with evidence and/or some rational argument.
    Vanilla WoW has more grind modern WoW.  Evidence: I played both.  I leveled with no assistance to level 80 in modern and leveled up to 45 in vanilla with assistance.

    Now put up or troll elsewhere. 
    GdemamiMMOExposedHatefull
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    Vanilla WoW has more grind modern WoW.  Evidence: I played both.  I leveled with no assistance to level 80 in modern and leveled up to 45 in vanilla with assistance.
    ...my bad. I forgot I am asking you something you can't provide.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,930
    Gdemami said:
    Vanilla WoW has more grind modern WoW.  Evidence: I played both.  I leveled with no assistance to level 80 in modern and leveled up to 45 in vanilla with assistance.
    ...my bad. I forgot I am asking you something you can't provide.
    I gave you evidence.  You gave nothing to refute it.  Should be easy right.  So my evidence wins.  Modern MMORPG are less grindy than old MMORPG.

    Gdemami
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,541
    I think he's right. Many consider leveling to be a grind. Objectively leveling is typically faster in games today than in games 10-15+ years ago. Therefore grinding is less.
    KyleranGdemamiAlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,414
    I think he's right. Many consider leveling to be a grind. Objectively leveling is typically faster in games today than in games 10-15+ years ago. Therefore grinding is less.
    For discussion like this, we need a clear definition.
    For "Grind", I'd say that's anything that you repeat exactly the same, over and over again.

    Once upon a time....

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,930
    I think he's right. Many consider leveling to be a grind. Objectively leveling is typically faster in games today than in games 10-15+ years ago. Therefore grinding is less.
    For discussion like this, we need a clear definition.
    For "Grind", I'd say that's anything that you repeat exactly the same, over and over again.
    People have been talking about the grind and grinding out levels since EQ.  It's just repetition in MMO speak. 
    Amaranthar
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,092
    Kyleran said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    jusomdude said:
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
    That's a ridiculous comparison.  Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
    You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.

    Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year. 

    Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.

    You are looking for what we used to call Adventure  games like Kings Quest,  Myst and the like.

    Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason.  Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away. 

    Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.  
    MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?

    Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively :)
    People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact. :D

    Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.

    A game with no progression is akin to mountain climbing by circling the base instead of going for the top.

    I'm sure it would still be an adventure but who really bothers doing it? But hey, for those who enjoy it, feel free to call it mountain circling,  just don't mess with our climbing, or MMORPGs.

    :)
    Lol, what you talking about.  I'm pretty sure almost all MMORPG assume RP stands for role playing.  

    That being said, I think most (not sure what percentage)  RPG players prefer an RPG with progression.  So a non progression RPG isn't mainstream. 
    Kyleran
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,885
    AAAMEOW said:
    Kyleran said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    jusomdude said:
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
    That's a ridiculous comparison.  Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
    You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.

    Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year. 

    Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.

    You are looking for what we used to call Adventure  games like Kings Quest,  Myst and the like.

    Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason.  Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away. 

    Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.  
    MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?

    Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively :)
    People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact. :D

    Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.

    A game with no progression is akin to mountain climbing by circling the base instead of going for the top.

    I'm sure it would still be an adventure but who really bothers doing it? But hey, for those who enjoy it, feel free to call it mountain circling,  just don't mess with our climbing, or MMORPGs.

    :)
    Lol, what you talking about.  I'm pretty sure almost all MMORPG assume RP stands for role playing.  

    That being said, I think most (not sure what percentage)  RPG players prefer an RPG with progression.  So a non progression RPG isn't mainstream. 
    My sort of tongue in cheek commentary often escapes others... .or...

    It's a joke son.....
    Vermillion_RaventhalHatefull

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,930
    I figured themepark MMO would become something more akin to looter shooters without the looting.  

    Quick leveling or to no levels  Classes with clear roles and distinct action roles.  32 player city hubs and with smaller open world. Solo and 2-8 man missions, 8 man dungeons and 20 man raids. Gear being more solutions and gated content keys. 
    Gdemami
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 926
    blamo2000 said:
    I played GW2 for a solid chunk.  I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic.  When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting.  But even then people claimed there wasn't.  Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.  
    Nobody said GW2 didnt have item progression.  It has levels as well. What we talking about here is that the level grind isnt needed since most of us play at max level which scales the whole world. It's not needed to still have the same progression mechanics as endgame in most other MMOs. 
    In WoW and ESO most people play at max level.  Any popular game with tons of players has most people playing at max level.  I know ESO scales the world.  I think WoW does too now.

    How is the progression mechanics different?  You get better items and equip them, right?

    I didn't last long enough in GW2 to get to max level, and I haven't played WoW in years and years, and I didn't play ESo to max level either.  

    What, specifically, is different in them now that the world scales?  How did this change mechanics?  Instead of running raids you just clear maps for various stuff that aren't item upgrades?  

    I did play DCUO at end game for a while.  I'm not sure if its like that with the constant grind for finding costume piece sets and clues or whatnot for skill points.  I know I'm not a fan of that.  

