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Slow by design as a feature...Great !

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,463
People want something new. Well now will have it. 

Slow by design

CohhCarnage mentioned this in the latest Pantheon stream. Obliviously anyone half following development knows that, but by him looking into the camera and saying that, it hit home...…. This art is so old it's NEW ! 

I sit here and ponder this with all it's advantages: 
Mmorpgs give the players abilities.  Yet going on 10 years, none matter but simply spam buttons.  Pantheon doesn't go one step beyond but two by really making your "hot bar count". This feature is 20 years old. 

You may say 20 years old ?.... that's not good ! 
Well, maybe it is.  People like to think !..... that's why Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Divinity: Original Sin and so many turn based games are so popular.  Add the challenge of diversity of others changing the battles dynamics... This makes it more intriguing for the thinking persons set of features. 

Boring to watch, very exciting to play ! 
For the actual player, they'll be on the edge of their seat for the entire encounter.  Awareness is the key watching every sliest move of everything on the players screen. People love this young and old. 


I really want that next ability.... It will change everything.... I miss the want !
immodiumViper482bcbullyEronakis
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Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,463
    Do you want to "press a button" and make it count ?... or do you want to press many buttons with no danger ?

    That's the question.
    bcbully
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,524
    Do you want to "press a button" and make it count ?... or do you want to press many buttons with no danger ?

    That's the question.
    No no no, you want to press many buttons with danger, not the two options you mentioned above. Slow and with risk of danger, all you have to do now is put the label ‘Depth’ on that and you are done. Well, at least according to some people.

    Also, the idea that many buttons equal depth or strategy is a travesty. A small hotbar with a limited amount of slots so you have to carefully pick your options is much more strategic. Especially if you have modifiers to all that like Diablo 3 does it. 40+ abilities on your screen is just Whack a Mole 2.0, I am looking at you EQ2.

    I think this is what this thread is about, right?....

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Mendeldragonlee66
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    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,463
    lahnmir said:
    Do you want to "press a button" and make it count ?... or do you want to press many buttons with no danger ?

    That's the question.
    No no no, you want to press many buttons with danger, not the two options you mentioned above. Slow and with risk of danger, all you have to do now is put the label ‘Depth’ on that and you are done. Well, at least according to some people.

    Also, the idea that many buttons equal depth or strategy is a travesty. A small hotbar with a limited amount of slots so you have to carefully pick your options is much more strategic. Especially if you have modifiers to all that like Diablo 3 does it. 40+ abilities on your screen is just Whack a Mole 2.0, I am looking at you EQ2.

    I think this is what this thread is about, right?....

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    It's more like an open interpretation. 
    As long as the player has to think and take responsibility for their actions.... unlike mindless nothing combat like we had been getting.  
    Hawkaya399
  • WizbuizWizbuiz Member UncommonPosts: 212
    I WANT 200 spells, utility spells, flight, levitate, fun spells makes the game for me. Thats what i hate what had become to wow, u got 40 spells, all damage. We need some fun spells, like night vision, glowing wisps, transform form, change race, shapeshifting spells, whatever makes it fun to be a wizard. and ill gladly have 50 damage spells on top of that, since it aint pvp focused it shouldent be a problem imo.
    AdamantineKyleranSteelhelmHawkaya399
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,463
    edited May 2019
    Wizbuiz said:
    I WANT 200 spells, utility spells, flight, levitate, fun spells makes the game for me. Thats what i hate what had become to wow, u got 40 spells, all damage. We need some fun spells, like night vision, glowing wisps, transform form, change race, shapeshifting spells, whatever makes it fun to be a wizard. and ill gladly have 50 damage spells on top of that, since it aint pvp focused it shouldent be a problem imo.
    WoW, nice I would like a lot of spells too. even fun stuff. 

    Even a few talent trees would be nice.  Even if their were five different viable ways to play your character within one talent...... A great game designer would make this possible along with having to be smart on how you go about things. 



    I remember my Vanilla WoW Warlock had so many abilities, so much diversity.  I remember if for some reason I didn't play for a few days and relooked at my abilities I would play differently. 

    Thats diversity with in the class and diversity within the talent. Fun :)
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,575
    I've watched several videos from Pantheon....Slow is not better, its boring.
    blueturtle13MendelbcbullyKajidourdenKyleranKiori001
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,658
    1 If they played FFXI they would understand how much fun it is to have a sub class instead of altaholic design s

    2 If they ever played a Red Mage or even say a Blue Mage in FFXI they would understand how much fun a Mage class could be if doing more than a simple mezzer/dps.

