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Why MMORPG have complex combat formula ?

iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 1,970
edited May 8 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Why not simple DMG minus DEF ?
Post edited by iixviiiix on
GdemamiSteelhelm

Comments

  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,748
    Inherited from pen and paper systems that actually use that complexity to add class depth.  

    In newer games it's used to "awe the user into stupidity", and leverage that complexity for cash shop bonuses like enchantment/stat-rerolls and similar.   Or in sub games like WoW, to keep you hungry for more grind.
    HatefulliixviiiixGdemamiOctagon7711RueTheWhirl

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • GaladournGaladourn Member RarePosts: 1,802
    has to do with difficulty scaling, there are many more parameters to difficulty in combat besides damage vs defense (special abilities, glancing blows, parry, deflect, miss, etc. all these need to be emulated somehow for extra depth in class design and abilities).
    HatefullCryomatrix
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,276
    Err ...

    If at all it would be DMG - DEF, not DPS - DEF.

    DPS = damage per second, i.e. not any actual damage ever received, but the average per second.

    DMG = damage of an attack

    DEF = some defense (I persume)

    Most importantly DPS is something you can compute after the effect, not during the attack.

    And yes that simple formula DMG - DEF might be used by some. Its only one of the possibilities though and its not really that great to begin with. An attacker will try to find a weapon with low attack speed, but high damage to counter such a computation, so you would want armor to have additional properties to make it more interesting, for example a percent reduction instad of a fixed one.

    Steelhelm4507Ungood
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 1,970
    Err ...

    If at all it would be DMG - DEF, not DPS - DEF.

    DPS = damage per second, i.e. not any actual damage ever received, but the average per second.

    DMG = damage of an attack

    DEF = some defense (I persume)

    Most importantly DPS is something you can compute after the effect, not during the attack.

    And yes that simple formula DMG - DEF might be used by some. Its only one of the possibilities though and its not really that great to begin with. An attacker will try to find a weapon with low attack speed, but high damage to counter such a computation, so you would want armor to have additional properties to make it more interesting, for example a percent reduction instad of a fixed one.

    Thank for the DPS notice , change it to DMG now .

    BTW , in case of your example , why you need percent reduction while you can raise the DEF stat of armor ?

    Also there are cases with formula like DMG is few hundreds , but DEF is few thousands (most likely WOW clones)
    With ton of complex stats but mostly useless .
    Steelhelm
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,732
    Because players of these games appreciate depth and some complexity -  at least until recently.
    RueTheWhirl4507

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    I hope you don't apply that type of philosophy to your sex life OP.  :D 


    Steelhelm
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

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  • VelifaxVelifax Member UncommonPosts: 413
    It's a balancing act between using skill and aim and timing to achieve a hit and using stats earned through gameplay. When action isn't feasible we insert complexity via formulae. Since MMOs began blurring RPGs and action, this complexity has become mixed as well. Thus we see tab targeting, distance calcs, miss rates, etc.
    4507
  • WarEnsembleWarEnsemble Member UncommonPosts: 209
    I hope you don't apply that type of philosophy to your sex life OP.  :D 


    Not really sure wtf you're trying to say here.
    Steelhelm
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member RarePosts: 2,767
    complex?
    RueTheWhirl
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 839
    It should be DMG - Feelings hurt by DMG = Size of Frowny Face.

    Gut Out!
    4507

    What, me worry?

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,983
    Have you ever played a game that used that formula?  It fairly quickly becomes obvious why it's a bad idea.  You end up in a situation where some mobs can't hurt you at all, or you can't hurt them at all.  It also makes it so that you can't balance quick, weak attacks with slow, strong ones.

    As for which games compute damage that way, I know that Crystalis did.  I can't think of a more recent example.
    4507Galadourn
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,234
    I'm gonna be honest, but there's a bazillion games on the market with DMG vs DEF as their entire combat model.  They're called FPS's.