    GW2, ESO, and WOW have a level grind to max level.  That is a 100% fact.  If you are saying the games stay the same play-wise and you keep doing exactly what you were doing leveling up at max level, instead of like in old-wow and most older mmorpgs where what you did to level and what you do at max is very different, okay.  I can see that.  

    So are you arguing for not stop-leveling experience, instead of no leveling then?  What's the difference?  
    Gdemami
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 1,968
    The problem continues to be that all developers (and players) are looking for the "one game to rule them all" and insisting that they have to appeal to pretty much every person on the planet.

    RPGs were always niche
    MMOs were always niche
    A few games broke those barriers

    Instead of recognizing that those few games are the outliers we continue to argue and debate as though there is one single answer to the right type of game that will appeal to everyone.

    If there was a formula for fun then things would be so much easier...


    90% of games have RP element in them > so RPG were niche
    billions people online in some kind of massive multiplayer  , mostly for social interface > MMOs were niche
    How about admit that those guy who failed are waste of money idiot ?

    They had money
    They had skill
    but they failed to put things together . That's what happen in past 3 decades .

    There are formula for fun , but make player stress bring more money so they never did .

    Ever since those guy start made game as service instead an object , gaming gone down hill .
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.

    The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.

    To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc,  and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.

    That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.

    This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.

    Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.

    In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.

    So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
    AlBQuirkySteelhelmKyleran
  • Quizar1973Quizar1973 Member UncommonPosts: 236
    But not everyone wants to PvP....Alot of peeps wanna Lvl with PvE....It would be perfect for a Striclly PvP game...
    No one shall Rent space in my head!!!!!  B)
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,930
    Ungood said:
    Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.

    The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.

    To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc,  and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.

    That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.

    This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.

    Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.

    In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.

    So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
    Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.  
    MMOExposedKyleran
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.

    The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.

    To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc,  and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.

    That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.

    This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.

    Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.

    In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.

    So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
    Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.  
    What the hell are you talking about? Class quests? 

    Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on. 
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,031
    I remember in EQ when players started complaining often about having to level their characters, so what was their solution? They started buying fully finished characters on ebay and for several hundred dollars.
    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,930
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.

    The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.

    To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc,  and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.

    That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.

    This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.

    Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.

    In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.

    So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
    Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.  
    What the hell are you talking about? Class quests? 

    Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on. 
    Uh, you have a quest you learn how you to use fireball.  Next quest you learn how to use firestorm.  Next quest teaches you how to Ice blast.  
    MMOExposedGdemami
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,943
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    I played GW2 for a solid chunk.  I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic.  When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting.  But even then people claimed there wasn't.  Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.  
    Nobody said GW2 didnt have item progression.  It has levels as well. What we talking about here is that the level grind isnt needed since most of us play at max level which scales the whole world. It's not needed to still have the same progression mechanics as endgame in most other MMOs. 
    In WoW and ESO most people play at max level.  Any popular game with tons of players has most people playing at max level.  I know ESO scales the world.  I think WoW does too now.

    How is the progression mechanics different?  You get better items and equip them, right?

    I didn't last long enough in GW2 to get to max level, and I haven't played WoW in years and years, and I didn't play ESo to max level either.  

    What, specifically, is different in them now that the world scales?  How did this change mechanics?  Instead of running raids you just clear maps for various stuff that aren't item upgrades?  

    I did play DCUO at end game for a while.  I'm not sure if its like that with the constant grind for finding costume piece sets and clues or whatnot for skill points.  I know I'm not a fan of that.  

    GW2, ESO, and WOW have a level grind to max level.  That is a 100% fact.  If you are saying the games stay the same play-wise and you keep doing exactly what you were doing leveling up at max level, instead of like in old-wow and most older mmorpgs where what you did to level and what you do at max is very different, okay.  I can see that.  

    So are you arguing for not stop-leveling experience, instead of no leveling then?  What's the difference?  
    The subject is regarding removing levels from MMORPGs. Aka my argument is that you dont need traditional character levels grind in MMOs.

    Some here counterargument was that all MMOs need progression.

    Which I elaborate that I nor anybody else ever said to remove all progression from MMOs. We said just remove the player levels. It's not a needed mechanic to have a meaningful progression. It actually burdens gameplay having character levels and gated world.

    I clarified some more, GW2's endgame is 100% level scaled, meaning you still progress in low level zones as you do in high level zones. If the level mechanics were removed from GW2, nothing about a player's play style and progression would change compared to a playing who is level 80. Nothing would change because the whole world is one level, aka endgame.

    In WoW most of your time is at max level, which rarely will you go back to low level meaninglessness areas. These areas become wasted content. But if WoW didnt have levels, ALL ZONES WOULD BE USEFUL GAME CONTENT. No such thing as outleveling content in a WoW mmo with no levels.  You still would have progression like any max level player does in WoW currently. As in Dungeons,  Raids, Gear, mounts, skins, etc. Your choice on how you want to go about doing it. Again no different from a WoW player at endgame. 

    So the argument that a levelless system is void of progression is flawed. i hope I was able to respectful clear that up for you to understand. 
    Gdemami

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