    Wow was a poor example of how to do classes,i always felt handcuffed,like i could automate the combat and still come out the same.The EQ series was very similar,that is why i have never liked combat outside of FFXI and i assume why Square never repeated it in FFXIV because it was too open ended,tough to keep a hold of if pvp was in the game but nobody cared about pvp in FFXI.

    Food/drink,again done way better in FFXI to the point it often felt badly done in the EQ series.
    I do not like body pulls,sure it should be there but not to the point that is THE way to start the aggro pull.There should be a well thought out "weighted"system to aggro and NO METERS,players should have to learn their class and understand how to function within a group to not draw aggro all the time.
    A group should feel like a group,not players showing off their dps,not some simple failsafe mez.

    There is sooooo much room to learn from other games and IMPROVE every system within mmorpg and imo they NEED to be improved because i do not and will not play anything that is like EQ or Wow,neither of those games are where we should be at in 2019.

    As to the mention of LOT'S of spells/abilities,sure but NOT how the EQ series did it,where it often felt like repeated ideas and too many choices that often would be spammed or ignored.What i am saying is various CHOICES should have a REASON,example,we are fighting some ICE creatures,ok time to get out the Fire line of spells.What i am referring to is DEPTH of design,i want depth/quality over quantity.


    delete5230

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,463
    I've watched several videos from Pantheon....Slow is not better, its boring.
    But watch health meters, their all over the place.  You as a spectator are not feeling the effects of trying to stay alive and counting on others.  Lets add the stuns and interrupts too. 

    Cant imagine by watching.

    However it could be a little more exciting, I'll give you that.
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 3,096
    It will keep the twitchy kids out....I'm game.
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,463
    edited May 2019
    DMKano said:
    Slow by design is not delete5230 said:
    People want something new. Well now will have it. 

    Slow by design

    CohhCarnage mentioned this in the latest Pantheon stream. Obliviously anyone half following development knows that, but by him looking into the camera and saying that, it hit home...…. This art is so old it's NEW ! 

    I sit here and ponder this with all it's advantages: 
    Mmorpgs give the players abilities.  Yet going on 10 years, none matter but simply spam buttons.  Pantheon doesn't go one step beyond but two by really making your "hot bar count". This feature is 20 years old. 

    You may say 20 years old ?.... that's not good ! 
    Well, maybe it is.  People like to think !..... that's why Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Divinity: Original Sin and so many turn based games are so popular.  Add the challenge of diversity of others changing the battles dynamics... This makes it more intriguing for the thinking persons set of features. 

    Boring to watch, very exciting to play ! 
    For the actual player, they'll be on the edge of their seat for the entire encounter.  Awareness is the key watching every sliest move of everything on the players screen. People love this young and old. 


    I really want that next ability.... It will change everything.... I miss the

    it's so old- it's new.. lol  - no its just old.



    Slow by design is the original EQ1 system - it had a 6 second combat round which was perfect for the old dialup internet as latency was atrocious back in 1999 when EQ1 launched.

    The other thing is EQ1 is a DikuMUD based game so slow pace combat was again intended.

    Your comparison with turn based games is irrelevant because Pantheon not EQ1 are not turn based.

    Lol edge of the seat combat.... in EQ1/Pantheon???

    No - just no. You can read books, watch Netflix and play EQ1... i raided in EQ1 while also actively reading books.

    Once you have your regular guild group or guild raid - the game is 100% safe unless you are doing a brand new raid that needs to have rotations and new bosses figured out. 

    The only time EQ1 was hard - undeargeared, badly put together groups that didn't understand their classes and played poorly.

    Or solo players taking on group content when undergeared.

    My 2c after 7years of EQ1 



    In idea.... Why don't you make a post about something, anything so we can discuss.  Right or wrong at least something.... Last I seen this from you is when you kept promoting Trion games for some odd reason, where no one gave a rats butt about. 

    Seems your on this site to prove wrongness with EVERYONE !

    Hit and run...coward !
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,211
    Every time you hit an ability/spell/whatever, it should be a choice. 
    That is you should always be in the process of choosing which ability to use next.  Games that allow you to just order your spells from max damage to least and hit them in that order as they come up, or worse that allow you to multibind them so you always just spam a single key and they fire from most damage to least have very little game in them.

    Real games have choices you make as you play them.
    delete5230Kiori001
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523
    Instead of having someone tell you what you want, how about using that other 90% brain capacity that goes unused and decide on your own?