    RPG's are supposed to be layered affairs where different people can have different concepts of their characters and build them accordingly.  Attributes, Skills, Perks, Avantages, Disadvantages... etc are all supposed to help you build what you want to play rather than simply dropped into the world with the same stuff everyone else has.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,452
    To simply it,damage versus defense does NOT simulate anything.what is and how is defense defined if just a simple formula?What is and how is damage defined?That is why the many different structured formulas from game to game.

    FFXI imo has the best most complex formulas for simulating combat.The use of an ARC gives more realism,it means damage can vary because if all we saw was 20...20..20 ...20 it would look FAKE and just awful.
    No where in real life could you exact the EXACT same damage over and over,impossible.Then you have an added layer or weapon and armor properties,skill/level effects,formula to decide if you hit at all.

    So if games used a simplified formula it would look like this.
    Orc 50 max damage,player 45 defense.So result is Orc does 5 damage every single time and every other Orc does 5 damage every single time,does that appear to be realistic or a good simulation of combat?




    alkarionlog

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,180
    Err ...

    If at all it would be DMG - DEF, not DPS - DEF.

    DPS = damage per second, i.e. not any actual damage ever received, but the average per second.

    DMG = damage of an attack

    DEF = some defense (I persume)

    Most importantly DPS is something you can compute after the effect, not during the attack.

    And yes that simple formula DMG - DEF might be used by some. Its only one of the possibilities though and its not really that great to begin with. An attacker will try to find a weapon with low attack speed, but high damage to counter such a computation, so you would want armor to have additional properties to make it more interesting, for example a percent reduction instad of a fixed one.

    Not here to debate anything, but make an observation.

    When I started Gaming we had:

    Tanks
    Heals
    DD (Damage Dealer)
    Utility/CC

    Over time I noticed people started calling DD Dps, which is wrong(imo). Dps, or high Dps is the goal of a  DD. Sure, any class can do damage, but that was a by-product of playing your position, not the focus. 

    Off topic, sorry, but just a thought I had.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,007
    First pillars of eternity had damage reduction and it became extremely problematic when you encountered monsters with very high damage reduction which forced you to focus on slow hardhitting attacks which made quick weapons obsolete.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,375
    I had to get my calculator out for City of heroes. Same for Anarchy Online too.
    image
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member RarePosts: 2,767
    Shaigh said:
    First pillars of eternity had damage reduction and it became extremely problematic when you encountered monsters with very high damage reduction which forced you to focus on slow hardhitting attacks which made quick weapons obsolete.
    damage reduction is used on rpgs for a long time not only pillars, but in general having a strong one hit weapon against a fast but weak attack is always preferable, since you can crit and insta kill from start. even action give more chances to a strong single attack, you clean mobs fast and take less damage overhall, unless taking damage could be used as reflect or store the damage taken to unleash during the fight, but even so you would only use on boss kind fights

    I don't see any game using "complex" math to do his things, I see mostly lazy people not knowing what each stat do, but even so, basic means bigger numbers=better knowing the math help you do the min/max thing if you jsut want to do your thing just play it
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    iixviiiix said:
    Why not simple DMG minus DEF ?
    Why?

    Well, combat needs to fit the game.

    In a game like Fortnight, it is very simple, all combat is Damage vs Hp with the actual hitting being based on the skill of the player. This is a simple easy, hot join game, that people can jump in and play, with no real thought involved and just let their twitch skill shine.

    In a game like GW2, the combat is far more complex than Fortnight, because the people that play that game want a deeper combat system, they do not want a crudely simple system, in fact, designing a build is a large part of the game itself.

    Then you get into an old school game like DDO, where it has to be the most complex build and gear design system you will ever deal with.

    In short, the combat needs to fit the demographic that the game developers want to target. If they are looking to target a demographic that wants super simple combat style, they make the combat simple and direct as DMG vs DEF, or something equally similar. 

    If they are looking for a demographic of gamers that want to think about their builds, play with checks and counters, and design and gearing being a huge part of the game, they will add in more systems and ways to design how things work.

    I guess you could say, it's all about the Cheese they use to attract the right kind of mouse.
    Gdemami
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