    You need some politician telling you how it should be... mind you, it's never how it will be.
    You need some game designer telling you how it will be... mind you, it's never how it will be.
    You need the news to tell you what's really going on... mind you, it's never 100% bias free.

    If you even listen to the schill, you're already in their camp.  You're either for it or against it... not because you came to the conclusion on your own, but because someone else already told you that it was so.

    I swear you get paid to make posts.  You don't add to the conversation at all, you just throw a match into a room of gasoline and walk away.  You are the problem, not the solution.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,463
    svann said:
    Every time you hit an ability/spell/whatever, it should be a choice. 
    That is you should always be in the process of choosing which ability to use next.  Games that allow you to just order your spells from max damage to least and hit them in that order as they come up, or worse that allow you to multibind them so you always just spam a single key and they fire from most damage to least have very little game in them.

    Real games have choices you make as you play them.
    This is great, another way of putting it among so many.

    I'm sure we all have ruffly the same wants but it hard to put in words, so we say it in so many ways.... This is another way of expressing it. 


    My other way is, pressing an ability, then react differentially with the next depending on the targets reaction to the first. I don't need fast action combat, I could react and cause great impact based on a decision of a button.... and have an exciting time doing it :) 
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,428
    I fully agree that one should need to think before pressing a button, and that I therefore want a lot of buttons.

    Thats my main complaint about what I've heard so far about Pantheon, that they're going for a Guild Wars approach - very few abilities - instead of a Vanguard approach - quite a lot of abilities to choose from.

    Though I have to point out that if your caster can indeed do 200 spells, very likely 40 of them will be damage spells.

    But damage spells dont have to be simple either. For example certain damage types might actually heal certain opponents, or buff them in other ways. There might be recast timers on certain spells. Other spells might need a precondition to work. Other spells might weaken the opponent in a certain way, so certain other damage spells work better on them. Etc etc etc.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 712
    A wack a mole memory test. Reminds me of this game:

    The game is a circular disc divided into four quarter circle buttons each with a different color In the center are the game mode controls
    Vanguard rotations were situational but a single hot bar for a fight was adequate.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,044
    I've watched several videos from Pantheon....Slow is not better, its boring.
    Yes, yes, yes. Everything about MMOs is boring I'm sure. If it isn't slow combat, it's the grind of never ending progression, whether it's for new factions or new gear. Let me explain this for the 1000th time so people understand the reason for slow progression. It was designed that way not only so people could pause and relax with social interaction, but also because subscriptions were for long term financial gain. If the game progressed quickly, you'd end up with people doing content in a month and unsubscribing.

    Instead, what we have now are F2P games with no subscription and instead, gaming companies make money by charging players for inventory space, mounts, EXP pots, fast travel, bank space and other nickel and dime shenanigans.

    So, why not allow people to play what they like? Right? You want fast paced combat like BDO? No problem! You got it. Then when you've finished the current content in less than a month, you can come back here and bitch about no good MMOs worth playing. ADHD has taken over the standard norms of gameplay. So what if Pantheon is catering to the old school days of relaxing gameplay? Not everyone needs to play a game like their taking a snort of cocaine.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,428
    rounner said:

    Vanguard rotations were situational but a single hot bar for a fight was adequate.
    ROTFL nope.

    Thats just completely absurd.

    At lowlevel, sure.

    If you didnt cared for efficiency, sure.

    Otherwise, nope. I always had 6-7 bars of my hot bar filled. The 8th hotbar was reserved for crafting and the 9th for harvesting, thats why I avoided them. Also I couldnt switch more than 6 hotbars on a whim anyway, so that was the limit and Vanguard always used them up, on any character.

    I also had the three other bars filled, and my healers also filled the bar next to the players for quick heals.

    Single hotbar ? I managed to macro my tank so well that I could mostly stay on one, but that was the exception, simply because one could macro that class so well. And I still needed separate macro lines for defensive and offensive, and there was stuff on the other bars for out of combat.





    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,793
    Pantheon's combat intrigues me for this reason. It's slow and methodical and the devs have stated that there will only be one hot bar. That to me is interesting. So many games allow you to have six hotbars on a screen with a bunch of crazy macros hooked up so you can hit your combo. Pantheon is striving to be different. Perhaps your fighting a group of enemies and one combo would be good on one but not another. You can't switch during combat (i am guessing) so you have to decide before the fight which enemy you want to deal with instead.

    This to me is fascinating. Sure to onlookers the game LOOKS boring but from every streamer I have seen play it they seem invested. I don't care if a game looks boring. I don't stream games nor do I watch people on Twitch. So its one of those things that as long as I am playing it and it is exciting while doing so I don't care what it looks like to the person standing over my shoulder 
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  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,211
    rounner said:
    A wack a mole memory test. Reminds me of this game:

    The game is a circular disc divided into four quarter circle buttons each with a different color In the center are the game mode controls
    Vanguard rotations were situational but a single hot bar for a fight was adequate.
    For my bard that was mostly true.  That is, 90% of my combat interactions were bar #1.  But I did have other bars with situational items/skills that I sometimes used.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,163
    "Obliviously" anyone half following development knows that.

    Subliminal slip perhaps, or a new way to better understand posts such as this?

    ;)

    If the game play is "slow by design" it needs to be carefully explained in what way does this improve the player experience? 

    Just having a lot more buttons to push is a mechanic,  but not necessarily a feature until a solid game play benefit can be associated to it. 

    As noted previously, slower combat was actually done due to latency considerations, that it turned out to be fun for some players is actually an unintentional (by the Devs) benefit which early MMORPGs were full of.

    Pushing said buttons more slowly doesn't make the combat more fun, however if the game play requires giving the player more time to think through their options before reacting then perhaps it is a good idea.

    Until players get to actually try out the near finished product it will be difficult to determine with any certainty whether a particular design decision was good or not.


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  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,173
    edited May 2019
    I'm not wanting combat to be glacial or mindless.

    But I'm not looking to solve a puzzle either. Or have to make twichy decisions in half second intervals.

    But I will never be able to judge the combat by merely watching a stream. I will have to try it and see, once I have that opportunity.


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  • paulythebpaulytheb Member UncommonPosts: 363
    Anything that stops players from RUNNING through a dungeon as fast as possible is a good change in my book.

    Everyone being in such a damned hurry is what makes playing multiplayer no fun.
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  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,236
    paulytheb said:
    Anything that stops players from RUNNING through a dungeon as fast as possible is a good change in my book.

    Everyone being in such a damned hurry is what makes playing multiplayer no fun.
    Unless your playing Quake. Long live Quake! 
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  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 548
    edited May 2019
    Wizbuiz said:
    I WANT 200 spells, utility spells, flight, levitate, fun spells makes the game for me. Thats what i hate what had become to wow, u got 40 spells, all damage. We need some fun spells, like night vision, glowing wisps, transform form, change race, shapeshifting spells, whatever makes it fun to be a wizard. and ill gladly have 50 damage spells on top of that, since it aint pvp focused it shouldent be a problem imo.
    This.

    Think it boils down to mainstream MMORPGs tending to streamline themselves repeatedly until everything is homogenized. And the players who just can't get over not having cheatmode in MMO's.
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 548
    edited May 2019
    Kyleran said:
    "Obliviously" anyone half following development knows that.

    Subliminal slip perhaps, or a new way to better understand posts such as this?

    ;)

    If the game play is "slow by design" it needs to be carefully explained in what way does this improve the player experience? 

    Just having a lot more buttons to push is a mechanic,  but not necessarily a feature until a solid game play benefit can be associated to it. 

    As noted previously, slower combat was actually done due to latency considerations, that it turned out to be fun for some players is actually an unintentional (by the Devs) benefit which early MMORPGs were full of.

    Pushing said buttons more slowly doesn't make the combat more fun, however if the game play requires giving the player more time to think through their options before reacting then perhaps it is a good idea.

    Until players get to actually try out the near finished product it will be difficult to determine with any certainty whether a particular design decision was good or not.


    Another reason for the slower combat was to allow for chat. This is why autoattack was so strongly favored back then, before voice chat really exploded onto the scene. It freed up the hands. But in truth, EQ was modeled after MUDs, and maybe that's relevant too.

    As for fast action gameplay in an online setting, I don't think there was any large scale MMO with fast action. However, Diablo existed back then, being a strongly action-oriented MP RPG, and FPS's were common. I played Tribes and Quake 2 in 1998. Definitely having a modem didn't stop anybody from having fast action multiplayer gameplay, but it may have prevented the same kind of gameplay in an MMO. It would have limited the userbase to the major cities and nearby areas where the servers are located. For something like Quake 2 it was practical, but wouldn't be for an MMO. Same thing for Diablo, although Diablo was more playable on worse latency.

    However, having come away almost immediately after playing Action Quake 2, Everquest felt very action-oriented to me, disgrearding the downtime. I played on PvP servers too, so maybe that was one reason why. There was almost never a dull moment.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    Kyleran
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